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Posted: 10/19/2003 9:48:25 AM EDT
Alright. Let's get this part over with, "Yes I know it's an Airsoft".

Now with that being said What's the general consensus? My main concern would be in areas regarding lockup to prevent closure under recoil, if that did occur I imagine I'd replace those parts with stronger factory components. I've seen the comments on these boards that the plastic construction on these has the potential to be better than the prototype original Crane unit.

Any thoughts on this beyond just "It's an Airsoft"?

www.combatclub.net/product.php?pid=719
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:58:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 9:59:20 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
I know it's probably not the answer you want but in all seriousness it's a freakin toy! I would not put it on a real weapon. That's just me but you can do what you want with your money and your rifle. I would bet there aren't too many people here who have exprience with the Airsoft Crane stock because most forum members feel like I do about putting fake parts on their weapons. I'm sure even the manufacturer doesn't recommend using it on a real weapon. Save your money, skip the POS Airsoft parts and get Vltor or a Magpul stock.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:45:56 AM EDT
I just love how we all know it's a "POS Airsoft" part, without having even touched it, yes, yojimbo? Awesome, others have been brainwashed into believing that certain products are "real" because they have a name. But, back to answering the poster,instead of bantering with tripe he already knows about. I have no experience with the stock referred to, but the odd plastic "rail" under the buffer tube may impair its function. FWIW, I have Airsoft RAS panels, and they are everything I need them to be. Let's not kid ourselves; this is all plastic.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 11:49:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 12:07:05 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama: I just love how we all know it's a "POS Airsoft" part, without having even touched it, yes, yojimbo?
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Let me ask you this, is it an Airsoft part or a part made for a real weapon? Does the manufacturer claim it can be used for real weapons? If not it's a toy, end of story. On top of that it's FAKE part, a cheap copy and I seriously doubt it can withstand hard use like the real thing. I don't need to touch that stock to tell that it's a POS, I think you know this too. I'm not telling you can't put toys or fake parts on your weapon, that's up to you to decide. As for me, no thanks, I'll pass and spend my money on the REAL thing and help the REAL industry that's making the REAL stuff! It's just like those fake Rolex watches, hey let's not kid ourselves all watches do is tell time...[rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:19:46 PM EDT
I'm sure it will go great with the airsoft SIR.I agree with Yohimbo on this one.I looked into the airsoft Surefire M500's and found out they are not made to be used on real weapons.The fake RAS panels and Grips will be fine but a stock takes more abuse than rail panels or a vertical grip.Not sure why a Vltor wouldn't fit the bill.I'd rather have a real Vltor that does same purpose than a fake look alike Crane stock of questionable sturdiness on a real firearm but that is your business.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:27:11 PM EDT
Ah, so the manufacturer tells you if it's real or not. Awesome; consumer whoring at its finest.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:27:11 PM EDT
I have no expirence with airsoft stuff, but I have heard about some real Crane stocks breaking in the field. If this "toy" is made of lesser material, well, you be the judge of what could happen.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 1:39:06 PM EDT
The APEX glass filled nylon 6 Crane stock is better made than the original, but then again, that's not hard. Early examples were made from substandard materials, and even the later stocks have problems breaking at the latch area. At $240, though, it's more expensive than the vastly superior Magpul stock. I'll probably get one to replace my broken original Crane stock. -Cap'n
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 3:30:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 3:53:59 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama: Ah, so the manufacturer tells you if it's real or not. Awesome; consumer whoring at its finest.
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You don't get it do you? Airsoft guns are not real weapons therefore accessories and parts made for them are not meant to be used on real guns! You don't need the manufacturers to tell you what's real, common sense should be all you need... The reason I feel so strongly about this is because someone new to firearms who doesn't know any better might take your advice and try using toys on their real guns and get themselves hurt or killed! It's fucking unsafe and irresponsible to suggest otherwise! [b]TOY PARTS AND ACCESSORIES HAVE NO PLACE ON REAL WEAPONS![/b]
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:03:07 PM EDT
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid51/pe09f61f3e4e0cc1741e73dfd4ea7bed9/fc9f6df2.jpg[/img] This is a cheap stock that actually WAS supposed to work on a real weapon. Whats worse, this came off a gun I harldy even shoot, and has not seen near the run time, conditions or use my others have. Llama or anyone, if you want to buy cheap stuff, thats ok, you are welcome to it. If your gun is moreso for show than anything, it gets used rarely, and when it does get used it is with the white glove treatment, you may never have a problem with that stuff. Maybe. The fake Knights pannels are not made from the same heat resistant materials the real ones are, they are more brittle and the tabs are not as rugged. If you hardly use them, they may very well work for your applications. I expect about the same to be true of this stock. There is a pretty big AirSoft crew in Jacksonville where I live, and we've talked a bit about the differences and simularities between stuff. Even they laugh when thinkning about using their airsoft gear on real guns. If your gun gets used, or even if you expect you might ever use it on some wild off chance that things get that bad, I would not want something like that on my gun.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:24:04 PM EDT
Airsoft parts or panels may be fine if you want to just run around your house in your underwear and make believe your a special forces commando with your AR but they will fail if you use them for their intended role on a real firearm. Untill I cut my own RAS panels to custom length I did not realise they type of heat resistant materiall they were made of. This is not the same as the Airsoft material which will melt under hard use.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:54:47 PM EDT
Its your choce,but I like my face so I will pass, but please when you get your share your opinions on it. I saw a non airsoft reprodution one on ebay still waiting ont he guy to let know how good they are. FREE
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 4:54:55 PM EDT
I have owned a lot of Airsoft products and I think that many of them would be durable enough for me to personally feel comfortable using on a real rifle. However, that certainly does not go for most of them, and of those, most would not fit exactly onto a real gun. However, the product you are looking at is the debut product of a debut Airsoft company called "Zenith" which has absolutely no reputation even among the Airsoft world. They released this product at the beginning of this month. Considering that, and also considering that it may not even fit right and that it would be a load-bearing part, I would not consider it is a viable option.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 5:10:27 PM EDT
Yes, As stated above! If you have a milspec tube you better know that that airsoft stock will fit onto your milspec tube. If your tube is'nt spec you may still want to consider it may not fit! Too loose and whamo it smacks you in the face! Too tight and it shatters!
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:10:56 PM EDT
I think from the very question itself you should without a doubt go get an airsoft stock, then to finish the whole décor you should then go to Auto Zone and buy one of those fart can exhaust tips with LED lights in the end and clamp it on as the flash suppressor. What is wrong with your brain housing unit??
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:30:36 PM EDT
Guys, you don't need to flame him, for some people money might be of more concern. And SOME airsoft products probably will work fine.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 6:55:36 PM EDT
OK, point taken; but at a cost of US$65.00 for an airsoft stock? If money is an issue $35.00 will buy a real USGI A2 stock all day long at any gun show. I sold my last one for something close to that on eBay. If you shop around $99.00 will buy a “genuine” new style 6 position or fixed Bushy, RRA, etc. with the buffer and spring included. The whole safety factor is an issue that cannot be overlooked.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 7:25:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: Let me ask you this, is it an Airsoft part or a part made for a real weapon? Does the manufacturer claim it can be used for real weapons? If not it's a toy, end of story.
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I suppose there are some actual combat soldiers on this forum, but I'd guess for the other 98% of participants their ARs are toys as well. After all, what do you really do with them? Take them to the range to shoot. Maybe compete in a high-power match. Hot rod them up with all kinds of fancy gimmicks. It's basically all for fun, right? I have 20 firearms, every one of them a toy as far as I'm concerned, even the 44 Magnum.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:01:52 PM EDT
you are talking to the boys who used to say, "it's not a doll, it's an action figure!" you make a good point.
Originally Posted By urbanred:
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: Let me ask you this, is it an Airsoft part or a part made for a real weapon? Does the manufacturer claim it can be used for real weapons? If not it's a toy, end of story.
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I suppose there are some actual combat soldiers on this forum, but I'd guess for the other 98% of participants their ARs are toys as well. After all, what do you really do with them? Take them to the range to shoot. Maybe compete in a high-power match. Hot rod them up with all kinds of fancy gimmicks. It's basically all for fun, right? I have 20 firearms, every one of them a toy as far as I'm concerned, even the 44 Magnum.
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Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:12:33 PM EDT
Well my AR is not a toy.I put it through carbine classes and expect it to save my life if needed to.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 8:46:56 PM EDT
I carry firearms on my person or in my car everywhere I go and they are TOOLS not toys. They are for killing people, not playing with. If I want to play with a gun I have a computer for that.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 9:32:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/19/2003 9:34:12 PM EDT by CJan_NH]
I suppose there are some actual combat soldiers on this forum, but I'd guess for the other 98% of participants their ARs are toys as well. After all, what do you really do with them? Take them to the range to shoot. Maybe compete in a high-power match. Hot rod them up with all kinds of fancy gimmicks. It's basically all for fun, right?
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I carry an HK USP45 on my hip as a [b]tool[/b] to defend myself or loved ones from bad people with hostile intentions. My ARs, Benelli M3s90, and other pistols are kept not only for target shooting enjoyment or competition, but also for defending myself or loved ones from bad people with hostile intentions. See the trend? My weapons are not toys, and NO accessory gets bolted on simply because it "looks cool". If it doesn't have a purpose I don't want it. Someone who accessorizes a firearm purely to make it "look good" is a dipshit. I hold them in the same regard as the assclowns who bolt $4000 worth of "go fast" looking crap on a Honda Civic but keep the engine stock. Ricers, posers, whatever... While they're busy dyno testing their latest decal kit I will actually be [i]using[/i] my weapons.
Link Posted: 10/19/2003 10:30:08 PM EDT
Good and comical points. Real Crane it is.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:09:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 5:16:10 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By urbanred:
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: Let me ask you this, is it an Airsoft part or a part made for a real weapon? Does the manufacturer claim it can be used for real weapons? If not it's a toy, end of story.
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I suppose there are some actual combat soldiers on this forum, but I'd guess for the other 98% of participants their ARs are toys as well. After all, what do you really do with them? Take them to the range to shoot. Maybe compete in a high-power match. Hot rod them up with all kinds of fancy gimmicks. It's basically all for fun, right? I have 20 firearms, every one of them a toy as far as I'm concerned, even the 44 Magnum.
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People viewing firearms as "TOYS" is a big problem and causes people to do really stupid things with them. I also find people like this also don't seem to take their 2nd Amendment rights seriously because..."Hey, it's just for fun, we don't really need guns right?". Well the 2nd Amendment was certainly not about hunting, target shooting or gun games! As several others already mentioned I also don't view my firearms as "TOYS" but rather as serious tools to use for self defense. Just because we can do fun things we enjoy with firearms does not make them "TOYS". If you can't see the differense between an Airsoft and a real firearm then there's nothing more I can say...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:35:14 AM EDT
Stuck bolt drills, anyone?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:09:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 10:23:12 AM EDT by 1001001]
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: If you can't see the differense between an Airsoft and a real firearm then there's nothing more I can say...
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Ok, before this all goes way off topic and the mods pull it I'd just like to have you click on these photo album links so you can verify that I know the differences. Thanks for a fun thread. And just to verify, I don't live in the house with the "privoit property" sign. [url]http://www.hunt101.com/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=4625[/url] [url]http://www.printroom.com/pictureSearch.asp?userid=v1001001[/url]
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:27:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 1001001: Good and comical points. Real Crane it is.
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Untill the price of real Cranes come under 300 bucks, save your money and buy a Vltor or Magpul MSS. Heck, even if the price of Cranes drop under 300 bucks, I'd still buy the Vltor! There is nothing a Crane can do that the Vltor can't. And even then, the Vltor, arguably, does a better job at it.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:45:41 AM EDT
yeah, what he said. skip the crane, go Vltor or Magpul.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 10:54:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 10:55:20 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Is their still any talk of somebody like ARMS or PRI making them?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:01:54 AM EDT
last I heard, I thought someone said ARMS was dropping the idea. No idea about PRI though? Anyone confirm or conflict this info? I am interested to know for sure myself?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:13:00 AM EDT
It would be nice if a trusted company would make a lisenced version. Hell, I paid $550 for the last one I bought.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:20:03 AM EDT
I agree, I was hoping for one to come out too. I got tired of waiting and bought the Vltor.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:24:57 AM EDT
I should have just bought the Vltor! Trust me I've owned two real Cranes ( sold one to Wes ) and just recently tried a friends Vltor. Hell if I could tell the difference while shooting. Zero difference!
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 11:36:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: People viewing firearms as "TOYS" is a big problem and causes people to do really stupid things with them. I also find people like this also don't seem to take their 2nd Amendment rights seriously because..."Hey, it's just for fun, we don't really need guns right?". Well the 2nd Amendment was certainly not about hunting, target shooting or gun games! As several others already mentioned I also don't view my firearms as "TOYS" but rather as serious tools to use for self defense. Just because we can do fun things we enjoy with firearms does not make them "TOYS". If you can't see the differense between an Airsoft and a real firearm then there's nothing more I can say...
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Nothing more needs to be said. Well done - that IS the definative word on the subject.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:27:30 PM EDT
how is the crane stock anymore practical than the standard M4 stock? it looks like it would be a less rugged design, having two little rods, instead of one fat cylindar.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 1:32:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 1:34:09 PM EDT by Horik]
Originally Posted By new-arguy: last I heard, I thought someone said ARMS was dropping the idea. No idea about PRI though? Anyone confirm or conflict this info? I am interested to know for sure myself?
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I remember hearing LMT was a possibility but mainly to supply military demands. Nothing confirmed of course but I also heard (take that for what it's worth)that they were balking at producing them for the civie market due to the mold costs and patent issues. I think the mold was the main issue. Do not qoute me on this[:D] as it was all being rattled around here quite some time ago.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 2:16:38 PM EDT
What? Toy gun parts on a real tool, paaleeeeaze. Some of us don’t consider our M4gerys toys, this is serious business. If you are going to be a wanna be with a toy, buy a Airsoft rifle. I do home defense drills with my M4gery, after all it is a tool, and one must be proficient with it. No way a toy part will hold up to the combat roll I do from the bedroom to the hall (free bonus tip, the more and heavier the stuff you bolt to your carbine, the better, gives you more momentum in a roll). Having enough trouble getting free of my tactical sling so I can get back up, all ways gets tangled up around my tactical optic, tactical light, tactical Fobus forward grip, and my neck. Best bet at this point is to just cut free with my tactical knife, but am still having trouble seeing thru my tactical Tasco because I am panting so hard it fogs up. So the last thing I need is a busted toy part. Not being a wanna be I will keep at it till I get it down pat. What we really need is a more practical butt stock. Seems to me what would be the best bet would be a stock with a hand crank on it, you know like those tactical survival wind up radios. Hook it up to a capacitor integral with the stock assy. Then run wires to all your battery driven accys. Wait a second, gotta better idea, instead of a crank have the stock set up so you can pump it front and back on the tube to generate electricity. So any who, the wires could also serve as a back up sling. Would be best if it was in the five pound range, this would help balance the front end with all the stuff bolted on to the MWS. While we are at, lets get serious here. I don’t use a single Colt’s parts on mine, sure Delta, SEALS, 82nd, 101st, 10th MTN, Australian SAS, etc, etc do, but their weapons are made by the lowest bidder (read Colt’s). I can splurge a bit and only buy Brand X parts (fill in the blank) advertised as Mil-Spec. Ever notice how Colt’s don’t advertise their stuff as Mil-Spec, stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Heck, buying Colt’s would be like buying an H&K when you can get a real deal weapon from Todd. Just take a look at that busted Airsoft stock pictured above, you don’t want to use a toy part like that when the chips are down. Just don’t understand those who think firearms are part of a hobby, or heaven forbid consider it fun, or worse yet are collectors, BAH! Just thinking about those guys that collect old Mausers and Lugars and such just makes my blood boil, who the heck do they think they are, having fun with firearms? Dang posers, wanna be freaks, like to see one of those guys do a combat roll in the living room with a 98K while drawing a Lugar out of some 50 year old holster.... Well, gotta run, gotta do some red blooded all American 2nd Amendment root toot tooting dyno testing on my Surefire.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:28:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 3:36:24 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Ekie, where did the Colt bashing come from?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:40:07 PM EDT
Ok, Ekie...step back and take a look at my last post on the first page of this thread. Second, Thanks to all for the suggestions on the Vltor. However I do not like the Vltor, I got to examine one first hand over the weekend and it doesn't do what I want the stock to do. The Magpul is of interest to me but fails to provide the cheekrest profile that I'm wanting. I'll keep the Magpul in the back of my mind but neither suggestion is optimal for what I want.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 3:50:20 PM EDT
My ARs, Benelli M3s90, and other pistols are kept not only for target shooting enjoyment or competition, but also for defending myself or loved ones from bad people with hostile intentions. See the trend?
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That's nice. None of my guns (20 of them) are kept for defense. I don't need it. That's just me. I shoot them about four times a month. For fun. So they get a lot of use. But if I was interested in home protection, about the last gun I would choose would be an AR-15 (I think my M1 would be the absolute last, or maybe my Springfield M1903s). Not terribly practical, is it, compared to a handgun or a shotgun? Unless you live on a ranch. And I don't. I always thought of the AR as a good-shooting platform for customization, in a great caliber. You guys, [i] like the anti-gun lobby, [/i] keep saying these guns are made for one thing: killing people. Well, maybe American gun owners are just stupid because there's 45 million of us with over 200 million privately owned firearms and damned few of them are ever used to kill anyone. Perhaps we are not reading the directions properly.
Someone who accessorizes a firearm purely to make it "look good" is a dipshit. I hold them in the same regard as the assclowns who bolt $4000 worth of "go fast" looking crap on a Honda Civic but keep the engine stock.
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I have about $5 grand + invested in my 66 El Camino, not including paint - suspension, brakes, crate motor, overdrive transmission, the works. I never race it. I guess I'm just another poser, [i] and [/i] a dipshit. But perhaps that's why I am more tolerant of people who want to hotrod their guns: because I hotrod my hotrod. In fact, I'm pretty tolerant of people in general. Makes life a hell of a lot easier.
While they're busy dyno testing their latest decal kit I will actually be [i]using[/i] my weapons.
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How many people have you killed with it? That, after all, would be a true measure of how truly practical your customizations have been.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:02:20 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: People viewing firearms as "TOYS" is a big problem and causes people to do really stupid things with them. I also find people like this also don't seem to take their 2nd Amendment rights seriously because..."Hey, it's just for fun, we don't really need guns right?". Well the 2nd Amendment was certainly not about hunting, target shooting or gun games!
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Based on the averages, it's a fair bet that I am more active in my community defending gun rights than you are (unless you, too, appear with some regularity in the local papers as an outspoken proponent of gun rights). One of the ways I do that is by getting people who are afraid of guns to come out to the range and put a lot of holes in paper. I do not talk about killing people. If I did that they would not come, and so they would continue voting for more gun control. Instead I show them how many of their neighbors are down at the range [i] with their families [/i] playing safely with their guns. Playing. Just shooting holes in paper. Or knocking down steel plates. Not killing anyone at all. Not even pretending to. I have converted more than a handful of gun-fearing people into - if not actual shooters - people who understand and respect gun rights. I do this without reference to the 2nd Amendment (after all, inalienable civil rights don't [i] need [/i] codification). I do this without mentioning death or killing, except to point out that there's surprisingly little of it associated with law-abiding gun ownership. I do it in a safe and fun way. How many converts do you have to your name? What have you done lately for gun rights?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:15:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 4:39:38 PM EDT by AKM]
Ekie you are indeed a poser! Don't you know that every home defense guru also needs a Redi-mag (never know when it might take more then one 30 round mag to down that bad guy, or a tribe of Taliban may be banging at your front door) and a bi-pod (when you land on your belly after taking that tactical roll-over onto the carpet) and a BIG-A$$ Tactical charging handle (incase your woken in the middle of the night and find that your fingers have fallen asleep). Geese man! Get with the program already!
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:27:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 4:55:07 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By urbanred: But if I was interested in home protection, about the last gun I would choose would be an AR-15 (I think my M1 would be the absolute last, or maybe my Springfield M1903s). Not terribly practical, is it, compared to a handgun or a shotgun? Unless you live on a ranch. And I don't.
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I you knew what you were talking about you'd know an AR with proper ammo selection would be about the best close quarter self defense firearm. The M193 has proven to have less overpenetration than pistol calibers and most shotgun ammo.
How many people have you killed with it? That, after all, would be a true measure of how truly practical your customizations have been.
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Every round you fire could kill someone! What's your point? I don't think anyone on this thread has mentioned killing anyone as something that has to be done for a firearm to be considered not a toy.
Based on the averages, it's a fair bet that I am more active in my community defending gun rights than you are (unless you, too, appear with some regularity in the local papers as an outspoken proponent of gun rights). One of the ways I do that is by getting people who are afraid of guns to come out to the range and put a lot of holes in paper. I do not talk about killing people. If I did that they would not come, and so they would continue voting for more gun control. Instead I show them how many of their neighbors are down at the range [i] with their families [/i] playing safely with their guns. Playing. Just shooting holes in paper. Or knocking down steel plates. Not killing anyone at all. Not even pretending to. I have converted more than a handful of gun-fearing people into - if not actual shooters - people who understand and respect gun rights. I do this without reference to the 2nd Amendment (after all, inalienable civil rights don't [i] need [/i] codification). I do this without mentioning death or killing, except to point out that there's surprisingly little of it associated with law-abiding gun ownership. I do it in a safe and fun way. How many converts do you have to your name? What have you done lately for gun rights?
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Over the past couple of years I've gotten roughly 25 people, may be more, hooked on shooting firearms. I'll have to concede to you on this because I don't appear regularly on local papers and I don't believe I've converted a true gun-fearing person. The people I've gotten hooked were open minded neutral or conservative leaning folks. So hey, another point for you! However I feel you do them a disservice by not mentioning the 2nd Ammendment's true purpose which is [b]NOT[/b] killing people but defending loved ones, friends and yourself from those who would harm, murder, rape or do worse things to them. They also need to understand that the 2nd Amendment ensures freedom and protects rest of the BOR! Sometimes you may have to kill the badguy or badguys in order to stop them but that's not the whole point. Lawful ownership of firearms is great and all but unless you understand the purpose of this important tool you are missing a lot. Though it's very good that you're converting people you are giving them the politcally correct view of the firearms world and not mentally preparing for the realities of it. You make the 2nd Amendment seem like another hobby like bowling or skating and not really a God given right. This needs to told, especially to people who you've just converted...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:32:40 PM EDT
“Ekie” My thoughts exactly “AMEN BROTHER”. Hehehehe… I was being about as nice as I could when I suggested the whole clamp on an aftermarket exhaust tip with LED lights as a flash suppressor too. Actually I forgot that I had been previously told by a “Good Guy BATF Insider” that if you so much as put a tube of toothpaste over the end of your barrel it would be considered a suppressed Class III firearm so I now apologize and retract for my smart A$$ suggestion. NOW: Everyone can blast me away here but if you aren’t a Veteran I really don’t care what you think because you wouldn’t actually know what I am talking about anyway. “And NO I don’t care how much B.S. you have read on the internet or learned in your local academy”. I often see some of the posts and photos on this and other sites and wonder if the proud owner of the AR in question would have any idea what would happen to their $800 Leupold Tactical, Pro-Point, Tommy Gun For-Grip, Sniper Grip etc. etc. if they hit the deck at full force, pushed up and rolled even “ONE TIME”. I can already picture the parts flying through the air. Granted there are some pretty cool add-ons “HOLO- ETC.” out there and I am not knocking them all, but my rifle is a bone stock bushy minus the Eagle I hate to use the term “tactical sling”. Oh yea, that is because a bone stock A2 will easily take out pop can sized targets at 200 meters, “if you can’t you simply need more practice” PERIOD. The average Joe would crap their pants if they had done to their AR what I and millions of others have done to their M-16s time and time again. I too am even sometimes victim to the look vs. function B.S. myself; when I went on a “Youth Only” dear hunt last week with my 11 year old he got a few scratches from the zippers on his hunting vest on my beloved Bushy. Before I chewed him out I thought to myself “what would a 100 meter low crawl at range 314 have done to her”? Hell I even used my A2 as a crutch over Mt. Mother! The more I think about it the more I think the question is BS anyway. If it isn’t you really only need to ask yourself one question before buying AR parts, “What is this manufactures government ID/Supplier number”? If they do not or have not in the past provided parts to the feds; “THERE IS A REASON”!!!! Find another source.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 4:38:01 PM EDT
Oh yeah, me a poser, I have not even gotten started yet. Don't encourage me to go into a full rant, hehe. BTW, that was just a list of tatical stuff that get tangled up during my combat rolls, not all the tactical stuff I have on my people killing 2nd amendment tactical rifle (PK2NDATR).
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 5:41:07 PM EDT
Originally Posted By urbanred:
My ARs, Benelli M3s90, and other pistols are kept not only for target shooting enjoyment or competition, but also for defending myself or loved ones from bad people with hostile intentions. See the trend?
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That's nice. None of my guns (20 of them) are kept for defense. I don't need it. That's just me. I shoot them about four times a month. For fun. So they get a lot of use. But if I was interested in home protection, about the last gun I would choose would be an AR-15 (I think my M1 would be the absolute last, or maybe my Springfield M1903s). Not terribly practical, is it, compared to a handgun or a shotgun? Unless you live on a ranch. And I don't. I always thought of the AR as a good-shooting platform for customization, in a great caliber. You guys, [i] like the anti-gun lobby, [/i] keep saying these guns are made for one thing: killing people. Well, maybe American gun owners are just stupid because there's 45 million of us with over 200 million privately owned firearms and damned few of them are ever used to kill anyone. Perhaps we are not reading the directions properly.
Someone who accessorizes a firearm purely to make it "look good" is a dipshit. I hold them in the same regard as the assclowns who bolt $4000 worth of "go fast" looking crap on a Honda Civic but keep the engine stock.
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I have about $5 grand + invested in my 66 El Camino, not including paint - suspension, brakes, crate motor, overdrive transmission, the works. I never race it. I guess I'm just another poser, [i] and [/i] a dipshit. But perhaps that's why I am more tolerant of people who want to hotrod their guns: because I hotrod my hotrod. In fact, I'm pretty tolerant of people in general. Makes life a hell of a lot easier.
While they're busy dyno testing their latest decal kit I will actually be [i]using[/i] my weapons.
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How many people have you killed with it? That, after all, would be a true measure of how truly practical your customizations have been.
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Jesus Christ, what part of [i]"people who bolt $4000 worth of "go fast" looking crap on a Honda Civic but keep the engine stock"[/i] [b]don't[/b] you understand? Do you see the difference between someone who just wants to "look" fast and someone who builds a hotrod to "go" fast? If you took offense to my post you shouldn't have-it wasn't intended for people like you. Whatever...
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:12:33 PM EDT
yojimbo: I you knew what you were talking about you'd know an AR with proper ammo selection would be about the best close quarter self defense firearm.
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forgive me for contesting this, but a handgun or SMG is going to allow faster target acquisition time in your house than a bulky long rifle like an AR, even if you have a compact version...and it's not like handguns only come in 9mm. rlongnut: if everyone planned on fighting on the front-lines of a battle, perhaps...although, I think a scope would probably provide more help than hindrance even in that scenario. but you cannot group everyone that way...some rifles will be used for different purposes, such as a sniper rifle, where a bipod and scope may definitely prove worth it. People are pretty good at realizing what is going to help them or hinder them once they actually get into action...if something is too bulky to be helpful, it's gonna come off pretty quickly. question: what is wrong with the traditional M4 style retracting stock?
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 6:53:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 6:58:36 PM EDT by DevL]
Originally Posted By stuh505:
yojimbo: I you knew what you were talking about you'd know an AR with proper ammo selection would be about the best close quarter self defense firearm.
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forgive me for contesting this, but a handgun or SMG is going to allow faster target acquisition time in your house than a bulky long rifle like an AR, even if you have a compact version...and it's not like handguns only come in 9mm. rlongnut: if everyone planned on fighting on the front-lines of a battle, perhaps...although, I think a scope would probably provide more help than hindrance even in that scenario. but you cannot group everyone that way...some rifles will be used for different purposes, such as a sniper rifle, where a bipod and scope may definitely prove worth it. People are pretty good at realizing what is going to help them or hinder them once they actually get into action...if something is too bulky to be helpful, it's gonna come off pretty quickly. question: what is wrong with the traditional M4 style retracting stock?
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Handguns and SMGs are far from being on the same level as a 5.56 carine in the wounding department even in .45 cal. Also the pistol rounds will be more likely to overpenetrate and hit your family or neighbors. I pick the accuracy of a long arm over a handgun. I pick the better terminal effects of a 5.56 carbine over an SMG every time. .45 SMG will have as much recoil as a 5.56 carbine anyway. Also I keep hearing about how many people you killed = how effective your rifle is or whatever. What the hell is that? I dont train in hand to hand for exercise. I do it to beat and choke people into unconsciousness. Just because that happens on very rare occasions does not make my training any less valuable.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 7:43:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/20/2003 7:47:01 PM EDT by stuh505]
Dev, I don't know much about handguns, but I know that there is a plethora of calibers (including 5.56mm), and many hollow-point bullets which are designed for maximum tissue damage, so I am confused why you say that the 5.56 from the AR15 is more devastating than any handgun round. now im going to go on a small non-emotional rant explaining myself: if the ar15 were the perfect close range weapon, why did they design SMG's? if you don't get the shot off, what good does it do that your ammunition is statistically more damaging? if you have an opponent in your house, you are going to be able to aim faster, be more limber, and have a better chance of getting a shot off if they are really close to you than you will with a heavy long rifle that was designed for outdoor use.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:30:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo: However I feel you do them a disservice by not mentioning the 2nd Ammendment's true purpose which is [b]NOT[/b] killing people but defending loved ones, friends and yourself from those who would harm, murder, rape or do worse things to them.
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Actually, the 2nd Amendment's purpose has nothing to do with personal protection (or hunting) but instead is about the ability of the People to defend themselves against tyranny, specifically tyranny backed up by a standing army (don't believe me? Read the Federalist Papers). So invoking the 2nd Amendment, and discussing it honestly with people who are already frightened of guns, doesn't usually make them any less frightened. They aren't interested in hearing that the Militia is all armed able-bodied citizens ready to take up arms against our boys in khaki and cammo, if necessary. There are plenty of justifications for gun rights - plenty - without reference to the 2nd Amendment. Besides, only Americans have the 2nd Amendment; does this mean only Americans have the right to bear arms? DevL was the poster who insisted his gun was a tool for killing people. Apologies.
Link Posted: 10/20/2003 8:57:48 PM EDT
Anyone for a friendly game of Airsoft?
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