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Posted: 11/2/2005 8:11:32 PM EDT
This is also posted in the General AR-15 forum, but as it is a "variant" here is the story

Perhaps it was too little sleep and too much Mt. Dew and Butterfingers. Or maybe it was due to some deep lingering feelings of inadequacy (afterall, the Beowulf owners had been taunting me with their statements "Mine is bigger") Or maybe it was just a matter of wanting the have the biggest toy on the block ....

Which ever reason it might have been, here she is. The first and likely the only. We thought of dubbing her Fenrir. For those that are not up on their Norse mythology, Fenrir is the one of the most feared monsters, a huge wolf, whose strength none can match ....

Fenrir (or Fenris) is a gigantic and terrible monster in the shape of a wolf. He is the eldest child of Loki and the giantess Angrboda. The gods learned of a prophecy which stated that the wolf and his family would one day be responsible for the destruction of the world. They caught the wolf and locked him in a cage. Only the god of war, Tyr, dared to feed and take care of the wolf.

When he was still a pup they had nothing to fear, but when the gods saw one day how he had grown, they decided to render him harmless. However, none of the gods had enough courage to face the gigantic wolf. Instead, they tried to trick him. They said the wolf was weak and could never break
free when he was chained. Fenrir accepted the challenge and let the gods chain him. Unfortunately, he was so immensely strong that he managed to break the strongest fetters as if they were cobwebs.

After that, the gods saw only one alternative left: a magic chain. They ordered the dwarves to make something so strong that it could hold the wolf. The result was a soft, thin ribbon: Gleipnir. It was incredibly strong, despite what its size and appearance might suggest. The ribbon was
fashioned of six strange elements: the footstep of a cat; the roots of a mountain; a woman's beard; the breath of fishes; the sinews of a bear; and a bird's spittle.

The gods tried to trick the wolf again, only this time Fenrir was less eager to show his strength. He saw how thin the chain was, and said that was no pride in breaking such a weak chain. Eventually, though, he agreed, thinking that otherwise his strength and courage would be doubted. Suspecting treachery however, he in turn asked the gods for a token of good will: one of them had to put a hand between his jaws. The gods were not overly eager to do this, knowing what they could expect. Finally, only Tyr agreed, and the gods chained the wolf with Gleipnir. No matter how hard Fenrir struggled, he could not break free from this thin ribbon. In revenge, he bit off Tyr's hand.

Being very pleased with themselves, the gods carried Fenrir off and chained him to a rock (called Gioll) a mile down into the earth. They put a sword between his jaws to prevent him from biting. On the day of Ragnarok, Fenrir will break his chains and join the giants in their battle against the gods. He will seek out Odin and devour him. Vidar, Odin's son, will avenge his father by killing the wolf.



Ok, ok, enough with the jibber jabber .... we had developed the .500 Phantom originally for use in the AR-10 for firing .50 BMG bullets are subsonic velocities. But during some of the load development , we noticed that with the "smaller" bullets, the overall loaded length would fit in the
AR-15 magazine, and so the idea started taking shape ....

First, because - in engineering terms - Picture = 1 MWords, a comparative shot of the .458 SOCOM and the .500 Phantom.



Due to the larger size, only one style upper will work, namely the Olympic Arms WSSM upper. It uses most everything as is, just needs to have the barrel replaced and the mag lips milled off a bit. We opted for a 16" carbine, but with muzzle brake. Believe me, this wolf needs a muzzle ....

Here is the completed upper.



Well, Marty, that's all great and stuff, you say, but what about performance? Here are some numbers to consider - based on load simulations, we have yet to shoot it over the chrony

300 gr Barnes Original - 2400 fps
535 gr Woodleigh SP - 1750 fps
685 gr Extreme Shock Frangible - subsonic (1000 fps)
308 168 SMK sabot - 2600 fps has to be single loaded through port
750 Amax - subsonic (1000 fps) has to be single loaded through port

With a standard lower with ACE stock, the 300 gr load was a bit of a beast to shoot. But damn, what a rush.

NOTE - this project was done without consent of Olympic Arms, or them knowing about it. They might not be happy I did this, but I think it shows that their WSSM uppers have potential for some other rounds. We contacted them several times about working with them on this but never got a reply..... Dedicated Technology replied to our inquiries to them, but indicated that at this time they would not wish to pursue it .... so I went and did it "my way".

We plan to do some load testing, but after that we probably offer her up for sale....

Some folks seem to think I lost my mind ....
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 8:26:58 PM EDT
O..........M..........G............

Link Posted: 11/2/2005 8:35:19 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 8:51:12 PM EDT
Marty-

You're a sick man...

Randall
(posting from a friend's account while mine is dead)
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 8:55:39 PM EDT
They look like tiny ICBM's.

I like the 750gr puppies. I bet they hit hard. I'm surprised there is enough propellant to shove it out the end of the barrel.

Nice.
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 9:02:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIgunnut:



Link Posted: 11/2/2005 10:07:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/2/2005 11:05:46 PM EDT by humzai]
Looks very mean and tantalizing. Why are you not planning to produce it?
Link Posted: 11/2/2005 11:29:20 PM EDT
Damn
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 3:21:47 AM EDT
What is different about the Oly WSSM uppers? I imagine the port is larger. Anything else?
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 4:13:14 AM EDT
Sweet Jesus Christ!

You haven't lost your mind at all... it's just thinking up new, devious ideas to bring out.

I'm assuming any WSSM caliber would be a candidate for conversion.

ANOTHER gun I got save for... I'm never gonna get those other projects done!
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 4:27:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2005 4:08:23 PM EDT by Big-Bore]
Marty, you know you are going to have to do a run of these beasts or we are not going to let you rest. Block our e-mails, we will get new ones. So, you might as well offer up a price and be ready to take orders.

Speaking of which, any ETA on the XXL Polo SOCOM and Hadji T shirts? PM me. Never mind. The shirts arrived today. FANTASTIC!!! Now, about this new upper...

You know James (at K) is going to wet his pants when he sees this on the AR-15 platform, I know I almost did. Give us a price, I'll find the money.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 6:10:04 AM EDT
HOLY SHT !
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 8:12:24 AM EDT
WOW!
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 8:29:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2005 8:30:38 AM EDT by sniperx]
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 8:32:21 AM EDT
All I can say is ...................
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 9:01:37 AM EDT
Marty,

I am having a hard time with the 300 grain velocity figures from the 16" barrel. That is faster than my 458 with a 20" barrel. I hope those do pan out. That is just awsome. Your a bad bad boy, and I hope that your wife does not catch wind of this. This has to be another....don't say it.......
Group Purchase.

Craig
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 9:15:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:

300 gr Barnes Original - 2400 fps
535 gr Woodleigh SP - 1750 fps
685 gr Extreme Shock Frangible - subsonic (1000 fps)
308 168 SMK sabot - 2600 fps has to be single loaded through port
750 Amax - subsonic (1000 fps) has to be single loaded through port







Group buy?
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 9:42:33 AM EDT
sweet baby jesus!!!!!
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 1:14:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Marty, you know you are going to have to do a run of these beasts or we are not going to let you rest. Block our e-mails, we will get new ones. So, you might as well offer up a price and be ready to take orders.

Speaking of which, any ETA on the XXL Polo SOCOM and Hadji T shirts? PM me.

You know James (at K) is going to wet his pants when he sees this on the AR-15 platform, I know I almost did. Give us a price, I'll find the money.


+1

Take a Beowulf on trade?
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 2:09:42 PM EDT
Damnit Marty what have you done!?!?!?!?! Why must you taunt me
well screw the grendel upper idea.

Link Posted: 11/3/2005 2:11:28 PM EDT
Damnit, something else I have to buy. My poor wife.
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 2:57:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2005 2:58:34 PM EDT by Cold]

Originally Posted By Bearbait1:
Marty,

I am having a hard time with the 300 grain velocity figures from the 16" barrel. That is faster than my 458 with a 20" barrel. I hope those do pan out. That is just awsome. Your a bad bad boy, and I hope that your wife does not catch wind of this. This has to be another....don't say it.......
Group Purchase.

Craig



Did I hear someone say Group buy (I was told i had the second longest running AR15.com Group buy, second only to the long awaited SEBR.....)....cuz Im getting bored with college and law school apps....and I love a good gun project!
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 4:09:40 PM EDT
Marty, if you do NOT make this upper available you are going to make the baby Jesus cry. Do you REALLY want that on the books when you meet the man up 'yonder?
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 8:57:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/3/2005 9:07:30 PM EDT by MartytW]
It's not that I don't want to sell these, I just have an issue getting the parts from Oly. We took a 243 WSSM upper, took it apart, reused the barrel to make a 6 x 45 20" with midlength gas system. Then made the new barrel and modified the mag.

If Oly would be willing to sell the parts (or be quicker to send the 243 WSSM uppers, it took FOREVER to get this one) then we might go for it. It requires a custom extension, custom upper, custom carrier and bolt, custom mag .... to the point where we might do our own version if need be. Cost of this upper would be around $900.

The real challenge is the feeding of the beast. Dies are $175. Bullets are not cheap either but the real kicker is the brass. Currently brass is $2.75 for every piece and we are down to the last 300 pieces. We are actively discussing new brass supply with two US companies but if those do not pan out we need to get more brass from Germany and it takes FOREVER to get that stuff made.

Again, not that we don't want to sell these uppers, but the supply chain issues are a little too large right now ...

On the velocity figures, the powder used is Lil Gun which should have used up all its steam in a 24" tube and then some. Joe is getting about 2600 fps from the 24" barrel. So the estimated 2400 is a valid number. Just to be fair, in December I was going to invite the Houston-area ARFCOMMERs to join me at the range to shoot this puppy over the chrony, along with the 7.62 x 25, the 338 Spectre (doubt the papers for the can will have cleared) and that new midbore cartridge we have been working on ....

Marty

PS The loads shown were at normal pressure, the brass and bolt can take about 10K psi more pressure but not sure I can take it ...Think 56 gr of H110
Link Posted: 11/3/2005 10:52:24 PM EDT

Just to be fair, in December I was going to invite the Houston-area ARFCOMMERs to join me at the range to shoot this puppy over the chrony, along with the 7.62 x 25, the 338 Spectre (doubt the papers for the can will have cleared) and that new midbore cartridge we have been working on ....


Come to Alaska, we'll show you a good time

No hurricanes, no sunburn (well no sun), no problems with heat (ever shot at -40?), what else could you ask for?
Link Posted: 11/4/2005 9:32:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uafgrad:

Just to be fair, in December I was going to invite the Houston-area ARFCOMMERs to join me at the range to shoot this puppy over the chrony, along with the 7.62 x 25, the 338 Spectre (doubt the papers for the can will have cleared) and that new midbore cartridge we have been working on ....


Come to Alaska, we'll show you a good time

No hurricanes, no sunburn (well no sun), no problems with heat (ever shot at -40?), what else could you ask for?



I grew up on the 51 latitude. Had my share of cold and no sun. No thanks. Moved south for a reason ... consider rheumatoid arthritis in my hands at my age due to hypothermia from being out in wet gear. Yes, my fault the gear was wet. Yes, should have swapped or gone to field expedient solution to fix ... two weeks after coming back in from out in the field still had no sensation in 5 fingers. Lucky I did not lose them

Then again, suffered acute heat stress and hyponatremia following second Houston marathon, caught lots of grief in the ER (you know the legend of Marathon? He died! Take the hint!)

Such is life.
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 5:19:20 PM EDT
Marty,

You sir are a sick, twisted individual. This unholy abomination is an affront to all civilized persons everywhere.

I like it.

Gonna start sellin em?
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 6:22:19 PM EDT
In a whisper almost too low to hear, Marty is shocked at the sudden whisper with no known source from somewhere out on the Texas plains, "If you build it, they will buy."
Link Posted: 11/5/2005 6:26:50 PM EDT
Group Buy!
Group Buy!
Group Buy!
Group Buy!

Someone make brass for this so we can do a Group Buy!
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 9:43:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/7/2005 9:44:06 AM EDT by JoePA]
Marty - don't forget all the other 50 cal pills that you can use in this beast....

(L to R) Loaded 168g Sabot, 570g Barnes Solid, 570g Barnes XLC, 975g Cast, 750g AMAX, loaded AMAX

Link Posted: 11/7/2005 9:48:54 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/7/2005 4:51:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JoePA:
Marty - don't forget all the other 50 cal pills that you can use in this beast....

(L to R) Loaded 168g Sabot, 570g Barnes Solid, 570g Barnes XLC, 975g Cast, 750g AMAX, loaded AMAX

feistyrooster.com/ebay/otherphantom.jpg



But Marty is talking about using it in the AR-15 platform, not the AR-10 or bolt gun platform. I think the AR-15 is just a hair short for 750 gr. A-Max and 975 gr. cast loads.
Link Posted: 11/8/2005 3:06:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:

Originally Posted By JoePA:
Marty - don't forget all the other 50 cal pills that you can use in this beast....

(L to R) Loaded 168g Sabot, 570g Barnes Solid, 570g Barnes XLC, 975g Cast, 750g AMAX, loaded AMAX

feistyrooster.com/ebay/otherphantom.jpg



But Marty is talking about using it in the AR-15 platform, not the AR-10 or bolt gun platform. I think the AR-15 is just a hair short for 750 gr. A-Max and 975 gr. cast loads.



You can always use a Bob Sled and single load through the ejection port. Have the shorter ones in the mag and then when needed slip one of the big ones in from the side (I feel like I need a shower after saying that)

Working on a source for brass. Going to ask Oly nicely if they will sell us stuff. Tromix will make the uppers if we have too much on our plate ....
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 7:47:44 AM EDT
Any way to get a close up picture with the round loaded in the magazine?
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 7:57:09 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 5:29:56 PM EDT
Nice.
Marty did you see that 338LSM thread at snipershide? I am thinking AR10 upper when the brass starts coming in.
Link Posted: 11/13/2005 6:42:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By usma89:
Nice.
Marty did you see that 338LSM thread at snipershide? I am thinking AR10 upper when the brass starts coming in.



Negative. Haven't been on Frank's turf for a while. Can you link me? If this is the brass I think it is, I can give you the full dev. history ...
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 2:40:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:

Originally Posted By WIgunnut:






Link Posted: 11/14/2005 3:05:23 PM EDT
Shooting USA and Jim Scouten did a show recently on Future Weapons and featured the AR platform

He tested (and his team) the 6.8 SPC, the .50 Beowolf, the 6.5 Grendel, the .458 SOCOM, and a .50 1911 handgun


Terrific episode and worth seeing. If you cannot see it, read the link above.

the .458 vs .223


the .50 Beowolf


for starters.....
Link Posted: 11/14/2005 4:06:17 PM EDT
And as my 458 project tops $2k, I see this, and I realize that this addiction will never stop...

Link Posted: 11/15/2005 5:29:48 AM EDT
Hmmmm, 338LSM, why does that strike a bell with me????
Link Posted: 11/15/2005 10:13:05 AM EDT
I can't seem to find the 338LSM thread

Can someone post a link to it

Chris
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:19:06 PM EDT
We asked for it and now we are getting it. Tune in over at the EE in the GB section to get more details-none posted yet. Details of an AR15 approved and VERY LIMITED GB will be posted by this weekend (1-7-06). When I say limited, I mean LIMITED. Snooze and you will lose on this one.

Thanks Marty. You are going to make me a very happy puppy and my wife one pissed off ol' gal.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:52:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
We asked for it and now we are getting it. Tune in over at the EE in the GB section to get more details-none posted yet. Details of an AR15 approved and VERY LIMITED GB will be posted by this weekend (1-7-06). When I say limited, I mean LIMITED. Snooze and you will lose on this one.

Thanks Marty. You are going to make me a very happy puppy and my wife one pissed off ol' gal.



Just hope and pray Mrs T does not find out about this ... I am keeping the number low so I can hide the components in the shop and she won't catch on. If I were to have another 18 wheeler drop parts off, she would figure it out ...

BTW, the original prototype upper is now in the hands of Doc-Rock, he made my Xmas and bought one rifle, one extra upper, another upper, a project MGI upper with 3 barrels, additional stuff ... He promised a cool paint job on it....
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 7:02:33 PM EDT
What can I say.........I like fun toys. They are all for my company to use as a marketing for the refinishing business. Should make for fine table showings at gun shows and pics for the website. At least - that is what I tell the wife. I am just waiting to get all the parts and stuff in and a weekend with no kids - and bam....I am off to the range. The range master will not know what to think when we show up with

2 .458's, 1 .338, 1 .204, 1 .223, 1 LR308/500P, 1 AR15 500P, and a Tromix 50AE.

Should make for fun times.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:26:30 PM EDT
Dammit

Something else I must have

Going to the safe to see what I can scrounge up

Can't wait for details of the GB

Inside track anyone??? I can make it worth your while. Anyone like smoked salmon?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:07:35 AM EDT
All info on the group buy is posted in the GB section of the EE now. Let the sign up begin. Now, PLEASE do not sign up unless you intend to go through with it. If you have any idea that you will not be able to finish the deal please do not sign up and leave that upper for someone else. If anyone signs up only to drop out it will add a week or more to the GB and the quicker we can get the funds in, the quicker Marty can get to work.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 4:53:15 PM EDT
Oh snap!
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 12:30:27 PM EDT
Took the prototype to the range today. Damn. It has a kick. But was awesome. Absolute pure power and andrenaline. Crazy recoil and a definite head turner.

500 Phantom AR-15=BMF
Link Posted: 1/10/2006 3:34:05 AM EDT
gotta love america...

congrats. that is fantastic!!!



s.tank

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 4:51:08 AM EDT
Come on people, all those in this thread wanting a GB and only two have signed up so far counting myself? WTF?
If we do not get the 10 total this likely is not going to happen. What happened to all those urging Marty to do a GB? Less than two weeks before it closes and if enough are not signed up likely nobody gets any. And good luck getting Marty to listen to us about another GB in the future.
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