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Posted: 10/5/2005 5:23:03 AM EDT
HK940 - Mike, will be along to post a report on what he did.

I even get to pick up today!
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:28:04 AM EDT
Today's lesson: Don't shoot 5.45x39 through AR. Or, don't let unsupervised kid shoot anything from AR.

Glad its out, hope the AR is ok and good to go for 5.56x45.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:28:38 AM EDT
Tag
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:30:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 5:39:36 AM EDT by hk940]
The upper in question was given to me Tuesday evening. repair time was about 1 hour.
As you know it’s a new looking 20” A1 upper with a 5.45x39mm case stuck in the chamber and a section of cleaning rod wedged and broken off down inside the barrel. this was done in an attempt to force the cartridge out. There may also be a squib round between the two. sounds like a Chinese finger puzzle. The rifle came with the bolt, charging handle and several sections of aluminum cleaning rod one of which was about 12” long and broken on the end.


So how to crack the nut?
I assumed that the best course would be to first extract the bullet from the breach and then punch the rod out the end of the barrel.

The barrel was pulled off the upper and Needle nose (large and small), side cutters, dikes, needle nose vice grips etc. were used in an attempt to get a bite on the case rim and extract the round but with no success. The problem was the case was jammed in far enough it was almost flush with the bottom of the locking lugs. most tools proved either to thick to engage the rim or were too flimsy to get a good grip.

I got to tell you. That small rifle primer looks menacing when you consider drilling around it or pinching it….

A steel 32” long Dewey cleaning rod and jag were inserted down the bore and encountered resistance at about 8” inches.

The jag was removed and the steel rod was reinserted and threads were detected (first bit of luck). The Dewey has female threads and it was tightly threaded onto the stuck rod section. I then closed the jaws of my bench vice to slightly over the diameter of the steel rod. the rifle was turned muzzle up and “hung” by the vice from the handle of the cleaning rod. the assembly was raised 4” off the top of the jaws and allowed to drop. This caused a hammer effect and the stuck rod moved out ½”. It took several more blows to remove the rod from the barrel. The rod was a typical aluminum section about 12” long Without a jag on the end.. (which one of you turkeys told him to knock it out with a cleaning rod and didn't tell him to put a jag on the end). the broken rod showed a crack running down its length where it was jammed around the bullet and locked into position.

Now the fun part. the cleaning rod with a brass jag was inserted down the bore and bottomed out at almost the full 20 inches. So no squib round (second bit of luck). The rod was removed and there was un-burnt powder on the full length of the rod. i broke the "nipple" off the end of the jag, reinserted and the upper receiver was set upright on top of a block of wood. Holding the rifle away from my face I gave the cleaning rod several sharp blows with a wooden mallet. the rod was removed and the jag had bent in the case a little and deformed so i broke the jag off at it's base. this would convert the bent dumbbell shaped jag into a brass “ram” the rod was reinserted and after a few more stiff blows the cartridge popped free. overall the cartridge showed little wear except the bullet was forced down inside the Cartridge and as a result the neck was torn. the rim of the case has minor damage from the extractor. there was no lacquer anywhere in the chamber or on the cartridge. looking down the bore you could see a lot of unburned powder kernels.

The barrel was cleaned with a bore snake and noted to be in perfect condition. it looks brand new!
The upper was reassembled and carrier key/gas tube was fit tested.

the upper is ready to return to MM.

lessons learned;
use the right ammo.
Wolf was not the cause of this problem
use a steel cleaning rod with a jag on the end to knock out a stuck bullet.

tools:
one Dewey coated cleaning rod.
one brass jag. .223 cal.
wooden mallet
2x4 at 4" long sized block of wood
vice and bench.
1/16" pin punch.
receiver block
barrel wrench.


cost:
one brass jag. .223 cal.
1 hr time.
slight damage to my Dewey cleaning rod.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:35:25 AM EDT
I wana see how this worked out...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:35:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 5:36:27 AM EDT by AssaultRifler]
tag
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 5:58:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 6:07:35 AM EDT by MauserMark]
AWESOME!

I'm in disbelief that I hadn't damaged the bore or chamber in any way with the aluminum rod I got jammed in there.



btw, what do you want me to bring you for lunch? I know you're a whataburger fan.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:03:02 AM EDT
Glad there was no damage to the barrel and you're both still able to post.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:04:53 AM EDT
CONGRATULATIONS! are certainly in order.

I was curious as to how this would turn out...obviously better than expected.

Good work HK.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:18:08 AM EDT
I guess I am an idiot, but what is a jag? I bet I know but just don't know it by that name.


Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:18:46 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:19:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:23:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 6:24:33 AM EDT by mfingar]

Originally Posted By nugentgl:
I guess I am an idiot, but what is a jag? I bet I know but just don't know it by that name.



It goes on the end of a cleaning rod...when you use a patch. (very useful tool on pistols)

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:31:29 AM EDT

It goes on the end of a cleaning rod...when you use a patch. (very useful tool on pistols)


OK, I knew what it was, I just never knew that is what it was called.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:45:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hk940:


lessons learned;
use the right ammo.
Wolf was not the cause of this problem
use a steel cleaning rod with a jag on the end to knock out a stuck bullet.





I learned that lesson the hard way. I had a stuck case in the chamber and used an aluminum rod to try and push it out. The heat from the barrel was actually hot enough to melt the rod to it and I couldn't get it out. Don't ever use the cheap aluminum rods, not even to clean.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:55:35 AM EDT
Congrats guys! Glad it turned out ok
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:12:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By nugentgl:

It goes on the end of a cleaning rod...when you use a patch. (very useful tool on pistols)


OK, I knew what it was, I just never knew that is what it was called.




You know, its the do hickey that hold the thingamabob...
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:15:07 AM EDT
The more I think about it, the best option for a stuck round w/ unburnt powder and no way to grip the rim, as in this situation, might be to go somewhere remote, start small campfire, and then place the barrel in the camfire with the bore and chamber pointing in safe directions and get yourself out of the danger range. Wait for round to cook off, and return to inspect. More than likely the case will fly out, or the case head will seperate and fly out, and bullet will remain somewhere in the barrel.

The little heat produced by the fire shouldn't hurt the barrel any more than the heat from firing, but it will be enough to cook off the round.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:15:27 AM EDT
Glad this worked out for you MM and I think your friend needs a short lesson on ammo types and what not to use in an AR.


^_^_^
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:20:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:
The more I think about it, the best option for a stuck round w/ unburnt powder and no way to grip the rim, as in this situation, might be to go somewhere remote, start small campfire, and then place the barrel in the camfire with the bore and chamber pointing in safe directions and get yourself out of the danger range. Wait for round to cook off, and return to inspect. More than likely the case will fly out, or the case head will seperate and fly out, and bullet will remain somewhere in the barrel.

The little heat produced by the fire shouldn't hurt the barrel any more than the heat from firing, but it will be enough to cook off the round.



Are you serious?

Have you ever done that or seen this in person?

Just curious.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:35:52 AM EDT
Good job HK!
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:44:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
I wana see how this worked out...



Me too, where are the pictures!!! Do show..
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 7:51:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Always be very careful when hammering on unburnt powder.

I had a squib once, and the gunsmith ignited a small amount of unburnt powder inside the bore, behind the round, by tapping a cleaning rod against the base of the bullet.

It resulted in a moderately loud POP, some smoke, and some soiled undergarments.

Unburnt powder WILL detonate under pressure and heat from a cleaning rod.

Glad you got it out, but you were taking a large, and unnecessary, risk with unburnt powder present. New barrel would have been 125.00 (?)

Detonating that round would have been much more costly.

TRG



DOH!

I do a ton of reloading in pistol, I have never had a squib yet (KNOCK ON WOOD) but a few friends have, poop! One more round and BANG! Usually a squib will not extract the cartridge and you hear that typical poop sound, its obvious something is wrong and you stop shooting. In competition specifically plate matches, we are shooting under 3 seconds from draw to the last plate so you have to pay extremely close attention. I have seen many guns blown up and frozen stuck where the slide will not move anymore because the barrel is expanded inside the slide. This is pistol stuff, I can not imagine what an AR would do with a squib round having a live good round fired behind it.

What I would like to see is blown gun pics, I had come across a collection on the net of pistols that had blown apart, does anyone have any rifle pics? I am not saying yeah to blown up guns, just curious to see what happens.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:38:34 AM EDT
Excellent.

Good job and write up HK940.

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:39:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 8:39:52 AM EDT by boltcatch]
One way to make training rifles (rubber duckies) for bayo work, water training, etc, is to take a worn out M16 or M16A1 barreled upper, remove the BCG, and stick it into a mold that casts resin around it in the shape of the missing portions of the rifle. I've seen an awful lot of rubber duckies that didn't have an entire upper molded into them -- looks like they had been blown to flinders. I think that answers your question about firing on a squib round.

...


(which one of you turkeys told him to knock it out with a cleaning rod and didn't tell him to put a jag on the end).



Link Posted: 10/5/2005 8:44:44 AM EDT
Somehow, this still has to be the fault of Wolf ammo....


Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:30:39 AM EDT
Good to hear that you got it out.



WIZZO
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 9:47:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gunman0:
The more I think about it, the best option for a stuck round w/ unburnt powder and no way to grip the rim, as in this situation, might be to go somewhere remote, start small campfire, and then place the barrel in the camfire with the bore and chamber pointing in safe directions and get yourself out of the danger range. Wait for round to cook off, and return to inspect. More than likely the case will fly out, or the case head will seperate and fly out, and bullet will remain somewhere in the barrel.

The little heat produced by the fire shouldn't hurt the barrel any more than the heat from firing, but it will be enough to cook off the round.



How much heat?? It's possible to start a fire hot enough to anneal the steel. I would not try this.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 10:48:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Hellhound:

Originally Posted By gunman0:
The more I think about it, the best option for a stuck round w/ unburnt powder and no way to grip the rim, as in this situation, might be to go somewhere remote, start small campfire, and then place the barrel in the camfire with the bore and chamber pointing in safe directions and get yourself out of the danger range. Wait for round to cook off, and return to inspect. More than likely the case will fly out, or the case head will seperate and fly out, and bullet will remain somewhere in the barrel.

The little heat produced by the fire shouldn't hurt the barrel any more than the heat from firing, but it will be enough to cook off the round.



Are you serious?

Have you ever done that or seen this in person?

Just curious.



I'm serious. I've never done this particular item, but I've been in a place where a jackass(not me) through live rounds into a fire, on two different occasions, and they cooked off, and did no damage to anything because the cases weren't supported. Just like the rare event where a live round is dropped or ejected at the range and fires because it lands primer down on a rock.

The case head is not, even on a weak steel case, going to hold enough pressure back for the barrel to KB. Obviously the point of failure will be the brass/steel case.

And the fires I've seen ammo that had ammunition cook off were not very hot at all.

Of course the best idea is to not put 5.45 in a 5.56 rifle.

I guess you could also rig up some type of contraption to strike the primer remotely instead of using a fire. Just make sure there is plenty of clearance for the gas to escape when the round fires so your striker doesn't become a projectile.

The fire idea just fits the whole "hold my beer and watch this" redneck thought process better.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 11:08:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By arowneragain:
Somehow, this still has to be the fault of Wolf ammo....





Yea, I'll bet his wife left him and his dog ran away...........

Damm that Wolf ammo!

Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:14:14 PM EDT
stupid alum rods glad to hear it is all better
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:09:36 AM EDT
great to hear that everything turned out good!

reminder to self sit on the other side of the range when shooting with mark

an­yways what you doin this weekend? gonne be really nice weather for shootin and i think i have finished all the errand/projects i was suppose to take care of so i should be free.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:20:25 AM EDT
Would a new barrel have been cheaper than labor, for a DIY'er???
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:34:25 AM EDT
Good work. I always loved it when things like that came into our shop. Our gunsmith had to do some trully ingenious things to "defuse" some of the bombs.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 10:12:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Would a new barrel have been cheaper than labor, for a DIY'er???



the barrel would be about $125-150 plus install.
Link Posted: 10/6/2005 4:42:17 PM EDT
Nice to see a resolution on this problem.
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