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12/11/2018 1:58:31 AM
Posted: 3/5/2018 1:05:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2018 1:19:42 PM EST by Stylz]
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:14:07 PM EST
Amy is a pretty dangerous chick.

In before title edit
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:14:12 PM EST
But what does Susan use?

Thanks for the awesome test as always...
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:14:42 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ZedsDeadBaby:
Amy is a pretty dangerous chick.

In before title edit
View Quote
ISFAW.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:21:33 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:28:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/5/2018 1:29:43 PM EST by Anti_Russian]
My concern, without being any type of expert, is that a reduced charge may not be the only factor in distance effectiveness testing.

At a good distance, wouldn't a bullet either:
1.) be coming into a target at a downward, curving, angle
2.) possibly be hitting said target indirectly, as in the nose of the bullet may be either pointed parallel with the ground while the entry is a down-forward angle, or even possibly still pointed slightly up - since that it the direction it was facing when it was fired?

I here-by admit that I can't watch the newest video here, but usually what I see on YT attempts to do 'distance' evaluations is close-distance lower-powered loads, which seems to be part of what was written about in the first post.

TY for your good work, though, Andrew - I like that you're out there trying.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:33:31 PM EST
Knock a grain off and use a 7" bbl?

Great test maybe I'll grab 100 when they're down to .50c/ea
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:38:58 PM EST
I'm a bit confused,, Buffmans 20 in showed 3023 fps and the 20 in in the plate video showed 3261 fps.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 1:52:28 PM EST
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Originally Posted By KnifeCollector:
I'm a bit confused,, Buffmans 20 in showed 3023 fps and the 20 in in the plate video showed 3261 fps.
View Quote
Matt is in Michigan and Andrew is in Arizona. I'm sure that has something to do with it. (Temp and Elevation)
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 2:23:48 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Anti_Russian:
My concern, without being any type of expert, is that a reduced charge may not be the only factor in distance effectiveness testing.

At a good distance, wouldn't a bullet either:
1.) be coming into a target at a downward, curving, angle
2.) possibly be hitting said target indirectly, as in the nose of the bullet may be either pointed parallel with the ground while the entry is a down-forward angle, or even possibly still pointed slightly up - since that it the direction it was facing when it was fired?

I here-by admit that I can't watch the newest video here, but usually what I see on YT attempts to do 'distance' evaluations is close-distance lower-powered loads, which seems to be part of what was written about in the first post.

TY for your good work, though, Andrew - I like that you're out there trying.
View Quote
You could be correct, but not in the ways you think. Impact angle should have little effect on terminal performance, but it will vary dramatically in the field anyway, independent of range. Yaw angle could affect bullet performance and rotational velocity could affect yaw angle. But this projectile does not appear to rely on yaw to do its thing. Nevertheless, a slower MV means lower rotational velocity. Bullets bleed forward velocity over distance, but lose very little rotational velocity. That's the biggest variable that can't be controlled in this test.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 2:25:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Matt is in Michigan and Andrew is in Arizona. I'm sure that has something to do with it. (Temp and Elevation)
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Originally Posted By KnifeCollector:
I'm a bit confused,, Buffmans 20 in showed 3023 fps and the 20 in in the plate video showed 3261 fps.
Matt is in Michigan and Andrew is in Arizona. I'm sure that has something to do with it. (Temp and Elevation)
And ammunition made at different times. This stuff has gone through a few iterations of propellant.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 2:28:00 PM EST
How about the same test with Mk318?
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 2:29:49 PM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Matt is in Michigan and Andrew is in Arizona. I'm sure that has something to do with it. (Temp and Elevation)
View Quote
When I chrono'd mine, out of an FN A2, I got 3149fps average over a 10 shot string. 50*f, 4200ASL
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 2:53:43 PM EST
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Originally Posted By mcantu:
How about the same test with Mk318?
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That's exactly what's up next.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 11:38:05 PM EST
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Originally Posted By ZedsDeadBaby:
Amy is a pretty dangerous chick.

In before title edit
View Quote
And they want to dump the M4 and M855A1 by 2022.
Link Posted: 3/5/2018 11:56:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2018 12:04:51 AM EST by King_Mud]
What if you used your reduced charge and hacksawed a cheap barrel off an inch at a time kinda like Ballistics by the Inch did? There’s a barrel on Brownells for $65 or so.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 2:17:16 AM EST
Do I hear a volunteer donation?
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 8:38:57 AM EST
Great test, thank you for doing this!

At 3,000fps with a G7 bc of .152, that corresponds to a 350 yard minimum frag range from the M4.

Very curious what the actual minimum frag velocity is; 1700fps would make it a 460 yard, 1600fps would make it 500 yards...
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 9:55:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2018 11:20:23 AM EST by King_Mud]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Pirkey:
Do I hear a volunteer donation?
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If he’ll do the work I would especially if he could sneak in some 75 grain Gold Dots since that’s my go-to ammo and I’d really like to see how it performs at distance. I could get that cheaper barrel and cut it to any length wanted, it would be easy to cut it at the carbine gas port and a 7” would simulate longer range pretty well even with factory ammo. Supplying stuff is the easy part, doing the testing is the work though.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 10:13:50 AM EST
like a honey badger?

why is this stuff not on the shelves?
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 10:25:28 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 11:47:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2018 11:48:35 AM EST by Anti_Russian]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:

You could be correct, but not in the ways you think. Impact angle should have little effect on terminal performance, but it will vary dramatically in the field anyway, independent of range. Yaw angle could affect bullet performance and rotational velocity could affect yaw angle. But this projectile does not appear to rely on yaw to do its thing. Nevertheless, a slower MV means lower rotational velocity. Bullets bleed forward velocity over distance, but lose very little rotational velocity. That's the biggest variable that can't be controlled in this test.
View Quote
Thank you for your straight-forward reply, bf.

I was thinking I'd get made fun of for writing that post. Glad it was considered not-too-dumb, and not trollish.

I'm wondering just how large of a gel block would be ideal for a true 200-yard, or 300-yard, shot? I know gel is expensive, but perhaps you could create a 'gofundme' page for a single investment into what would be a 2'x'2'x4' gel block for a few real distance tests? I bet some others here would like to see them.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 12:08:29 PM EST
I remember reading that testing showed that the exposed steel tip chews up feed ramps after a while, has anything been done to rectify that?
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 12:13:57 PM EST
on reducing powder charge, i heard that old timers would use oatmeal in the cases to take up the volume when they wanted slower speeds.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 12:30:25 PM EST
Where can you pick up a few boxes of this?
I would love to have some for my SHTF
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 1:48:39 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By mak0:
I remember reading that testing showed that the exposed steel tip chews up feed ramps after a while, has anything been done to rectify that?
View Quote
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Unscientific_M855A1_magazine_feed_test__Updated_with_even_more_unscientifically_photos_/17-684147/
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 2:11:41 PM EST
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Originally Posted By mak0:
I remember reading that testing showed that the exposed steel tip chews up feed ramps after a while, has anything been done to rectify that?
View Quote
Gen 3 PMAG's solve that. Also the army made some tan mags with blue followers that rip off the pmag feed lip geometry that work almost as good as pmags.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 3:22:55 PM EST
damn.. that stuff is bad ass.

also I had to order a rick and archer drinking shirt.
Link Posted: 3/6/2018 9:00:29 PM EST
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Originally Posted By LWRCguy:
Where can you pick up a few boxes of this?
I would love to have some for my SHTF
View Quote
You will most likely have to load your own
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 12:51:20 AM EST
To reduce velocity further you could pick a high volume powder like Li’l gun or something else that could fill the case but get you close to sub sonic.

On the other side it’d be interesting to see some accuracy testing of 855A1 with some controls like Mk262 or FGMM.
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 9:46:01 AM EST
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Originally Posted By LWRCguy:
Where can you pick up a few boxes of this?
I would love to have some for my SHTF
View Quote
I do not believe the M855A1 projectile is available for civilian purchase...strictly military...somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Quite a few years back, a demil guy was selling these at a local gun show. I went back to see if he had any left, he said that he was forced to relinquish all the pulled projectiles he had...no questions asked, no reimbursement, and was told that it was illegal for anyone to have possess any of it outside of the miliatry. It was a cool looking projectile.
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 9:58:26 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Generand:

I do not believe the M855A1 projectile is available for civilian purchase...strictly military...somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Quite a few years back, a demil guy was selling these at a local gun show. I went back to see if he had any left, he said that he was forced to relinquish all the pulled projectiles he had...no questions asked, no reimbursement, and was told that it was illegal for anyone to have possess any of it outside of the miliatry. It was a cool looking projectile.
View Quote
You are exactly correct. It is classified as "BALL" ammunition, but its penetrative capabilities are such that it will never be released to the civilian market. It is a nasty, nasty round.
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 11:16:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/8/2018 12:38:33 AM EST by Buffman_LT1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Generand:

I do not believe the M855A1 projectile is available for civilian purchase...strictly military...somebody correct me if I'm wrong. Quite a few years back, a demil guy was selling these at a local gun show. I went back to see if he had any left, he said that he was forced to relinquish all the pulled projectiles he had...no questions asked, no reimbursement, and was told that it was illegal for anyone to have possess any of it outside of the miliatry. It was a cool looking projectile.
View Quote
LOL, maybe early on I could believe this. Kind of like leaking specs and pictures of a yet to be released iphone, but American Reloading has sold probably 100000s of M855A1 projectiles, and tons of the loaded variants are all over GB!, Armslist,etc now. American Reloading had M80A1 projectiles as well, and that while being more scarce has shown up on the market as well. Technically by definition, it's not AP, since it's core is copper. I'm not old enough to know, but how long after M855 was out, did it become available as is today in the market?

I was contacted about a few of my tests, where some grumpy ass guy tried to tell us that 855A1/80A1 was a DD, and I better take down all of my videos.. Told that guy to pound sand..
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 11:45:30 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
Matt is in Michigan and Andrew is in Arizona. I'm sure that has something to do with it. (Temp and Elevation)
View Quote
I've hit approx 3100 fps with my 20" and the current lot I was using to test. I have some other lots of this at home now and may try and see what they fetch velocity wise.
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 5:53:12 PM EST
Try Trail Boss powder.
Link Posted: 3/7/2018 8:28:12 PM EST
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[b]Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:

I was contacted about a few of my tests, where some grumpy ass military guy tried to tell us that 855A1/80A1 was a DD, and I better take down all of my videos.. Told that guy to pound sand..
View Quote
Get a visit from them yet?
Link Posted: 3/8/2018 12:38:09 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Bearcat24:

Get a visit from them yet?
View Quote
Nope. I went back and looked at who it was that emailed a few of us. He's some SME/contributor on a few projects. He tried claiming we had to sign NDA's to buy M855A1/M80A1, that they were considered DD, and that we were only helping the enemy..
Link Posted: 3/8/2018 10:40:18 AM EST
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Originally Posted By King_Mud:

If he’ll do the work I would especially if he could sneak in some 75 grain Gold Dots since that’s my go-to ammo and I’d really like to see how it performs at distance. I could get that cheaper barrel and cut it to any length wanted, it would be easy to cut it at the carbine gas port and a 7” would simulate longer range pretty well even with factory ammo. Supplying stuff is the easy part, doing the testing is the work though.
View Quote
I could do that, but I'm not sure when I'd have the time to mount the barrel to a receiver so it might be a while. I think I'll just keep an eye out for a 7" upper for cheap. That way I can test other loads too.
Link Posted: 3/9/2018 11:33:09 AM EST
Great videos as usual. Thank you
Link Posted: 3/11/2018 9:24:52 AM EST
I just read this article which claims this ammo really beats-up the firearm and the increased chamber pressure is dangerous, thoughts?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
Link Posted: 3/11/2018 11:43:11 AM EST
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Originally Posted By picrthis:
I just read this article which claims this ammo really beats-up the firearm and the increased chamber pressure is dangerous, thoughts?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
View Quote
Use proper mags. PMAG Gen2 or higher, or the new blue follower Army Mag. Alleviates feedramp/barrel extension damage.

Lots newer than 2013 are around 53000PSI
Link Posted: 3/11/2018 2:39:26 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Use proper mags. PMAG Gen2 or higher, or the new blue follower Army Mag. Alleviates feedramp/barrel extension damage.

Lots newer than 2013 are around 53000PSI
View Quote
PLus said article is 6yrs old :D
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 9:23:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Use proper mags. PMAG Gen23 or higher, or the new blue follower Army Mag. Alleviates feedramp/barrel extension damage.

Lots newer than 2013 are around 53000PSI
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Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Originally Posted By picrthis:
I just read this article which claims this ammo really beats-up the firearm and the increased chamber pressure is dangerous, thoughts?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
Use proper mags. PMAG Gen23 or higher, or the new blue follower Army Mag. Alleviates feedramp/barrel extension damage.

Lots newer than 2013 are around 53000PSI
FIFY
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 11:23:04 AM EST
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Originally Posted By 10mm_:
FIFY
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Those keys are right next to each other.

Although, I have noticed no damage while using Gen2s
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 12:15:00 PM EST
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Originally Posted By picrthis:
I just read this article which claims this ammo really beats-up the firearm and the increased chamber pressure is dangerous, thoughts?

http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
View Quote
Typical gun rag BS. They didn't research well, repeated anecdotal myths, and relied on old info. Don't believe anything you read in the major pubs. They're just advertising vehicles. Not that ads are bad, but they don't really do journalism.
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 12:33:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:

Typical gun rag BS. They didn't research well, repeated anecdotal myths, and relied on old info. Don't believe anything you read in the major pubs. They're just advertising vehicles. Not that ads are bad, but they don't really do journalism.
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And that's why I like your channel(s).

I hope you get to work with Ian and Karl from InRange TV (even if only a little bit) in the future. I think it would be great.
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 12:55:37 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Those keys are right next to each other.

Although, I have noticed no damage while using Gen2s
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Originally Posted By cvtrpr:
Originally Posted By 10mm_:
FIFY
Those keys are right next to each other.

Although, I have noticed no damage while using Gen2s
Link Posted: 3/12/2018 1:06:34 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Anti_Russian:

And that's why I like your channel(s).

I hope you get to work with Ian and Karl from InRange TV (even if only a little bit) in the future. I think it would be great.
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What is his channel? I'm ooking for something new to watch today.
Link Posted: 3/13/2018 11:38:48 AM EST
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Originally Posted By fordkicksass:

What is his channel? I'm ooking for something new to watch today.
View Quote
The Chopping Block.
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 11:28:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/30/2018 11:54:36 AM EST by dogsdad]
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Originally Posted By Anti_Russian:
Thank you for your straight-forward reply, bf.

I was thinking I'd get made fun of for writing that post. Glad it was considered not-too-dumb, and not trollish.

I'm wondering just how large of a gel block would be ideal for a true 200-yard, or 300-yard, shot? I know gel is expensive, but perhaps you could create a 'gofundme' page for a single investment into what would be a 2'x'2'x4' gel block for a few real distance tests? I bet some others here would like to see them.
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Originally Posted By Anti_Russian:
Originally Posted By bluefalcon:

You could be correct, but not in the ways you think. Impact angle should have little effect on terminal performance, but it will vary dramatically in the field anyway, independent of range. Yaw angle could affect bullet performance and rotational velocity could affect yaw angle. But this projectile does not appear to rely on yaw to do its thing. Nevertheless, a slower MV means lower rotational velocity. Bullets bleed forward velocity over distance, but lose very little rotational velocity. That's the biggest variable that can't be controlled in this test.
Thank you for your straight-forward reply, bf.

I was thinking I'd get made fun of for writing that post. Glad it was considered not-too-dumb, and not trollish.

I'm wondering just how large of a gel block would be ideal for a true 200-yard, or 300-yard, shot? I know gel is expensive, but perhaps you could create a 'gofundme' page for a single investment into what would be a 2'x'2'x4' gel block for a few real distance tests? I bet some others here would like to see them.
What you're describing is tractability, which is the tendency of a projectile to fly with its axis of rotation tangent to its trajectory. "Perfectly nose first" is easier to say and imagine, even though it is less technically correct because there is always a very small error known as "yaw of repose" in the bullet's orientation in flight. Properly stabilized bullets remain tractable throughout their flight when fired at a practical angle of elevation. If that was not so, then at very LONG ranges the trajectory would become unpredictable making hits impossible.
Link Posted: 3/30/2018 1:12:30 PM EST
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Originally Posted By dogsdad:

What you're describing is tractability, which is the tendency of a projectile to fly with its axis of rotation tangent to its trajectory. "Perfectly nose first" is easier to say and imagine, even though it is less technically correct because there is always a very small error known as "yaw of repose" in the bullet's orientation in flight. Properly stabilized bullets remain tractable throughout their flight when fired at a practical angle of elevation. If that was not so, then at very LONG ranges the trajectory would become unpredictable making hits impossible.
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