Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Page AR-15 » Slings and Other Accessories
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Posted: 11/17/2006 8:18:37 PM EDT
Surefire M73, brand new, and Tango Down VFG.  After pushing it up and down every position on the rail, getting the "click" that the directions said to listen for, it still wobbles back and fourth ridiculously.There is alot of play side by side.  I saw a thread about this before, but it was before I had mine.  Some help would be appreciated, I expected alot more out of this VFG.
Link Posted: 11/17/2006 8:43:52 PM EDT
[#1]
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.
Link Posted: 11/17/2006 9:31:56 PM EDT
[#2]
I got a used one off a guy with a surefire M73 and he told me that he had to trim the grip just a little bit on the inside where it matches up to the rails to get it to be secure.  He did a good job, I can't see where it was trimmed or modified, but it locks in really well, not only on the surefire M73 but on a YHM free float I have here as well.

Link Posted: 11/17/2006 10:59:33 PM EDT
[#3]
Try using a zip tie under the levers.
Link Posted: 11/18/2006 7:19:46 AM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 11/18/2006 8:11:32 AM EDT
[#5]
Use an eight inch ziptie thru the slots, tighten, then cut the excess off.  Also, if you screw up trimming the TD VFG, go to the TD website and order a new set of latches.

http://www.tangodown.com/shop/
Link Posted: 11/18/2006 3:53:09 PM EDT
[#6]
anyone have any specific info in where I should trim/ and what with? dremel?
Link Posted: 11/18/2006 4:01:57 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:
anyone have any specific info in where I should trim/ and what with? dremel?


Just put it up to the rail as if you were going to slide it on.  If it's hitting in a certain area, you'll see where the resistance is.  

I had to trim the inside of mine in order for it to fit on my Yankee Hill carbine handguards.  Works like a charm now.

ETA:  I just shaved mine with a pocket knife.
Link Posted: 11/19/2006 7:23:53 AM EDT
[#8]
I have never had any problem with the TD VFGs with my KAC and Larue forends , so the problem is in the rail 100% sure , use zipties and I'm sure you'll be GTG .

PP out
Link Posted: 11/19/2006 3:42:29 PM EDT
[#9]
It's the Surefire fore end. Not sure what Surefire was thinking when they chose the rail dimensions. A lot of accessories will not correctly fit their rails.

Full-Auto
Link Posted: 11/19/2006 4:07:23 PM EDT
[#10]

Quoted:
anyone have any specific info in where I should trim/ and what with? dremel?



I have a M73 and TD and had the same problem.  I trimmed the sides of the locking bars a little at a time until I got a good fit, then I used a 8" cable tie through the holes and it pused the bars up into the rail locking it in place.  

If you don't want to cut the bars you can just put the cable tie through (not the ones that come with the grip but thicker ones and it will make the grip solid, it won't completely push the bars up but it will be solid with no movement.

Also TD is coming out with some kind of kit for TDVG's that don't fiut certain rails. I'm not sure exactly what it is but it supposed to make the VG fit on out of spec rails.
Link Posted: 11/22/2006 5:12:17 PM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.


+1
Link Posted: 11/22/2006 8:20:53 PM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.


+1


I also think the rails are the problem but there is another part of me that isn't so sure.  When I bought my M73 the little booklet it came with showed the exact dimensions of a 1913 rail and Surewfire states that their rails are 100% Mil spec.  Let me say this first, I am a huge fan of Surefire products so I am a little biased towards them but I find it hard to beleive that a company as good as Surefire would mess up on their rails making them out of spec.  Surefire is a company that makes sure they get things right,  But who knows
Link Posted: 11/24/2006 2:40:51 PM EDT
[#13]
A rail can not be 100% milspec. "Milspec" is a range of tolerance,not a precise measurement. Surefire's rails are probably at the extreme low end of that tolerance range,though. What I see as the problem, is that the TD VFG lacks a positive clamping mechanism. Anything that clamps to a rail should,IMO,be able to be tightened down. If your rail is not 'just right',the TD VFG will have some play. I've had one on rails from SF,Troy,and Larue,and all had some lateral wiggle(though the SF rail had the most). I think this is a big design flaw in an otherwise great product.
Link Posted: 11/26/2006 4:59:30 PM EDT
[#14]
hey guys,
              I'm glad I found this thread.  I have the same problem.  I have a Samson MRFS-CX and the Tango Down VFG.  Mine wobbles from side to side only.  I "dremeled"
the locking pins so they would sit on the rail's bottom wall.  The grip still wobbles a little from side to side...

Is it normal?  Should I demel more?  Is the VFG supposed to be tight as if it were "monolithic"

thanks!
Pat
Link Posted: 11/26/2006 5:22:29 PM EDT
[#15]
Could someone please tell me how the TD VFG fits on LaRue rail systems?  I would assume that it's perfect since I haven't heard any complaints, but I want to make sure.  
Link Posted: 11/27/2006 9:32:13 AM EDT
[#16]
my tangodown wobbles on my Larue 9.0, it is much tighter on my MP5 surefire railed forearm
Link Posted: 11/27/2006 5:39:25 PM EDT
[#17]

Quoted:
I have heard a lot of people say the SF rails are not exactly to the 1913 spec. This is why you have to modify the TD grip to work. So the problem is the rails not the TD grip.

Did you buy the TD new? If it was used and someone already modified it, they may have done a bad job of it and opened it up to much. In which case your only option is to use another grip.

I know the SF rails are very popular because the lock in place, but this kind of thing is why I won't use one.

Good luck.


I have been using Surefire M73 rails and a TD VFG forever. It's always fit perfectly.
Link Posted: 11/28/2006 8:27:32 PM EDT
[#18]
I have an oly arms firsh and had to sand down the vfg.  If I knew that the rails were not true spec, I would have spent the extra $ on a Larue.  Live and learn.  The TD VFG is a nice product though.
Link Posted: 11/28/2006 8:33:17 PM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.



Yup
Link Posted: 11/28/2006 8:37:07 PM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.



Yup


ok well you go ahead and tell mark larue (who is a member here) that his rails are out of spec.

is there a reference anywhere for the best way to remove wobble from a tangodown VFG? my TD VFG on my Larue rail is looser than pamela anderson's... nevermind. both side to side a front to back wobble with the side to side being worse
Link Posted: 11/29/2006 7:41:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Is there a VFG out there that has a solid locking mechanism that doesn't need to be dremeled or zip tied to stop wiggling? How about making a LaRue locking lever mount to attach a handle to?
Link Posted: 11/29/2006 10:27:14 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.



Yup


ok well you go ahead and tell mark larue (who is a member here) that his rails are out of spec.

is there a reference anywhere for the best way to remove wobble from a tangodown VFG? my TD VFG on my Larue rail is looser than pamela anderson's... nevermind. both side to side a front to back wobble with the side to side being worse


I was speaking specifically about the Surefire rail.

I have a TD VFG on my Samson and it is rock solid, cant say about a LaRue
Link Posted: 11/29/2006 4:36:47 PM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.



Yup


ok well you go ahead and tell mark larue (who is a member here) that his rails are out of spec.

is there a reference anywhere for the best way to remove wobble from a tangodown VFG? my TD VFG on my Larue rail is looser than pamela anderson's... nevermind. both side to side a front to back wobble with the side to side being worse


I was speaking specifically about the Surefire rail.

I have a TD VFG on my Samson and it is rock solid, cant say about a LaRue


I too have a Samson, but my TD VFG wobbles a bit to the sides.  I dremeled the locking bars so they would sit perfectly on the bottom of the rail.  What I noticed, is that the female rail section of the VFG doesn't fit "perfectly" on the rail of the handguard.  There is room between the oblique sections on each side of the rail.  That's why it wobbles side to side.

From reading the comments about many who have problems, I guess it must be the TD VFG's specs that may be to wide or more difficult to apply.  I would think that steel rail specs would be more severe or more "controlable" than those of a plastic part...

Anyway here's the real question : What would be the brilliant solution (forget tie raps and adding non-secured parts... after all we have spent big money to have a quality weapon with accessories) to make a VFG rock solid if it wobbles even when the locking bars are perfectly secured on the rail???
Link Posted: 11/29/2006 6:02:10 PM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
It's the rails that are the problem, not the grip.



Yup


ok well you go ahead and tell mark larue (who is a member here) that his rails are out of spec.

is there a reference anywhere for the best way to remove wobble from a tangodown VFG? my TD VFG on my Larue rail is looser than pamela anderson's... nevermind. both side to side a front to back wobble with the side to side being worse


I was speaking specifically about the Surefire rail.

I have a TD VFG on my Samson and it is rock solid, cant say about a LaRue


I too have a Samson, but my TD VFG wobbles a bit to the sides.  I dremeled the locking bars so they would sit perfectly on the bottom of the rail.  What I noticed, is that the female rail section of the VFG doesn't fit "perfectly" on the rail of the handguard.  There is room between the oblique sections on each side of the rail.  That's why it wobbles side to side.

From reading the comments about many who have problems, I guess it must be the TD VFG's specs that may be to wide or more difficult to apply.  I would think that steel rail specs would be more severe or more "controlable" than those of a plastic part...

Anyway here's the real question : What would be the brilliant solution (forget tie raps and adding non-secured parts... after all we have spent big money to have a quality weapon with accessories) to make a VFG rock solid if it wobbles even when the locking bars are perfectly secured on the rail???


When you say wobble, how much exactly? Less than a knats' ass or signifigant wobble?

Hmm.... I had to lightly tap my TD on with a hammer to get it go. I didn't alter mine one bit.

The TD's are supposed to be to 1913 spec, and most people that use them on Mil spec rail systems seem to love em'. I would say that there are fewer complaints about the TD's than there are which praise them.

The only thing that I can suggest is to try different ones until you find whay works for you.
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 9:16:50 AM EDT
[#25]

When you say wobble, how much exactly? Less than a knats' ass or signifigant wobble?

Hmm.... I had to lightly tap my TD on with a hammer to get it go. I didn't alter mine one bit.

The TD's are supposed to be to 1913 spec, and most people that use them on Mil spec rail systems seem to love em'. I would say that there are fewer complaints about the TD's than there are which praise them.

The only thing that I can suggest is to try different ones until you find whay works for you.


Well it's hard to measure how much, but significantly to bug me.  When I hold the front of my AR with the VFG the AR can cant a little on both sides.  It's not that big a deal, but I'm really fussy when it comes to my AR...

I don't want to go in the trouble of testing different products since I have to order my stuff from "far away"...

I'm just disapointed that it won't fit rock solid as it should.
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 11:46:18 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:

When you say wobble, how much exactly? Less than a knats' ass or signifigant wobble?

Hmm.... I had to lightly tap my TD on with a hammer to get it go. I didn't alter mine one bit.

The TD's are supposed to be to 1913 spec, and most people that use them on Mil spec rail systems seem to love em'. I would say that there are fewer complaints about the TD's than there are which praise them.

The only thing that I can suggest is to try different ones until you find whay works for you.


Well it's hard to measure how much, but significantly to bug me.  When I hold the front of my AR with the VFG the AR can cant a little on both sides.  It's not that big a deal, but I'm really fussy when it comes to my AR...

I don't want to go in the trouble of testing different products since I have to order my stuff from "far away"...

I'm just disapointed that it won't fit rock solid as it should.


Get an Arms #23 if you want a solid lockup.
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 12:19:51 PM EDT
[#27]
My TD Vert Grips wobbles on both my LaRue 7.0 and LaRue 9.0 HG's.  I tried the zip tie trick and that didn't work.  I have a fix that works perfectly and takes only a few minutes.  I take a chisel (sp?) and knock a small piece of wood off a 2x4 the width of the rail.  I then take a sanding drum on my dremel tool and shape a mini wedge out of the wood chip.  I then take the mini wedge and slip it between the rail and TD vert grip and tap it in place with a rubber or plastic mallet.  Score the wedge with a razor knife and break the excess wedge off.  You will not see the wedge at all and the TD will be rock solid.  If you want to take the TD grip off, you can very easilly, but you will have to make another wedge when you put if back on.  I have wedges on both my TD grips and they are going on two years without any wobble.

MadDog
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 12:34:14 PM EDT
[#28]

Get an Arms #23 if you want a solid lockup.


Ya... it has a throw lever mount (great thing!) but it doesn't have the TD configuration...  I have the TD VFG with the remote switch pocket and I use it with my surefire 9P so...

A good thing would be a TD VFG with a throw lever mount...  Anyone wants to manufacture those??
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 12:37:08 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
My TD Vert Grips wobbles on both my LaRue 7.0 and LaRue 9.0 HG's.  I tried the zip tie trick and that didn't work.  I have a fix that works perfectly and takes only a few minutes.  I take a chisel (sp?) and knock a small piece of wood off a 2x4 the width of the rail.  I then take a sanding drum on my dremel tool and shape a mini wedge out of the wood chip.  I then take the mini wedge and slip it between the rail and TD vert grip and tap it in place with a rubber or plastic mallet.  Score the wedge with a razor knife and break the excess wedge off.  You will not see the wedge at all and the TD will be rock solid.  If you want to take the TD grip off, you can very easilly, but you will have to make another wedge when you put if back on.  I have wedges on both my TD grips and they are going on two years without any wobble.

MadDog


Tim the tool man Taylor!  I guess I'm gonna end doing something like this.

TD must be aware of this problem no?  Anyone know if they're working on a solution?
Link Posted: 11/30/2006 12:52:13 PM EDT
[#30]
buy a Pro-Mag VFG!



seriously, doesn't move one iota and don't have to be trimmed.
Link Posted: 12/1/2006 5:50:35 PM EDT
[#31]
I refuse to buy anything pro-mag

I have the TD VFG on a midwest industries 2pc... I had to hammer it on after I got tired of trying to trim it.

I dont like the surefire rails because they are not on the same level as most uppers.... *shrug*

any further rails I pick up will be LaRue
Link Posted: 12/2/2006 1:37:31 PM EDT
[#32]
I've seen the TD grip wobble on all matter of rails.
Link Posted: 12/3/2006 10:50:23 AM EDT
[#33]

Quoted:
I refuse to buy anything pro-mag

I have the TD VFG on a midwest industries 2pc... I had to hammer it on after I got tired of trying to trim it.

I dont like the surefire rails because they are not on the same level as most uppers.... *shrug*

any further rails I pick up will be LaRue


fine, I can understand avoiding their optic mounts and perhaps any other "precision" bits and pieces they produce.  

but

a VFG is nothing more than a rail mounted peg.  A $75-80 VFG (think Dieter) and a $15 VFG serve the same core purpose.

by all means though, spend 3 times as much for a plastic peg, that wobbles, has to be modified to perform properly (even that is no guarantee), etc. etc.
Link Posted: 12/4/2006 9:44:07 AM EDT
[#34]
i've had two TD VFG's wiggle a bit on my DD 7.0 rail.  W/ that said I just got used to it.  I have tried the same two TD VFG's on a KAC M5 and they lock up tight.
Link Posted: 12/4/2006 10:47:42 PM EDT
[#35]
Link Posted: 12/5/2006 6:41:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 12/5/2006 11:22:38 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:
TD VFGs are terrible.  Overpriced plastic that wiggles around on every rifle i have ever encountered with one.





ok
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 12:32:20 AM EDT
[#38]
There was another thread like this in AR Discussions recently.  I was surprised to hear how many of these wobble.  

Mine is rock solid on my MI rail.  At a recent shoot, someone had one on a DD rail that was really loose.  

Had I known these were hit or miss on fit, I wouldnt have bought one.  I guess I just got lucky.  
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 1:10:46 AM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
Is there a VFG out there that has a solid locking mechanism that doesn't need to be dremeled or zip tied to stop wiggling? How about making a LaRue locking lever mount to attach a handle to?


I have a cheap one that I bought at a show for 10 bucks and it is like a piece of stone. Completely solid and has held up perfectly for me through many thousands of rounds!
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 1:40:54 AM EDT
[#40]
TD is going to eventually wobble on any rail.  It's a plastic part mated to a metal part. A few thousands rounds of recoil and its going to wobble.  Mine has noticable front to back and significant side to side movement on a KAC RAS II after about 3K.  

A friend of mine showed Jeff Cahill (owner of tango down) how his TD grip wobbled on his LaRue rail. Jeff's response was it's normal.

Yes, for $70.00 you might expect more. But until LaRue makes a vert grip you are going to have some movement in them.
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 4:34:48 AM EDT
[#41]

A friend of mine showed Jeff Cahill (owner of tango down) how his TD grip wobbled on his LaRue rail. Jeff's response was it's normal.

Yes, for $70.00 you might expect more. But until LaRue makes a vert grip you are going to have some movement in them.


Geez!  What a response!  For 70$+ for a plastic grip it better damn be working as it should be, or it should be noted on the package " may not fit tightly, it's NORMAL"  

And here we're not talking about fatigue after a few 1000 rounds, it's been wobbling since I put it on the rail.

It seems there really is a wide spread problem with the TD VFG fixation.  TD should look at it.
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 9:27:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 11:03:46 AM EDT
[#43]
I frankly think the TD is the biggest ripoff going right now in AR parts.
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 1:01:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Funny,at the beginning of this thread,there were several people saying that the problem was that the SF rail is "out of spec". Now that others have weighed in with loose TD VFG on their Larue,etc rails,is the problem still the SF rail? HA!
 As I said earlier,"spec" is a range of tolerance. The TD VFG is NOT a go/no-go gauge for 1913 rail spec. Any part that mounts on a rail(especially a part that you will be applying considerable force to) should have a POSITIVE clamping mechanism that can be tightened down.
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 1:38:04 PM EDT
[#45]
So what we want then is a TD verticle grip with a Larue mount?  Boy it just keeps getting more and more expensive
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 3:26:31 PM EDT
[#46]

Quoted:
Funny,at the beginning of this thread,there were several people saying that the problem was that the SF rail is "out of spec". Now that others have weighed in with loose TD VFG on their Larue,etc rails,is the problem still the SF rail? HA!
 As I said earlier,"spec" is a range of tolerance. The TD VFG is NOT a go/no-go gauge for 1913 rail spec. Any part that mounts on a rail(especially a part that you will be applying considerable force to) should have a POSITIVE clamping mechanism that can be tightened down.


+1
Link Posted: 12/6/2006 4:00:52 PM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:
Funny,at the beginning of this thread,there were several people saying that the problem was that the SF rail is "out of spec". Now that others have weighed in with loose TD VFG on their Larue,etc rails,is the problem still the SF rail? HA!
 As I said earlier,"spec" is a range of tolerance. The TD VFG is NOT a go/no-go gauge for 1913 rail spec. Any part that mounts on a rail(especially a part that you will be applying considerable force to) should have a POSITIVE clamping mechanism that can be tightened down.

Oddly enough, it looks like TDI will be offering an "adapter kit" for using the $70 grip on rails that are "under- or over-size."
Coming Soon!
Link Posted: 12/7/2006 12:27:45 AM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
So what we want then is a TD verticle grip with a Larue mount?  Boy it just keeps getting more and more expensive


Nope.  I want an all LaRue VG.
Link Posted: 12/7/2006 6:13:39 AM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Is there a VFG out there that has a solid locking mechanism that doesn't need to be dremeled or zip tied to stop wiggling? How about making a LaRue locking lever mount to attach a handle to?


I have a cheap one that I bought at a show for 10 bucks and it is like a piece of stone. Completely solid and has held up perfectly for me through many thousands of rounds!


if it's of the non-folding variety, it's probably a Pro-Mag or other KAC look-alike.



IMO, they work as well or better than others.  (I have VLTOR clubfoots for storage)
Link Posted: 12/7/2006 9:17:20 AM EDT
[#50]
Gentlemen,

I was just advised of this thread and would like to offer the following comments
on the below posts:

AR15fan- I have never had a conversation with anyone per you claim. I have been told you have posted this 'information' before. You can substantiate this, right? Also, we have test Gov M4s of upward 10m rounds now, and the grips are rock solid as the day they were installed.

If you have fore and aft grip movement on your RASII, there is an issue elsewhere. Was the rail measured per our directions?

BrianD- No, our grip is not a go-no go gage. Our grip is designed to be compatable with a MIL-STD 1913 rail throughout its US Government accepted tolerance range. If the rail is out of that range, you may have difficulty in installation or see slight side to side movement. We can guarantee the fit on US Mil accepted rails. We can't guarantee the fit on commercial rails. There are some mfg's that closely follow MIL-STD 1913, some that don't. Funny, in any thread about our grip, no one has measured the "on all matter of rails" and offered that data.  

ARin- Class, man.

Phoebus- Your opinion. You have no idea what current R&D and mold fabrication expense is, let alone marketing, distribution and liability insurance in the firearm industry. Oh, put employee payroll, med insurance, workmans comp, etc on that stack.

We at TangoDown LLC make every effort to offer combat grade components that will serve the operator well. Our grip will not fail if offered severe impact force. It will not come off the gun until the shooter decides. Being a CQB component, any slight movement after impact or over removal-installation will disappear once the gun is mounted. It never affects accuracy or weapon manipulation. If severly used or abused, as with any component, it should be replaced when possible. It is not one of The Pyramids. It is a fore grip that sees a lot of impact force and leverage.

We will offer a simple inexpensive adapter that will allow our grip to fit non- MIL STD 1913 rails right after SHOT Show this year. That will adapter will allow use with our ACB-4 bipod, something a throw lever mount will not.

Our BGV-MK46 grip was issued NSN# 1010-01-536 4707, and will be issued on several new weapon systems such as USSOCOM SCAR, USMC 40MM rotary grenade launcher, etc. as well as in the new SOPMOD II kit.

Bottom line, we support our products 100%. If you are unhappy with any TD LLC product,
contact us and we will back you up. It's that simple.

Hope this information helps-

Best,

Jeff Cahill
TangoDown LLC

Arrow Left Previous Page
Page / 3
Page AR-15 » Slings and Other Accessories
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top