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Wasn't thinking M16 parts at all! AFAIK the bolt carrier and fire control parts are the only things that are found in the M16 that make it a 'machine gun'. I was talkin' everything else, with the probable exception of the lower.

Someone who should know once told me that there were only two companies that forged AR/M16 uppers - FN and Maremont. I haven't been able to verify that. Who uses the NATO cross & circle with the letters AR designation?

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Does anyone out there know the truth regarding FN parts and their availability to the public and/or other ligitimate manufacturers? I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to believe anymore!

TIA

OK so you already have an AR and want to upgrade it to make it more reliable.  First lets talk about part suppliers.  Many are indicating the parts they get are ‘FN’ Manufactured (they hold the current M16A2 contract for the US Army).  BEWARE OF ANYONE SELLING “FN” PARTS/BARRELS/RECEIVERS – AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE.  FN is prohibited from selling rifles or parts on the commercial market.  FN can not legally produce AR-15s, so all their fire control parts are M16A2 (thus not legal in a typical AR-15).  Any parts that are ‘truly’ FN produced were either stolen, or were factory rejects that were sold as scrap.  Buying stolen item is never a good idea, and using what may be factory rejects isn’t smart either.  Do you want to bet you life that ‘FN’ barrel you bought doesn’t have some sort of flaw in the steel?  Another point to consider.  Most AR parts are not marked as to the manufacturer, many shady dealers sell their parts as ‘FN’ knowing no right minded person will buy ‘factory seconds’ or ‘ cheap imported parts’.  A word to the wise – stick with the big three for parts.

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It is possible if not probable, that the contractor who makes the uppers for FN also makes them genericaly. This doesn't necessarily make them seconds or rejects.

To make them marketable the tag gets attached that these are made by the same contractor who make FN uppers. As the story gets passed from wholesaler to distributer to retailer it changes to FN contractor uppers, to FN contract uppers, to FN uppers.

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OK, so it's claimed that FN is prohibited from selling parts on the 'commercial market'. Does this also mean that they cannot or do not sell parts and/or unfinished forgings to other FFL manufacturers?

Are unmachined forgings going out to some of our domestic AR manufacturers, getting the finish work done by them, and then being assembled into complete rifles, uppers, and lowers for retail sale? If that is so, then to take this one step further, could overruns of these parts wind up being sold as spares on the retail and wholesale markets?

Remember that just like a brand new automobile, an AR would bring several times its cost if sold as new uninstalled seperate parts (at retail pricing). If there are FN components in AR's being legally manufactured and sold on the retail market, then why the secrecy? I don't trust the French anyway!

And for those that live by the letter of what they read on a website, would you be shocked to find out that parts (an upper forging for example) that came from the manufacturer of your (Armalite for example) originated at FN? Take this one step further - would you be surprised to find out that companies that are claiming to sell rifles made with FN parts are telling the truth? Are they purchasing unfinished FN parts and contracting out the finish work, then selling the completed rifle or component on the civilian market?

I'm not posting these questions just to be a pain in the ass! I'd really like to find out what the truth is. I don't believe that if a part is made by FN it's better or more valuable than an equivalent part manufactured by someone else. I'd just like to get to the bottom of it, once and for all!

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[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=4&t=141117[/url]

Mike

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It's brand new.  Are you saying that it's a second?

However since FN doesn't sell to the public that means these barrels were either stolen ... or they are factory rejects that were sold as scrap.

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Please re-read



Ya gots two options there.

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Shamayim,
        What's wrong, did I hit on a sore spot. Take it easy - remember your blood pressure!

As to your questions:
"How do you know?" I don't know, that's why I'm here questioning the conventional wisdom.

"...how would a raw forging produced by FN become an FN product?" Easy. "produced by" = "product". That's plain English.

"...FN does not sell.....to the civilian market." Are you at all familiar with the way Remington "LE only" guns and parts get into civilian hands? I am!

How do I know "for sure"? Actually, I don't know "for sure" or otherwise. My question to you is - how do YOU know for sure? If your knowledge only comes in the form of a letter from FN, did you also buy stock in Enron?

Now tell me what's so hard for YOU to understand.

Guys,
     Please help me here! Did I unknowingly dare to throw some doubt upon a sacred cow? I thought that this forum was meant for questions and friendly debate. Tell me that I'm not wrong.

Quoted:
Does anyone out there know the truth regarding FN parts and their availability to the public and/or other ligitimate manufacturers? I've heard so many stories that I don't know what to believe anymore!

On the same subject, who manufactures an A2 upper that carries the raised identification of the crosshairs in circle (like NATO) along with the letters AR on the right side of the carry handle just forward of the rear sight base?

Here is what you need to know. FN is a manufacturer in Belguim. The rifle is a FAL or in english LAR Light Automatic Rifle. You can buy complete FN FAL parts kits for around $150. Don't do it. Buy a Steyr Fal parts kit from DSA and buy nothing but a DSA upper receiver. They will also headspace and barrel for you and solder on muzzle brake. I went to the Entreprise site the other day and almost crapped myself as they have a picture of a guy barreling up a receiver with the receiver wrench in a vise and an adjustable wrench on the barrel, you will seen this done by people on websites who also use 80 grit sanding discs to remove part of the barrel shoulder when their cheap receiver doesn't time right, stay away from these FAL butchers. Also, DO NOT weld a muzzle brake on with a MAP gas torch, this will not only burn off the finish it will create soft spots in the barrel. DSA has an infusion machine that works like an oven direct from Steyr of Austria. Stay away from Entreprise, Hesse, Armscorp their stuff is made in a cave by a guy with a rock. DSA all the way. Warning....once you shoot a real FAL your AR-15 will seem completely irrelevent. You need to include 7 US parts to assemble the rifle to be legal. If you cheap out and buy an FN kit or lower, you will spend hours and hours poishing the sear down and the safety selector as all DSA parts are made to exact Steyr blueprints. DSA will tell you their trigger, hammer, sear set will drop right in an FN G1....but they don't. They do drop right into the Steyr. Also, ditch the full auto selector and replace with DSA semi auto selector and throw the de-milled receiver in the garbage, this is where the full-auto safety sear and ejector block are. If you want to do some long hard time as someones bitch, then have machine gun parts in your house, otherwise in the garbage before you get the receiver. The Steyr is a nice finished rifle with a hammer forged barrel (although using a used barrel is just dumb to me) The German FN G1's kickin' around were sold to the Germans after WW2 for their internal police work then sold to Turkey and they look like they were used as wheel chocks and shovels. When FN refused to grant Germany the contract to build the FAL themselves, as the Belgians were still a bit miffed with Germany in the 50's Germany went to Spain and got the contract to build the CETME which is known as the HKG3 if you ask me, they are both garbage. The FAL is the best rifle ever made. The M1A is great but the result of US Military arrogance and politics. John Browning designed the Fal and it is hands down the best rifle ever made. www.dsarms.com
DSA is the only way to go
PS be careful with Imbel receivers. The receiver is the regulated part and I have heard rumors that ATF has been sniffing around looking for pre-ban Imbel's being built. Don't be cheap and stupid and go to jail and don't buy junk. Hope this helps.
Welcome to the world of Men's rifles.
www.fnfal.com

TIA