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Posted: 7/17/2008 9:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 9:14:44 AM EDT by COLT]
When looking for an AR-15 that meets (all?) SITUATIONS.

Most people are looking for a compact ar-15 for mobility.

THE 14.5 m4 carbine is compact but the ammo doesn't have full burn, and a shorter sight radias.

The 20 inch AR15 is great for full burn and rifle length sites but not very mobile in autos.

The 16 inch ar15 is better for mobility but still doesn't have full burn or rifle length sites.


In my opinion the answer is the 18inch AR-15 and Collapsible stock only 3.5inches longer than the m4 carbine. Better velocity and more mobility and rifle length sites.


www.cmmginc.com makes several

http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=1183615&cat=32&

Then tab down the page.

OPINIONS AND COMMENTS WELCOME


Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:16:04 AM EDT
colt 6920
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:18:09 AM EDT
In my opinion at real combat ranges even an 11.5 barrel would do.Full burn on the ammo to me really wouldnt matter if gunfights are taking place at 15 to 40 yds.Thats why my go to ammo are hollowpoints but even at that range im sure ball would be fine to.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:43:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 10:00:45 AM EDT by DevL]
IMO anything longer than 11.5"-12.5" for 5.56 is just going to be excessively long and nose heavy when you add the inevitable silencer.

If you want a bullet to fragment over the 100+ yards that this barrel length already allows for optimal results then step up in caliber. Denny sells a great 12" 6.8 barrel and Noveske has a 12.5" 6.8 barrel. If you want even more range than that (now you have over 200 yards of range where more than one loading type still fragments) I think its more of a dedicated long range/precision rig and all you need there is a 16-18" 7.62/.308 rifle. If you need more range than THAT get a bolt gun.

Also what does "full burn on ammo" mean? If it means all the powder is burned not even a 20" does that. Iit means you have reached maximum velocity not even a 20" will do that either. Even an 11.5" barrel can have pretty much nil on flash with a good flash hider.

Finally... who needs anything more than a carbine iron sight length since its just a back up sighting system. Use optics and its a non issue.

This is MY "do it all" rifle. Id still like to tweak it a bit more. 1-6X scope instead of 1-4X for a bit more precision at range, a UBR to help balance the silencer a bit better, a barrel that does 1 MOA instead of 1.5 MOA, etc.

Its approx a 12" barrel, its the same length as a 16" plus flash hider with the silencer mounted. You cant see any muzzle flash with the silencer off and it plenty handy in tight confines with the silencer off.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:52:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
IMO anything longer than 11.5"-12.5" for 5.56 is just going to be excessively long and nose heavy when you add the inevitable silencer.

If you want a bullet to fragment over the 100+ yards that this barrel length already allows for optimal results then step up in caliber. Denny sells a great 12" 6.8 barrel and Noveske has a 12.5" 6.8 barrel. If you want even more range than that (now you have over 200 yards of range where more than one loading type still fragments) I think its more of a dedicated long range/precision rig and all you need there is a 16-18" 7.62/.308 rifle. If you need more range than THAT get a bolt gun.

Also what does "full burn on ammo" mean? If it means all the powder is burned not even a 20" does that. Iit means you have reached maximum velocity not even a 20" will do that either. Even an 11.5" barrel can have pretty much nil on flash with a good flash hider.

Finally... who needs anything more than a carbine iron sight length since its just a back up sighting system. Use optics and its a non issue.

lol... you put 'em down, didn't you. lol.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:56:08 AM EDT
10" to 11.5" in a SBR lower. I vote for Colt LE6933

Except for an all out war on American Soil (save SHTF or Teotwawki), where would 50+ yard fragmentation range be needed? If your taking out people at over 25 yards, I wonder if you could even justify a life threatening event.

my 2 cents
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 9:57:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 9:58:52 AM EDT by DevL]
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:03:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 10:05:14 AM EDT by Essayons]
For my purposes, the "perfect" AR would be similar to a C7A2 with a TA11E ACOG and plenty of good mags full of Black Hills 75 grain OTM. I'd use a LMT Crane SOPMOD stock and would probably free-float the barrel and add front and rear Troy BUISs.

I'm probably putting too much weight on the ability to make rounds fragment consistently out to 200 yards, but so be it . . .


Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:05:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/retardar.jpg



I can't believe that was nose heavy
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:08:28 AM EDT
I'm not much of a suppressor person...yeah I've used them. Not as many as others, but enough to know that they aren't worth the hassle...for me.

16" midlengths work fine for me...or carbine length...

My favorite is my A4 clone. Don't know why, esp. because I traded in my A4 for an A2 after they took my M4 away. Too heavy
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:08:30 AM EDT
I wonder why it is nose heavy . I don't think there is a prefect AR15. Pick a yardage . Do you want to get a can? Do you mind pinned on flash hiders? Is this to be fired out of a car window or prone in a field? SBR,SPR,CBQ? Your looking for an adjustable wrench when you need to find the correct wrench.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:12:31 AM EDT
I'd prefer an 11.5" with a LMT SOPMOD and and TA50R-4.
Perfect setup for everything that wants to do me harm.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:39:36 AM EDT
Suppressed: a MK18Mod1 type setup


Unsuppressed, I would prefer a M4 type rifle.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 10:57:19 AM EDT
Are we talking as a civilian or as a member of the military? As a civi give me something short and handy, if i blast at any distance i am probably screwed unless they are hiding in the bushes and lobbing rounds my way.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:06:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/17/2008 11:08:19 AM EDT by FortyFiveAutomatic]
full burn, lol

next time i go into the funshop, i'm going to make sure I ask if their guns offer "full burn" of ammo
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:13:40 AM EDT
There isn't one for all situations.

The 18" does most any task, but not ideally.

A 10-14.5" Carbine is generally more effective within 200m, even if the wounding ability is dimished somewhat. With a wider caliber, this limitation would be diminished as well, so bear in mind that 'perfect' may very well be a 6.8SPC close range SBR, paired with a longer range unit (18-21" in 6.5-7.62 caliber)...

Then again, I have a CMMG 18" upper - love the thing, but now I'm finishing up my 14.5", which I'm suspicious will get more use than my 18" (as nice as it is)
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:22:16 AM EDT
"Perfect " is totally subjective.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:36:39 AM EDT
16" is plenty for anything up to 400M IMO.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:38:10 AM EDT
The only perfect AR15 is the one I have when I need it.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 11:43:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/retardar.jpg


LOL! Space shuttle door gun at your disposal...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:16:11 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By QuicksilverJPR:
height=8
Originally Posted By DevL:
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/retardar.jpg


LOL! Space shuttle door gun at your disposal...


No joke, where is the freaking rifle in all that mess?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:23:34 PM EDT
height=8
If you want a bullet to fragment...


Where is the fragmentation supposed to occur, and why would you want this to happen?
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:31:16 PM EDT
Sometimes 55 gr bullets may or may not break at the cannelure even if velocity is at the required 2700 FPS to do so.People come in all shapes and sizes and what may fragment in one person may not in another.Hoping for fragmentation for performance should not be reliably counted on.You have better dependability with hollowpoints.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:35:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Whelen:

If you want a bullet to fragment...


Where is the fragmentation supposed to occur, and why would you want this to happen?


If you bullet doesn't fragment, you will just be punching 22 cal holes in your target. Fragmentation will do maximum damage. At what distance this occures will depend on your barrel length and bullet construction.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:44:14 PM EDT
There isn't really a perfect rifle for all situations only compromises.

The "recce" is a compromise concept meant for a do it all rifle.
I think perhaps the perfect AR-15 type rifle I have seen recently is the Barret REC 7.

Light(er) than most other rifles with out the heavy barrel, in 6.8 SPC for reach and punch, silencer ready, but I dislike SIR rails.

In all honesty for any mission from 3 to 600 yards the perfection is 3 different rifles. However with many of us on a budget (not all of us I see from this thread) it is impossible.

IMO, the perfect rifle is a heavy barrel 16 in carbine gas system and fixed front sight. (oh no not a middy ) with a car rail system. The rifle is set up with a red dot, sling, light (with IR filter), IR laser, and cowitness BUIS everything but the BUIS and sling should be mounted with QD levers. Over all the package should come in at around 9-9.5LBS with a loaded mag. The shooters NVGs are helmet mounted.

Now a scope can be kept with the shooter and thrown on in a hurry with a QD mount.

You now have a rifle that will shoot 2 MOA or better in any conditions out to 600 yards if the shooter is up to it. It is handy enough for CQB work but still capable of fast reflexive shooting out to 300M offhand. This could easily be adapted to an 18inch barrel.

The fact is a rifle of these specs can be put together for under $1800, or could be when the Cherrokee laser was available from AvengeUSA, and another $1800-$3000 for night vision. Silencers are nice and could easily be added if needed.

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:54:34 PM EDT
AK-47
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 1:55:11 PM EDT
Actually I like the M4 type with an Aimpoint.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 2:18:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:34:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
IMO anything longer than 11.5"-12.5" for 5.56 is just going to be excessively long and nose heavy when you add the inevitable silencer.

If you want a bullet to fragment over the 100+ yards that this barrel length already allows for optimal results then step up in caliber. Denny sells a great 12" 6.8 barrel and Noveske has a 12.5" 6.8 barrel. If you want even more range than that (now you have over 200 yards of range where more than one loading type still fragments) I think its more of a dedicated long range/precision rig and all you need there is a 16-18" 7.62/.308 rifle. If you need more range than THAT get a bolt gun.

Also what does "full burn on ammo" mean? If it means all the powder is burned not even a 20" does that. Iit means you have reached maximum velocity not even a 20" will do that either. Even an 11.5" barrel can have pretty much nil on flash with a good flash hider.

Finally... who needs anything more than a carbine iron sight length since its just a back up sighting system. Use optics and its a non issue.

This is MY "do it all" rifle. Id still like to tweak it a bit more. 1-6X scope instead of 1-4X for a bit more precision at range, a UBR to help balance the silencer a bit better, a barrel that does 1 MOA instead of 1.5 MOA, etc.

Its approx a 12" barrel, its the same length as a 16" plus flash hider with the silencer mounted. You cant see any muzzle flash with the silencer off and it plenty handy in tight confines with the silencer off.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/Picture165.jpg


That sure is a purdy rifle...

Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:43:59 PM EDT
height=8

If you bullet doesn't fragment, you will just be punching 22 cal holes in your target. Fragmentation will do maximum damage. At what distance this occures will depend on your barrel length and bullet construction.


If your bullet fragments, then you may not penetrate your target, and a .224" hole is better than no hole.

I suspect you may be thinking of bullet expansion, which is a good thing, in some circumstances, but has no dependancy on barrel length. What expansion is dependant on is impact velocity, and bullet design. Some bullets are designed to expand at higher or lower velocities than others, and some not at all. All bullets (good ones), that are designed to expand on impact, are designed to retain the maximum mass weight, in order to preserve as much of the momentum as possible, so that the expanded bullet goes as far into whatever critter you are killing as possible.

The only thing you shoot with a bullet that will 'fragment' are prarie dogs or other similar sized critters.



Link Posted: 7/17/2008 6:52:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DevL:
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/retardar.jpg


I kind of wonder what looking through ACOG after ACOG after ACOG......sideways would be like
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:04:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Whelen:


If you bullet doesn't fragment, you will just be punching 22 cal holes in your target. Fragmentation will do maximum damage. At what distance this occures will depend on your barrel length and bullet construction.


If your bullet fragments, then you may not penetrate your target, and a .224" hole is better than no hole.

I suspect you may be thinking of bullet expansion, which is a good thing, in some circumstances, but has no dependancy on barrel length. What expansion is dependant on is impact velocity, and bullet design. Some bullets are designed to expand at higher or lower velocities than others, and some not at all. All bullets (good ones), that are designed to expand on impact, are designed to retain the maximum mass weight, in order to preserve as much of the momentum as possible, so that the expanded bullet goes as far into whatever critter you are killing as possible.

The only thing you shoot with a bullet that will 'fragment' are prarie dogs or other similar sized critters.


Hmm, .22 diameter hole clean through the target, like stabbing it with a 1/4" wooden dowel???
Or a 3x6" temporary cavity filled with blood and destroyed tissue, not to mention the hydrostatic shock???

I'll take fragments for 100 Alex.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:14:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Whelen:


If you bullet doesn't fragment, you will just be punching 22 cal holes in your target. Fragmentation will do maximum damage. At what distance this occures will depend on your barrel length and bullet construction.


If your bullet fragments, then you may not penetrate your target, and a .224" hole is better than no hole.

I suspect you may be thinking of bullet expansion, which is a good thing, in some circumstances, but has no dependancy on barrel length. What expansion is dependant on is impact velocity, and bullet design. Some bullets are designed to expand at higher or lower velocities than others, and some not at all. All bullets (good ones), that are designed to expand on impact, are designed to retain the maximum mass weight, in order to preserve as much of the momentum as possible, so that the expanded bullet goes as far into whatever critter you are killing as possible.

The only thing you shoot with a bullet that will 'fragment' are prarie dogs or other similar sized critters.



Huh? Military ball is designed to and works best when it does fragment. Fragmentation happens as the bullet yaws and breaks apart in the target, creating a large wound cavity. Fragmentation happens AFTER penetration.

The dependency on barrel length is that a minimum velocity is required for fragmentation to reliably occur with ball ammo. The longer the barrel, the higher the muzzle velocity, so your effective fragmentation range is increased.

That said, since mere civilians are not restricted to ball ammo, we can pick a heavier weight hollowpoint and fuggedaboutit.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 7:48:05 PM EDT


Back on topic, whats the best AR barrel length...
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:23:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Whelen:


If you bullet doesn't fragment, you will just be punching 22 cal holes in your target. Fragmentation will do maximum damage. At what distance this occures will depend on your barrel length and bullet construction.


If your bullet fragments, then you may not penetrate your target, and a .224" hole is better than no hole.

I suspect you may be thinking of bullet expansion, which is a good thing, in some circumstances, but has no dependancy on barrel length. What expansion is dependant on is impact velocity, and bullet design. Some bullets are designed to expand at higher or lower velocities than others, and some not at all. All bullets (good ones), that are designed to expand on impact, are designed to retain the maximum mass weight, in order to preserve as much of the momentum as possible, so that the expanded bullet goes as far into whatever critter you are killing as possible.

The only thing you shoot with a bullet that will 'fragment' are prarie dogs or other similar sized critters.





You need to read the FAQs and ammo-oracle before posting on terminal ballistics topics.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:30:05 PM EDT
No AR can handle ALL applications, I don't think. I like to think "general purpose", short enough and light enough for mobility, long enough to reach out to 300 meters, "minute-of-man", as it were.....

For me, perfect is a 16 inch barrel. Red dot on top. Light up front. All I really need.
Link Posted: 7/17/2008 8:42:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By COLT:
In my opinion the answer is the 18inch AR-15 and Collapsible stock only 3.5inches longer than the m4 carbine. Better velocity and more mobility and rifle length sites.


You do realize that you can put a rifle length free float handguard onto any of the barrels you listed, and then throw a site on the top rail at the end, thus giving you your rifle length sites, right?
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 2:10:37 AM EDT
The perfect AR is the one you are proficient enough with to put a round where you intend it to go, any time, every time, even in the dark of night.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 8:59:08 AM EDT
KAC SR15 E3
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 9:53:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2008 9:55:06 AM EDT by fsk1290]

Originally Posted By WI57:
i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gi57/bolt/hijack.jpg

Back on topic, whats the best AR barrel length...


There ISN'T one.

eta: ah fuck...........wasted 8000 posts on that......... dang it

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 10:11:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fsk1290:

Originally Posted By WI57:
i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg76/gi57/bolt/hijack.jpg

Back on topic, whats the best AR barrel length...


There ISN'T one.

eta: ah fuck...........wasted 8000 posts on that......... dang it



Dang 8000th post, sorry...
Yeah, I know, but I feel like the OP's post got hijacked by the 22 cal hole guy.
Just trying to get it back on target...
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 4:10:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By nicholsmf:
The perfect AR is the one you are proficient enough with to put a round where you intend it to go, any time, every time, even in the dark of night.


True words right there.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 4:39:15 PM EDT
I agree that a silenced AR is not worth the trouble, an SBR is an extra expense that most of us can't justify, that 'long range' would likely be < 50yds, and that compact size and a good fast optic is preferred. That's why I have this one.



14.7"7½ lbs w/o the mag as it sits.

Link Posted: 7/18/2008 4:48:27 PM EDT
I will keep my heavy 20", thank you. Never did buy into the chop barrel fad or the collapsable buttstock.

If I need a short barrel, I will use my 5" P14 in .45 Super.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:14:55 PM EDT

Wow, that's nuts, lol.


Originally Posted By DevL:
I have used a 18" Mod 01 SPR for a while and felt it was way too long and nose heavy WITHOUT a silencer for use in close. I only have one pic of that rifle and it was a goofy pic you might have seen before. Even when set up as it was supposed to be it was just too long and nose heavy for a "do it all" rifle.

i21.photobucket.com/albums/b261/dev_l/retardar.jpg
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:30:18 PM EDT


Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:31:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By thedrizzle:
KAC SR15 E3




oh ya!
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 5:45:38 PM EDT
There's no such thing as a "perfect" AR or the "best" barrel length. Just the right tool for the right job. I think sometimes people get too caught up trying to copy military weapon systems and buying up all the cool guy gear to take a minute to think about what the intended mission is and what it will take to accomplish it successfully. For most people's (defensive) purposes a suppressed (or unsuppressed if you don't care about your hearing ) SBR is that right tool.
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:19:04 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
AK-47h...shorter than the M4. Best of both worlds if you're stuck with 5.56
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 6:46:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By GTwannabe:

Originally Posted By LoganSackett:
AK-47


Nah... I'd say a modern bullpup like the Tavor. Full 20" barrel and shorter than the M4. Best of both worlds if you're stuck with 5.56


How much does the Tavor weigh in at? Just curios. I've fired an FS2000 a couple of weeks ago and the trigger was like using a staple gun or something. Plus, it didn't really feel all that handy. Balance nice, yes. But bulky and sort of strange feeling to me. I suppose that changes with time.

I'll throw my 2 cents in. The perfect AR always seems to be the one I don't have.

For example. I do a lot of shooting with irons. And I like LW. So I gots me a LW 16" upper. Carbine. Man is it sweet. But to be completely honest with you, I think for shooting irons, the rifle set up is the way to go. I should've just built up an A1 rifle and been done with it. I think a dissy with a lw profile barrel would be great. And a middy gas system. And a stock that balances it out nicely but isn't too long. I think an A1 stock LOOKS better but a bit shorter is better. Maybe the sully stock is the way to go. Come to think of it, probably the grail is the grail.

But they're all pretty nice IMHO. And almost any configuration is pretty good for alot of things. As long as you stay away from the extremes. (such as a 7" pistol or a 24" heavy barreled rifle)
Link Posted: 7/18/2008 7:20:56 PM EDT
height=8
Originally Posted By JJREA:
How much does the Tavor weigh in at? Just curios. I've fired an FS2000 a couple of weeks ago and the trigger was like using a staple gun or something. Plus, it didn't really feel all that handy. Balance nice, yes. But bulky and sort of strange feeling to me. I suppose that changes with time.


The 18" model weighs 7.21lbs. Can't tell you about the trigger feel/pull... never handled one. I have heard that the FS2000 has a real heavy, creepy trigger. Don't know if that's an inherent bullpup flaw or a carryover from the FNC, which also had a lousy trigger.
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