I have two Surefire Scouts I bought years ago.  They both have the Malkoff 250 lumen upgrades. 

Any new LED heads out there with higher output that are reasonably priced?

Wasn't TNVC offering some mega lumen drop in?

I love my Malkoff but they really need to catch up in the lumen game. Anything under 500 isn't competitive these days. He should be hitting 900-1000 to be leading the market.

You can occasionally find used Surefire heads on the secondhand market, including the newer 500 and 600 lumen M600 Ultra heads.

Malkoff also has three newer 2 cell Scout offerings which include 350 lumen/10K lux, 750 lumen/12k lux, and 650 lumen/20k lux. The last two sacrifice run time for the higher output.

OP -- Malkoff recently released all new Scout heads.  They are much higher output and TIR type optics.  This is what you seek.

This

550 lumens (650 at turn on)

https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/surefire-drop-ins-for-e1-e2-and-scout-lights/products/e2-super-throw-scout-m600-2cr123-high-output-head

And

700 lumens (750 at turn on)

https://malkoff-devices.myshopify.com/collections/surefire-drop-ins-for-e1-e2-and-scout-lights/products/e2-super-scout-m600-2cr123-high-output-head


He needs to develop an IR/White light combo head like the Surefire Vampires. The green eyed master race would be very supportive.

Agreed, though I do get some good outputs (white and IR) from the newer 600v heads, I'd really like a next level option.

ETA: It seems like the lux is greater on the 550 lumen version and the throw description is stated as double on that version compared to the 700 lumen.  Why is that?  Backwards descriptions?

Thanks all.  I'll probably go for the Malkoff when they are available again.

Lumens and lux are not necessarily tied together. It comes down to the design of the LED and TIR lens or reflector. In this case the lesser lumen LED gives a more tightly focused beam which results in a higher lux reading, and more throw.

Yep, understood.  I'm wondering the degree of spill to easily get it to 600y.  I do not find heavy throw/low spill lights very useful.

Well it does not get to 600y. Its only 20K lux so about 140m, depending on your needs. The difference is size of the LED emitter. Larger LED can produce more light but is not easily focused so produces more spill and a larger hotspot generally speaking.

Doubling lux gives about a 40% increase in range, roughly.

For the level I feel light is useful:

9000 lux = 94m
10000 lux = 100m
12000 lux = 109m
20000 lux = 141m
24000 lux = 154m

You can see less in brighter urban lit areas looking into the shadows and further out in pitch black desert, but it is a reasonable figure for clearly seeing things in most environments and not just seeing a shadow like shape of something.

Has anyone here tried the 300M versions?

I have a 300 series Malkoff 1 cell on a lightweight build. It's better than my old school M600 200ish lumen M600 but crushed by M600 Ultra 500 lumen in distance, spill and size of hot spot as well as color and beam smoothnesd. I have the new 600 series superthrow Malkoff head and a 16650 in the mail from Malkoff. Will let you know what it's like when it gets here.

I will say Malkoff Eseries/Scout heads are more bluish and less smooth a beam than Surefire which tends toward either greenish to yellowish to mild purple tint in my experience with older 500 lumen Surefires tending to green tint. In practical use, Malkoff 300 lumen head and Surefire 300 lumen head are equivalent.

So the Malkoff super throw came in. It has the same beam profile as the  1 cell... tight hotspot that is round and white with a tinge of purple here and there. Square or diamond shaped secondary hotspot that is larger, round spill beam after that. Its about 10% tighter than the 1 cell light in every way and twice as bright. I pretty pleased with it overall. The 16650 from Malkoff was DOA and a 2016 Keeppower. The new Keeppower are able to take more charge and reach a higher voltage in new production 16650. I also got 2017 production cells from another source and they are charging right now. The internal cells are capable of reaching a 4.35 voltage but the protection circuit cuts off at 4.2 volts in the older cells. Newer ones are supposed to reach 4.3 volts before cutoff. I will let you know how the 2017 cells charge and how Malkoff handles sending me a dead battery.

The newer 2017 16650 2500 mah Keeppoeer do charge above 4.2 and can hold 10% more charge but I have decided to run the 16650 as 4.2V batteries in the lights since they are going to be stored in a trunk, which should lessen heat and high voltage storage degridation. Hopefully, it wont be much of an issue and I can buy the Keeppower 16650 2500 for $7 each. I expect to loose around 25% capacity permanently each year through use and trunk storage in summer, which I'm good with.

I must say though, the Malkoff super throw 20K lux does not shine any further than the M600 Ultra and has less spill. The Malkoff just has that squared off secondary hotspot that is great under 50 yards, but useless beyond. If you need to just store a light for long periods and not use it, the 123 primary batteries in a M600U are a better option. If you go through more than 2 sets of 2 123 cells in a light in a year, go for LiIon.

I talked to Gene about the Super Throw, and decided to stick with my 600 lumen Ultra Scout.

-Much lighter head
-Similar output
-2-300% longer run-time
-Better optic materials (CoC > Acrylic)
-I already have the Surefire, so "free".


If I'm going to endure 20 minute runtimes on a WML in 2017, it's going to be small and have over 1000 lumens real-world OTF output. Not a 10% improvement in output over a light with 2-3x the runtime.


All this said...look at the world we live in. I remember talking to Gene years ago when I wanted 300 OTF lumens from a single-die LED powered by 2 CR123's. He said it wasn't possible at the time. Thermal management, etc. Said 260-280 was as much as possible. Now look at us whining about 600 lumens from same "not being enough". I have friends that killed dirtbags in 3rd world pest-holes with Mag-Lights duct-taped to their rifles. Now we have a 4oz light pushing 600 lumens for nearly an hour...

Just a little trip down memory lane for you all...remember when this was THE shit with it's 225 lumen output and 20 minute runtime and light weight (for the output) and ergonomic functionality?
http://www.surefire.com/m962xm07weaponlightkit.html

I remember getting the special incan bulbs for my Surefire that doubled the output to a mind-blowing 120 lumens...

I do love the output on my M600 ultra 600 lumen lights. I don't think I would want or need anything more than 1000. But who knows...

I stopped messing with the lesser denominators of weapon lights. I was stubborn, and tried cutting corners.
All that did for me was waste a lot of time dicking around. I wanted Surefire, but HATED them due to the costs.
I'll be honest and up front. Surefire is PROUD of their shit. Because of that, the prices turned me off.

Resistance is futile. And those of you who don't use Surefire products, trust me in saying, I avoided them at all cause.
Fast forward to my first purchase of a SF M600 Ultra Scout. I was impressed.
Since my first taste of Surefire weapon lights, that was my hors d’oeuvres.
Now I recommend them.

Alright Surefire, you got me in the zone. Now step it up and make your products higher output, longer throw, with reasonable run-times.
Get back in the race!!

"Back in the race"...? Who else is putting out a 600 OTF lumen light with the kind regulated run-time SF is getting, coated circuit boards, IIIa anodizing, and CoC TIR's for $200 street price?

I purchased a malkoff E2ST. Comparing it to my 500 lumen x300u:

The malkoff is much more white

It is hotter in the middle

Has a little less spill

And has virtually the same throw.

I'm not real impressed.  Should have got an m600u

Yeah, the what is it, 20 minute runtime in regulation? Doesn't help the equation either.

Like I said, Surefire with their Ultra series back a few years ago jumped into the lead and has stayed there. That Malkoff head is also an ounce or so heavier, ain't it?

The Malkoff head (be it E2T, E2S, or E2ST) is an ounce or so less than the M600U, and smaller in both diameter and length. I have all of the Malkoff heads and prefer the M600U head, overall.

An unbiased opinion. You got my respect on the topic, and other topics I have not responded too.

I still have not found anything better than Surefire. Cheaper? Yes. Similar or more output? Of course.

But I have yet to find anything over-all "better" for my intended use (weapon mounted).

I see you're a Malkoff and Arisaka fan. That's cool, they are both great companies, and I've been buying Gene's stuff since he scratched the model numbers on the sides of the modules in his garage and his wife answered the phone during supper time when you called him to order another one. He makes a GREAT! product. It just doesn't do what the Surefire does, for ME, and it costs the same, roughly ($200/per).


*Referring to "Scout" lights, which is my application as discussed in this thread...


-Surefire is getting 600 lumens for a little over an hour. Malkoff/Arisaka is getting about 350 lumens for 1.5-2 hours. If you want 550-750 lumens from Malkoff, your run-time got cut to 20 minutes.
-Surefire uses CoC lenses. Malkoff/Arisaka use Acrylic.
-Surefire and Malkoff/Arisaka are both IIIA anodize.
-Surefire is using conformal coatings. Malkoff is using a ton of thermal epoxy. Both are "fully potted", but Malkoff's manages thermal properties better, while Surefire's is much lighter. The advantage with the Surefire is that it's lighter, and the advantage with the Malkoff is that you see about a 10% drop-off as they heat up, while with the Surefires, you see about a 25% drop-off in output as they heat up. This means that the 600 lumen Surefire is actually making about 450 OTF lumens for MOST of it's slightly over an hour runtime, while the Malkoff is making as Malkoff states, around 650-700 for it's 20 minutes.

This is ultimately a 200 lumen gain for Malkoff, at the cost of 350% less run-time, if you buy the 750 lumen Malkoff. If you buy the 350 lumen Malkoff, you're getting about 2 hours run-time at 315 lumens.

I personally prefer Surefire's Scout series tint to Malkoff's tint. It's a little warmer, and has much higher contrast, to MY eyes, when outdoors. The Malkoff LED's tend to wash and bleach the color out of everything at the 50+ yard mark, and reflect worse off of gun smoke.

The Surefire gives me an hour of runtime, and very nearly the same output as Malkoff's lights...at turn-on.  During a typical night-fighter course, someone will change the Surefire batteries 1-3 times. With the Malkoff, that's 3-9 times. This kindof highlights the logistics of using the Malkoff, organizationally at least, or maybe even personally.

There are pros/cons to each, but Malkoff/Arisaka is the only light I would put in Surefire's class, quality wise, and they offer very DIFFERENT things, as you can read above.

(Disclaimer: I'm Will, one of the owners of Arisaka)

We're talking about fractions of an ounce, but Malkoff's heads are actually lighter despite the use of thermal epoxy:

Malkoff E1T/E2T/E2S/E2ST: 1.2 oz
Surefire KM1-C (M300V): 1.4 oz
Surefire KE2-A (M600U): 1.6 oz
Surefire KE1-F (M300C): 1.6 oz

Lest you think I'm biased, even though we sell Malkoff heads, we also sell Surefire. I personally prefer the KM1-C for my single cell lights, and the KM2-B or KE2-A for my 2-cell scout lights, and make these recommendations to our customers all the time. I'm not a huge fan of the new E2S and E2ST because the run time is so short.


We originally used McClicky switches in the clicky version of our tailcap, but the QC on them is not great, and sometimes the spring rates were not consistent. This resulted in light NDs when you would close the bolt, or fire. Or even tap the butt of the rifle on the ground. We now carry the Surefire Z68 instead, in addition to offering our momentary tailcap which we build entirely in-house.

As for 18650 batteries: It can be done, but the wall thickness of the body gets very thin under the front threads for the head. Everywhere else you can increase the body thickness to compensate for the larger internal diameter, but you cannot alter the threads if you want to use a Scout head.

And yes, I'm aware of people boring out Scout bodies for 18650s, but from a structural point of view, it's not a good idea. A heavy impact to the head could snap the body off at the threads, especially if the internal diameter when bored out isn't concentric to the threads.

I am aware of who you are, Will, and thanks for the data! Arisaka is a company I trust to present accurate data, regardless of vested interest.

Lumens ain't the end-all, be-all of what matters. I am not disparaging any of the companies involved, just saying that everyone has a few white elephants. The Scout series isn't one of them, though.
Surefire didn't build their tail-cap for use with rechargeable higher output batteries. Rechargeables are not something the warfighter is going to use, and that's who these lights are made for, first and foremost.

If you want lumens, and cheap, Streamlight just came out with their 1000 lumen scout-clone, and it might be right up your alley. Be advised though, the tapeswitches unless redesigned, are not what I'd call G2G, and CS with Streamlight says they remain the #1 reason they get a call on the RM1 and RM2 series.

I don't get all the 20 minutes of run time BS. My E2ST runs for an hour on a fresh charge. That's a lot longer than 20 minutes. It's lighter and smaller, not larger and heavier than my M600U.

It's supposed to have more lumens, more lux, more range than M600U. I find it to have less spill, similar range, but saying it is larger, heavier, and less run time... those are all lies. I also have a Streamlight HLX incoming after seeing one in person. It actually has more range than the M600U and more spill too and more run time.

Yes, I also said the same thing regarding size/weight. The 20 minute run time is based on Gene's product specifications on the Malkoff site for CR123 batteries. With a 16650 it should get closer to an hour.

The HLX has a much wider diameter head, which makes it easier to design a reflector or TIR lens to take advantage of the LED output.

I was quoting Malkoff's site. If he has posted erroneous information about his product, then I digress.

I am very curious about the HLX. It is not up to the quality of the Surefire or Malkoff, but they are holding up good (Rail Mount series) on the 20 or so SWAT guns I have been monitoring over my buddy's shoulder (his department bought them, he heads their SWAT program).

Mainly, I want to know if they fixed the flicker issue the 2 cell light had. It's not terminal, but it annoys the shit out of me.

Fenix has an IR/White Light version of the TK. If someone would clone SF's tapeswitch cap for Fenix, I'd be all over it.