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Posted: 12/17/2003 5:41:03 AM EDT
www.buffertech.com/m4_rail_system.htm

Looks like competition for the Fobus, Armalite and KAC RIS/RAS systems. Looks to be non-floating. :-(

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:15:54 AM EDT
Interesting - if for nothing else, at least for the price...

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:42:52 AM EDT
But is it a free-float? Doesn't say.

Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:49:38 AM EDT
I just switched from a pair of M44's to a SIR #50 slimline not only because of the cool factor but for the rigity when a forward grip is mounted .  What I feared would be the case with mounting an under forearm rail and a  vertical grip to standard handguards occurred with the M44's attached there is some horizontal 'wag' with the unit when a vertical foregrip is installed on the M44's. Maybe I am just too particular but if there is going to be some side to side movement I wont have long term confidence in it , I pictured it spinning on me ...All this leaves me with the opinion that in order to avoid the 'wag' a free float system must be used with a foregrip, how tight can a delta ring be ??? The handguard cap its just the point that the M44's were place up against . I am unsure how many other shooters feel that way but the lesson cost me $100.00 bucks ! plus the SIR system ... breaking down is hard to do . I hope no future SIR / RAS buyers spend $200 bucks on their lesson .  
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:11:01 AM EDT
HAMMERDROP:

I agree with you. I have a buddy who installed an AAC rail and vertical grip on his M4 handguards. The guards were a bit loose before adding the extra gear; they're just *awful* now. In an impact situation, I can see the vertical grip acting just like a lever, and popping that lower handguard right off. HOWEVER, I have an AAC rail and vertical grip on a mid-length HG, with no such issues. Fit on those particular HGs is *very* tight. On my M4, I went with a railed float tube (Yankee Hill/DPMS) and have been very pleased. Cost me all of $139 (as opposed to the $400 SIR, which is bulky, heavy, and has more capability than I'll ever need).
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 8:15:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 1:41:36 PM EDT
Okay Shooter make me feel like a fool - thats my old ladys' job . I wanted the Sir for a long time just not the #45 and when the #50 came out I knew it was for me regardless and so what its my money - same thing I told my old lady but she still thinks I am a fool - hope that clears it up between us ! But eau contraire' the SIR #50 slimline bi-level is actually lighter than the M44's which does explain the price tag !And really not much more bulky than the dubble heat shield M4 handguards > it is freak-ily light !  
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:31:33 PM EDT
One thing the slim line bi-level SIR'S are not is bulky. They are about 1/4" narrower than M4 hand guards. They are cool looking, but more importantly they run cooler than anything else out there.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 4:53:24 PM EDT
The M44s are about 8.0 oz. How can the SIR be lighter than that??

I do understand your point with the freefloating system, although my M44 has no movement. I'll bet this surefire is probably bolted on tight, like a RAS.

I'm still saving for a Daniel Defense.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:10:13 PM EDT
Pretty nice for $199.
   FREE
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:42:05 PM EDT
Got this reply from an email I sent to them:

Shon,

The rail system is tightened down causing the top to lock into the barrel nut and the bottom into the front.  The top and bottom interlock and result in a rock solid/no movement attachment.  The DEA evaluated everything on the market and determined this unit to be the best.

Larry



Link Posted: 12/17/2003 6:51:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ASNixon:
The DEA evaluated everything on the market and determined this unit to be the best.
View Quote


Well theres one to go to town with....
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:04:30 PM EDT
A $200 dollar set of non freefloated handguards. No thanks!

They do look cool though. The rail has the non mil-spec "Predator" look from what it seems. Not that I really care.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:06:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 7:29:53 PM EDT by knightone]
I believe it also locks into the front handguard cap, I think this was said in thier Guns and Ammo mag.  Can anyone confirm that?  If it does lock into the front cap, can it still freefloat?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:15:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By knightone:
I beleive it also locks into the front handguard cap, I think this was said in thier Guns and Ammo mag.  Can anyone confirm that?  If it does lock into the front cap, can it still freefloat?
View Quote


Locking in to the front handguard cap = non free float.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:21:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By G-CODE:
A $200 dollar set of non freefloated handguards. No thanks!

They do look cool though. The rail has the non mil-spec "Predator" look from what it seems. Not that I really care.
View Quote


Well, what's an RAS going for these days?  $320 or so?

$199 MSRP (probably closer to $150, though we need to consider SF's new anti-internet policy...) is certainly a more reasonable price than what the RAS is going for.

Without having touched one of these, I'll say that $150-200 is the price range that the RAS should be selling for.  If standard M4 handguards are $35, I can understand how a set of aluminum railed non-FF handguards would sell for $150-200.  Heck, I might not have purchased my $350 RASII had there been an alternative like this.

So, presuming that these are non-FF, I'd say they are an excellent option for your average, everyday working rifle.  Four solid rails, solid aluminum construction, etc.  If you don't need FF handguards, then these would be great for mounting a vertical foregrip and light.

That being said, unless these are proven superior to the RAS, I'd buy the RAS for $200 over these for $150.  SureFire at $200 versus the RAS at $300 and it's SF all the way.  (Again, all of this is presuming non-FF and performance approximately on par with the RAS.)

Who knows, maybe I'll try to get my hands on one and see how it works.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:27:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By G-CODE:
Originally Posted By knightone:
I beleive it also locks into the front handguard cap, I think this was said in thier Guns and Ammo mag.  Can anyone confirm that?  If it does lock into the front cap, can it still freefloat?
View Quote


Locking in to the front handguard cap = non free float.
View Quote


That's what i thought too.  Well, I could swear that the G&A magazine said that the thing was locked into the handguard cap and yet still free floats.  I remember cause I thought that didn't sound right.  Maybe they found a way to do it.  I'll have to get my hands on one of those mags so I can take another look.  Does anyone who has the Surefire/G&A magazine take a look and confirm that it says that?  Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:32:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey:
Originally Posted By G-CODE:
A $200 dollar set of non freefloated handguards. No thanks!

They do look cool though. The rail has the non mil-spec "Predator" look from what it seems. Not that I really care.
View Quote


If standard M4 handguards are $35, I can understand how a set of aluminum railed non-FF handguards would sell for $150-200.  Heck, I might not have purchased my $350 RASII had there been an alternative like this.
View Quote

FIRSH? BMAS?
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 7:43:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By -Absolut-:
Originally Posted By Corey:
Originally Posted By G-CODE:
A $200 dollar set of non freefloated handguards. No thanks!

They do look cool though. The rail has the non mil-spec "Predator" look from what it seems. Not that I really care.
View Quote


If standard M4 handguards are $35, I can understand how a set of aluminum railed non-FF handguards would sell for $150-200.  Heck, I might not have purchased my $350 RASII had there been an alternative like this.
View Quote

FIRSH? BMAS?
View Quote


I'm not looking to remove my front sight assembly.  And I also want access to the barrel for maintenance.

Thus far, those are the negatives of the systems you cite (with the installation being the big one).
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:35:51 PM EDT
Ridge, "Bulky" is getting the hands around something, and has nothing to do with wt.
The M4 mandguards are about1/4" wider than the SIR hand guard. All plastic is naturaly going to be lighter, but hell they don't allow what any rail system does.
Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/17/2003 9:49:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/17/2003 9:51:11 PM EDT by dMac]
From G&A Combat Tactics 2004...

"There are three models, a shotgun forend for the Remington and Mossberg pumps, one for the MP5 and the newest and slickest model for the M4 carbine.  
The shotgun and MP5 models are like the factory original forends; simply replace the factory forend with the SureFire Picatinny forend and you're good to go.  Not so the ingeniously designed forend for the M4.  Already adopted by a major federal law  enforcement agency, the new M4 forend is a two-piece design that locks together around the barrel and secures itself with axial pressure from two beefy screws that bear on the front barrel ring.  As clever as it is functional, the M4 picatinny forend is completely free-floating and yet is rock-solid."


It slices...it dices...it even mops your floor!


Pressure at two axial points...Free Floating?  I was never good at physics but, did I miss something?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 3:59:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 4:38:08 AM EDT
Grant, do you have any in stock? I'm wanting to pick up one to replace another handguard I have...

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:11:08 AM EDT
I believe there is a new Sheriff in town...

C4
[url]www.gandrtactical.com[/url]
View Quote


Don't forget about the new Armalite quad rail.  Similar price, machined from aluminum and milspec rails.  
Scott
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:57:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 6:57:33 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
But eau contraire' the SIR #50 slimline bi-level is actually lighter than the M44's which does explain the price tag
View Quote


The SIR isn't lighter than the M44 - though it may feel like it to some people since the SIR distributes its weight both behind and in front of the barrel nut via the top rail.

It is more than twice as heavy compared to the M44; but the balance probably feels better since all of the weight isn't hanging out in front of the barrel but.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:12:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
Ridge, "Bulky" is getting the hands around something, and has nothing to do with wt.
The M4 mandguards are about1/4" wider than the SIR hand guard. All plastic is naturaly going to be lighter, but hell they don't allow what any rail system does.
Good shootin, Jack
View Quote


I wasn't refering to your post Jack. Yours was spot on. I was refering to HAMMERDROP's statement that Bartholomew_Roberts just mentioned above (Sorry, should have used quotes).

These things are sounding more and more interesting. Is there a weight published for them anywhere?

Link Posted: 12/18/2003 7:49:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By watertower:
I believe there is a new Sheriff in town...

C4
[url]www.gandrtactical.com[/url]
View Quote


Don't forget about the new Armalite quad rail.  Similar price, machined from aluminum and milspec rails.  
Scott
View Quote


The Armalite quadrail looks like another great product, but it's only available in midlength and 20" versions.  Armalite confirmed this to me via email.  It's too bad they don't make a carbine length version.  If they did, I'd have had one a month ago.

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

The SF M73 is not a FF system. The rails are mil-spec and is very well made. $200 is retail and I will sell them below the price for sure. Compare it to a RAS that sells for around $300. I believe there is a new Sheriff in town...

C4
View Quote


Grant:

Do you know if these will accept KAC panels?

I'm very interested in this system.  I'm with you (see my above post) on the RAS being priced out of the non-FF market.  I'm glad that SureFire and Armalite are pricing their rails competitively as it is really creating a new (and more appropriately priced) catagory of rails.

Please let us know when you'll have them available and the price.

Thanks,

Corey
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:15:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:14:59 AM EDT
mine shipped today I will post pics and a review when I get back in town on the 28th.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 10:27:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 10:27:35 AM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 11:48:22 AM EDT
Any idea how much this unit weighs?
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 12:33:07 PM EDT
I just got off the phone w/ Atlantic Research and I was informed that a #50 bi-level SIR weighs 18.4 ounces considerably more than what the M44 is stated to weigh and I had no idea what the exact weight is of either , I would agree that the weight itself of the SIR distributes more evenly than M44's but as I compare the known weight of the SIR versus the M44's the 10 ounces is not that much weight not a pittance but the SIR is a little over double the weight of the M44's and considering the total plastic versus aluminum issue and not to make excuses for the exaggeration factor but it just feels lighter to me and its not indicated if the weight of the M44's is without the 4 rubber rail covers which will effect the obvious bottom line weight , I am sure it is . I amde that conclusion in error just guessing by the overall gross weight of my carbine it felt lighter considerably after installing the SIR . And considering the bulk factor of the two forends the SIR is more economical considering the horizontal wag I do not have to contend with and the confidence the rigidity  instills and the capabilities it allows the confidence is priceless. Despite the 10oz !      
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 1:29:52 PM EDT
SSuuuuuree whatever makes you feel better Hammer. [;)].

Only joking, the SIR is obviously a MUCH better system, the ONLY thing the M44 has in it's favor is less wieght and cost.

From First/Samco= M44S is 6.5 oz w/o covers, 9.1 oz with covers on.
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 6:59:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 9:46:09 AM EDT by Corey]
Yeah, I was kind'a wondering why we were talking about the First Samco M44 rail along with the SIR, RAS and the new SureFire rail.

As I see it, there are a number of tiers of rail systems:

1.  URX FF rails and LMT FF upper ($????).

2.  Daniels Defense, RASII, FF RAS and SIR FF aluminum rails($350-400).

3.  RAS non-FF aluminum ($300-320).

4.  SureFire and Armalite non-FF aluminum ($150-200).

5.  FIRSH, BMAS, etc., aluminum FF ($100-200).

6.  M33 and M44, plastic non-FF ($60-$100).

7.  Add-on rails ($20-30).

Each of these tiers is targeted to a specific type of user, but let's not even pretend that the M44 was designed to compete with the SIR.  Heck, the M44 isn't even competitive with the SureFire and Armalite rails.  The more durable and stable SIR will certainly weigh more.

BTW, I'm simply listing the above "tiers" on price point.  So I don't want to get into an argument about whether the FIRSH is better than the RAS.  I don't know and I don't particularly care as the FIRSH doesn't meet my needs (requires removal of the front sight assembly to install).  Okay?  [:)]

That being said, I think the most "viable" options are the add-on rails for entry level users, the SureFire/Armalite rails in the non-FF segement, and finally the RASII/FF-RAS/SIR for those wanting a FF system.  And I'm sure the URX and LMT sytems trump the latter.

For the average Joe (like myself) who needs to equipe a number of rife (so $ is a concern) with a rugged rail system, the SureFire and Armalite rails seem a perfect fit.  Unfortunatly the RAS is priced out of this market.

So there, that's my rant on this subject.

[:D]

EDITED to add Daniels Defense to #2.  Doh!
Link Posted: 12/18/2003 9:28:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2003 9:30:38 PM EDT by EWB101]
http://www.pk-engineering.com/Shelby/Shelby.html


Link Posted: 12/19/2003 2:54:05 AM EDT
Why solid rails on two sides, and split rails on the other two?

Link Posted: 12/19/2003 5:47:04 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2003 5:47:55 AM EDT by SULACO2]
Originally Posted By Corey:
Yeah, I was kind'a wondering why we were talking about the First Samco M44 rail along with the SIR, RAS and the new SureFire rail.

As I see it, there are a number of tiers of rail systems:

1.  URX FF rails and LMT FF upper ($????).

2.  RASII, FF RAS and SIR FF aluminum rails($350-400).

3.  RAS non-FF aluminum ($300-320).

4.  SureFire and Armalite non-FF aluminum ($150-200).

5.  FIRSH, BMAS, etc., aluminum FF ($100-200).

6.  M33 and M44, plastic non-FF ($60-$100).

7.  Add-on rails ($20-30).

Each of these tiers is targeted to a specific type of user, but let's not even pretend that the M44 was designed to compete with the SIR.  Heck, the M44 isn't even competitive with the SureFire and Armalite rails.  The more durable and stable SIR will certainly weigh more.

BTW, I'm simply listing the above "tiers" on price point.  So I don't want to get into an argument about whether the FIRSH is better than the RAS.  I don't know and I don't particularly care as the FIRSH doesn't meet my needs (requires removal of the front sight assembly to install).  Okay?  [:)]

That being said, I think the most "viable" options are the add-on rails for entry level users, the SureFire/Armalite rails in the non-FF segement, and finally the RASII/FF-RAS/SIR for those wanting a FF system.  And I'm sure the URX and LMT sytems trump the latter.

For the average Joe (like myself) who needs to equipe a number of rife (so $ is a concern) with a rugged rail system, the SureFire and Armalite rails seem a perfect fit.  Unfortunatly the RAS is priced out of this market.

So there, that's my rant on this subject.

[:D]
View Quote


Daniel Defense?

/S2
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 7:32:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Corey:
Yeah, I was kind'a wondering why we were talking about the First Samco M44 rail along with the SIR, RAS and the new SureFire rail.

View Quote


We were only making sure Hammerdrop knew that his SIR was not lighter than the M44 he replaced.  That's all, nothing further implied, carry on with the conversation. [:P] [:D].


Daniel Defense. Definately #2.
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 9:47:17 AM EDT
Daniels Defense was added to #2 in my post above.

Thanks for pointing out my omission.

Corey
Link Posted: 12/19/2003 10:01:50 AM EDT
hhaaaAMMER
Stands corrected ! And will present nothing but the facts next time !! In his excitement over finally having in his hands a SIR #50 that he owned he may have entered the topic to add some learned input but ended up twisting it into something it wasn't in order  communicate with people, his brothers who ,who UNDERSTAND !!
 I did drag out the M44's I didn't dismantle the SIR installed upper but I could tell the weight is noticable but would distribute differently and deceive me !  Happy Holidays
Link Posted: 12/22/2003 8:35:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2003 8:36:19 PM EDT by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 3:01:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
I just got them in stock! [bounce]
They appear to be very well made and worth every bit of their price. The rail guards are lacking, but that is about it...

C4
View Quote


Grant:

Can you check and see if the KAC rail panels fit?

Also, do they have a solid feel when installed?  I'm wondering if their attachment method takes out all the play in the system, or if a vertical grip will be able to rotate the handguards slightly.

Oh, and pics would rock!  [:D]

Corey
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:06:24 AM EDT
From their literature, it seems as if it would be a solid mount.  However, according to their literature, it also free floats.  I want to hear how well it handles taking optics, holding zero, and if it will retain zero when optics are remounted.  Of course I'm still iffy about placing optics on an RAS.  Anything that doesn't free float, I don't trust placing optics on.
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 1:23:55 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Shooter521:
Why solid rails on two sides, and split rails on the other two?
View Quote


Perhaps so that KAC-type vertical foregrips will have a more solid mount on the bottom rail.
As for the side rails, I don't know.  Weight reduction, maybe?

Does anyone know if you have to remove the front sight base to install one of these?
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 8:01:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2003 9:48:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/23/2003 9:48:41 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
I can see from those pics that the first thing most people are going to do upon receipt of their M73 is rip the aluminum heat shields out.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 3:48:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 4:24:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 5:14:36 AM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:08:19 PM EDT
The M73 looks pretty nice!  I am still wondering about "freefloat" claim.  I like to know how it's considered freefloated with the way it mounts using the handguard cap.

I'd also like to see more detailed pics of the front and back connectors.
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:15:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2003 12:18:27 PM EDT by TheRicker]
Link Posted: 12/24/2003 12:19:26 PM EDT
In their magazinalog that was on the shelves a little while ago.

I wondered from looking at the pics.
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