I have this A2 Colt 20" Govt.  It was my first AR.



It's actually a very nice rifle.  However, for the past 3 years I've had this incling to make it a carbine.  I was thinking Just take the barrel off, get some kind of a carbine barrel and wallah.  

The reason I'm asking in here is I'd like to do some kind of Retro Carbine of the Black Hawk Down era, but I forget what configs there were.  I realize I could do a 727, but I'm not sure if you can get an M4gery barrel without feed ramps, and I don't want to dremel some in.  And I don't remember what other carbine type barrels were put on A2 uppers.  I think a 16" light weight barrel would be appropriate.  

Or I could get an A1 upper and do some kind of different retro.  I have an A1 stock coming.  But I don't really want to do a 20".  Or do I?  I'm thinking I want some kind of Special Forces type of carbine pre M4/M4A1.

But then there is a question of, is this model in it's configuration worth good money?  It does has some rounds through it, but not a ton.  Maybe 5K?  Maybe.  I should keep a log for my guns and I don't, but I should.  

What do you guys think?

I know I've asked this before, but never in the retro forum.  If you guys have any pics of pre M4 carbines with A2 handles, I would love to see them.  I saw like 2 or so in one of the tacked threads.

I'm fond of this one.

Quoted: I'm fond of this one. www.fototime.com/5C43439AD3B555F/standard.jpg

I am too!!!!!!!!!!!  But I don't think I want to SBR.  I shoulda put that in my original post.  I suppose I could look into that option though!!!  I think some of the guys at the range have some kind of company set up or something.

Is that a clone of something you've seen in military use or just a nice SBR you got?

Quoted: Is that a clone of something you've seen in military use or just a nice SBR you got?

Both.  But it was a unit modification, not an issued barrel length.

I can't tell from the photo if it has a bayo lug & flash suppressor.  If it does, what about just keeping it as is?  IIRC, M16A2s were far more prolific in Mogadishu than carbines.  Then just build a retro carbine on a Nodak Spud lower.

You could always simply get another complete upper.  That way you can switch back and forth from rifle to carbine in a matter of seconds.  That would also allow you to quickly and easily return to original factory configuration should you so choose.

I'm a pretty big fan of the 651/652.  That would be an A1 upper with a LW carbine barrel and a fixed buttstock.



(photo borrowed from Capn. Richardson/RBR.com)

Quoted: I can't tell from the photo if it has a bayo lug & flash suppressor.  If it does, what about just keeping it as is?  IIRC, M16A2s were far more prolific in Mogadishu than carbines.  Then just build a retro carbine on a Nodak Spud lower.

No bayo lug, but it has a flash suppressor.  I know there were alot of A2's in Mogadishu, but I'm not just talking there.  I'm talking pre M4 carbine with an A2 sight.  It seems like there all kinds of weird configs and would like to do something like that.  Although, I've never really disliked my A2, but it does feel a bit long sometimes.

Quoted: You could always simply get another complete upper.  That way you can switch back and forth from rifle to carbine in a matter of seconds.  That would also allow you to quickly and easily return to original factory configuration should you so choose. I'm a pretty big fan of the 651/652.  That would be an A1 upper with a LW carbine barrel and a fixed buttstock. i18.photobucket.com/albums/b114/mentalstampede/Guns/651-sm-725x226.jpg (photo borrowed from Capn. Richardson/RBR.com)

Yeah, this might be kind of neat.  Wonder how much that thing weighs.

I'll try to remember to put mine on a scale in the next day or so.  I've got one done with a bushmaster 16" superlight.

I'm pretty sure Colt made one with the A2 carry handle also, eh?  I wonder if that was ever used by the military. 16" lw that is.

The military has never fielded a 16" ar15  variant as far as I know.  All of the Army or Air force carbines were 14.5" or even shorter.

I believe the M4 profile barrel was in use before they went to A2 sights.  I'm kind of hazy on  M4 history, so I could be wrong.

Quoted: The military has never fielded a 16" ar15  variant as far as I know.  All of the Army or Air force carbines were 14.5" or even shorter. I believe the M4 profile barrel was in use before they went to A2 sights.  I'm kind of hazy on  M4 history, so I could be wrong.

Well I think some of them got mounted on A1 uppers but I don't think it was because there were no A2 uppers.  I think it was because the A2 20"ers's were newer and weren't parted out yet.  At least, that's my guess.

Only pic that I have of the 614 with an early fixed carry handle Colt M4 upper(middle carbine.)
Pat
0-1-25

A 614???  I don't think I've ever heard of it.

614 is the commercial/law enforcement version of the M16A1.
The pictured rifle has been refit with an early M4 upper and later M4 stock.
Pat
0-1-25

Is this a true 6550 Gov't Model?

Quoted: The military has never fielded a 16" ar15  variant as far as I know.  All of the Army or Air force carbines were 14.5" or even shorter. I believe the M4 profile barrel was in use before they went to A2 sights.  I'm kind of hazy on  M4 history, so I could be wrong.

Yes there was one. It was the later 723. Had an M4 profile barrel attached to a C7 upper. Came out the year before the 727 (M4 barrel w/ A2 upper)

ETA: If you wanted an M4 barrel and an A1 upper, you could always make an IDF carbine clone

Quoted: Quoted: I'm fond of this one. www.fototime.com/5C43439AD3B555F/standard.jpg Hey UXB, what length barrel is that?

10.2", gas port 0.093".

sweet, is it Govt under the handgaurds or an HBAR?  What mfgr?  Sorry for all the questions.

Started life as the chrome-lined post-ban version of the bottom barrel.  Had it chopped down and gas port opened up by ADCO.

Since it was post-ban I didn't have to worry about getting rid of the bayonet lug.

I think I'm going to do it.  Problem is I started a Shotgun project, I got a 10/22 profect to do for my kids and then this.  But I'm still not decided on a what type of barrel to use.  Plus, I've never done a barrel swap and would like to learn how to do it.  I probably go to the build it yourself forum and get all the tips.

And BTW, I mounted an A1 buttstock I got from RRA for this build.  I'm thinking the build would be a SF type carbine that would've been possibly used during Desert Storm I and Mogadishu era.  And get some other gear that would be appropriate.  I got an M9 with some MILES gear, I think I could put together a mock up of that era.  This could be fun and interesting.  It may not be totally accepted but it's what I want to do.  It kind of reminds me of a time when I was in my prime.  I graduated High School in 1990.  One of my football buddies joined the Army and I think he ended up in Desert Storm and I never heard from him again.  I wasn't exactly close.  But anytime he saw me he was trying to get me to join with him but my head was on playing in my Garage Band and Girls.  I didn't want to join then.  But I always wondered what happened to him.

Sorry about the long post.

I found a pic to fuel my inspiration.  I think it's more recent than that era, but at least the config is what I want.  I'm sure you guys have seen it before because I have too, but I'll post it again anyways.



Sorry it wasn't smaller!!!

Quoted: I'm a pretty big fan of the 651/652.  That would be an A1 upper with a LW carbine barrel and a fixed buttstock. (photo borrowed from Capn. Richardson/RBR.com)

JJ: If you don't build a clone of this rifle, I'm gonna.  AnnieO will kill me if I do, so save me!

Quoted: Quoted: I'm a pretty big fan of the 651/652.  That would be an A1 upper with a LW carbine barrel and a fixed buttstock. i18.photobucket.com/albums/b114/mentalstampede/Guns/651-sm-725x226.jpg (photo borrowed from Capn. Richardson/RBR.com) JJ: If you don't build a clone of this rifle, I'm gonna.  AnnieO will kill me if I do, so save me!

Well, I'd really like to use the current upper because the color match and like I said, I want the look of the interim type carbines.  Post A1 uppers / Pre true M4.  Plus I'm not sure I want to go that lightweight on the barrel.  Seems like it'd be rear heavy with the rifle stock.  I don't know.  And on top of that, I'd have to have a lw 16" cut down and perm attached at 14.7", whereas I can get a bushy barrel or something all ready to go.  

You got a barrel like that laying around?  Like either one?

FWIW, I can hear a bunch of shooting at the range right now.  I wonder who's there?

Also, I'm  still trying to finish my mossy 500 build, you got any short barrels for that laying around???

Man they are really going at it, sounds like popcorn.  Maybe military?


BTW, there's no saving you.  And if she kills you, maybe I could steal her.  Don't tell my wife I said that though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quoted: Well, I'd really like to use the current upper because the color match

Dammit, It's a tool.  Paint it with Krylon if you want the upper and lower to match.

... and like I said, I want the look of the interim type carbines.  Post A1 uppers / Pre true M4

Say... something like this?

Plus I'm not sure I want to go that lightweight on the barrel.  Seems like it'd be rear heavy with the rifle stock.

Rifle above belongs to Glenn_R.  It handles beautifully with the Sully stock (even  heavier than an A1), and I was making hits at 300 with it (with a Santose zero - note the elevation drum position).  About the only thing you might not be able to do with the LW barrel is sustained FA.

I don't know.  And on top of that, I'd have to have a lw 16" cut down and perm attached at 14.7", whereas I can get a bushy barrel or something all ready to go.

I know this is probaly going to go over like a lead balloon, but I like "retroish" carbines.  There's nothing to say it has to be a perfect clone of an as-issued rifle. Personal preference.

You got a barrel like that laying around?  Like either one?

I have a 14.5" M4 profile + perm Phantom on my goto gun right now.  I'm thinking about making the change an A1 upper/LW 16", which would put it in the retroish 651/652 type clone category.  Glenn's rifle above is almost perfect to me.  Change out the A2 for an A1 and put on CAR hanguards, and I'd be trying to steal it.

I'd love to go shorter than 16", but you know what that entails on the SBR side.  The 14.5/permanent FH is nice, but the fact that you are limited to clamp-on FSBs if you want to change out sucks.  An SBR is still a possibility, but then I'd want to go 11.5", so we'd be looking at a retroish 607 clone.

Also, I'm  still trying to finish my mossy 500 build, you got any short barrels for that laying around???

<==Remmy 870 guy, sorry.

FWIW, I can hear a bunch of shooting at the range right now.  I wonder who's there?...Man they are really going at it, sounds like popcorn.  Maybe military?

7AM on a Friday?  It's most likey MPD SWAT.  Actually, I'm positive.

BTW, there's no saving you.  And if she kills you, maybe I could steal her.  Don't tell my wife I said that though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL.  I'll be sure to tell her, but realize that you'll be in a long line of suitors.  I am a lucky guy.

You are tempting me pretty well.  I know that a permenantly attached muzzle device is kind of a bummer.  But I only figure it's a bummer if you're going to get a can.  Not sure how a can would be on a lw barrel.  But you are making some good points.  I was also thinking of doing a 16" M4 barrel because I could change Muzzle Device if I ever wanted to.  I don't know.  Options, options.  I agree with you that it doesn't have to be exact.  I'm not going to get an SBR for a 14.5 so, it wouldn't be exact anyways.

Yeah, I think I can hear FA, sounds like MP5's or something.  Or maybe M4's?

Yes, you married up.  But so did I, so I know what it's like.  God was looking out for us.

Quoted: I know this is probaly going to go over like a lead balloon, but I like "retroish" carbines.  There's nothing to say it has to be a perfect clone of an as-issued rifle. Personal preference.

+1 on that.  Your rifle has to please only you.  The idea of "advanced or updated" retro is a wonderful balance of practicality with retro looks.  Besides, if you want to get technical, practically no one has a perfect clone because they are using semi-auto only lowers.  I know I can't afford a RR.