Is there a differance in quality from a AR manufacture when sub- contracted?

In Mini-Vans they have the same parent company but differance in quality, for example:

Top: Chrysler Town and Country
Mid:  Dodge Caravan
Low: Plymouth Voyager

 Is that the same idea in the AR market? CMT stand out the most... They make rifles for Stag, Rock River, and Smith and Wessen. Could a Stag be any better than a S&W or vise versa? or are they pretty much the same with differant logo?

Hope this made any sense....

 Bri

Quoted: In Mini-Vans they have the same parent company but differance in quality, for example: Top: Chrysler Town and Country Mid:  Dodge Caravan Low: Plymouth Voyager

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about.  They all three two go right down the same asembly line, made by the same exact workers, with the same exact jigs and tools, through the same paint booth, with parts made to the same exact specs and dimensions, by mostly the same suppliers.

The only things that change are cosemtic items.

Let me guess.  You haven't worked a day in the auto industry, right?

ETA: I remembered that Plymouth has not existed as a brand for at least five years.

Quoted: Quoted: In Mini-Vans they have the same parent company but differance in quality, for example: Top: Chrysler Town and Country Mid:  Dodge Caravan Low: Plymouth Voyager You don't have a clue about what you are talking about.  They all three go right down the same asembly line, made by the same exact workers, with the same exact jigs and tools, through the same paint booth, with parts made to the same exact specs and dimensions, by mostly the same suppliers. The only things that change are cosemtic items. Let me guess.  You haven't worked a day in the auto industry, right?

I love the hospitality around here.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: In Mini-Vans they have the same parent company but differance in quality, for example: Top: Chrysler Town and Country Mid:  Dodge Caravan Low: Plymouth Voyager You don't have a clue about what you are talking about.  They all three go right down the same asembly line, made by the same exact workers, with the same exact jigs and tools, through the same paint booth, with parts made to the same exact specs and dimensions, by mostly the same suppliers. The only things that change are cosemtic items. Let me guess.  You haven't worked a day in the auto industry, right? I love the hospitality around here.

Especially when people with a low post count (new guy) come in to get some basic info.....

I have only "heard" that there are differences in some manufacturers parts, some are magnetic particle tested, some are not.

The great thing about the tech forums is that someone will be along with the details.

Welcome to the board!

The fact is that, unwelcoming as SWO_daddy's post was, he was correct.  The percieved "quality difference" between the three vans mentioned is just that-percieved.  They really are built by exactly the same people with exactly the same tools.

As for AR quality differences, there's a bit more play there.  Many "manufacturers" use the same foundries for their forgings, and many of them don't even do their own finish machining, so you'll find very little difference in quality between a lot of brand names.

On the other hand, there are some that stand out.  RRA, for example, does its own finish machining-which leads to the infamous "DAMN this receiver is too tight!" response.

Read a LOT here, and filter out the fairly large number of people who chime in with their opinions (me included) to pull out the FACTS.  If you get AR parts from one of the "known brands" like Colt, Bushmaster, Armalite, Rock River, DPMS... you're going to get good to great quality.  If you buy parts from "Bob's Storm Door and Black Rifle Company," you're shooting craps with loaded dice.

Quoted: You don't have a clue about what you are talking about.  They all three go right down the same assembly line, made by the same exact workers, with the same exact jigs and tools, through the same paint booth, with parts made to the same exact specs and dimensions, by mostly the same suppliers. The only things that change are cosmetic items. Let me guess.  You haven't worked a day in the auto industry, right?

I agree with SWO-daddy.  Its one thing for a new guy to ask questions.  It's quite  another for anyone to make a wildly inaccurate (or in this case dead wrong) statement as if he actually knew of what he spoke.  We have too much speculation and guessing in the guise of 'fact'.  There isn't anything wrong with guessing or speculating about something.  However, I for one would like guesses to be identified as such.  But I also know that that ain't ever gonna happen.

Quoted: "As pointed out, RRA has tight lower receiver specs, which by the way is not perceived as a problem by most folks..."

Absolutely correct.  Break-in is quick and then a nice, tight fit receiver-to-top end forever.

A machine shop will machine parts for several AR manufacturers to the manufacturer's specs.  There is a very real difference in what is coming out of the machine shop.  It all depends on what specs are provided by the manufacturer and how much the manufacturer is willing to spend.  An example would be RRA's lowers.  CMT machined RRA's lowers with the infamous "too tight" rear lug recess at RRA's request.  It wasn't a cost saving measure, but it was a unique request on RRA's part.  The bottom line is that it's all about cost and the accuracy of the specs given to the machine shop.  Don't assume a part is quality just because it came out of a reputable shop.  The manufacturer may have set a cap on the cost and is willing to accept shortcuts to stay within budget.  

Quoted: A machine shop will machine parts for several AR manufacturers to the manufacturer's specs.  There is a very real difference in what is coming out of the machine shop.  It all depends on what specs are provided by the manufacturer and how much the manufacturer is willing to spend.  An example would be RRA's lowers.  CMT machined RRA's lowers with the infamous "too tight" rear lug recess at RRA's request.  It wasn't a cost saving measure, but it was a unique request on RRA's part.  The bottom line is that it's all about cost and the accuracy of the specs given to the machine shop.  Don't assume a part is quality just because it came out of a reputable shop.  The manufacturer may have set a cap on the cost and is willing to accept shortcuts to stay within budget.

A very good point that is lost on people who do not understand the manufacturing business.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A machine shop will machine parts for several AR manufacturers to the manufacturer's specs.  There is a very real difference in what is coming out of the machine shop.  It all depends on what specs are provided by the manufacturer and how much the manufacturer is willing to spend.  An example would be RRA's lowers.  CMT machined RRA's lowers with the infamous "too tight" rear lug recess at RRA's request.  It wasn't a cost saving measure, but it was a unique request on RRA's part.  The bottom line is that it's all about cost and the accuracy of the specs given to the machine shop.  Don't assume a part is quality just because it came out of a reputable shop.  The manufacturer may have set a cap on the cost and is willing to accept shortcuts to stay within budget.   A very good point that is lost on people who do not understand the manufacturing business. That’s one aspect of it, and a very good point. But the other problem, I believe is simply the demand for AR’s has caused Mfgr’s to loosen up QC specs a bit to push more products out the door. Parts that at one time might have been rejected are now being used. Just my personal opinion.

That is a very valid point and the question then becomes who puts quality over quantity and vice versa.

deleted

Another factor here, is machine tool life. Whether the parts are machined with new drill bits or endmills, or whether they are machined with tooling at the end of their tool life. They will still be in "spec", just at one end or the other of tolerance. Just another factor to consider.

If you are seeking to open up a conversation about manufacturing technology, I think you just did.  Either way, each customer that buys something from another business (i.e. outsourced the job) indicates what they want in terms of quality, adherence to any governing specifications, and deviations from said governing specifications.  Read the many postings around here and you will get a feel for who has the good stuff.  Actually, look up ^ at all the sponsors.  Kind of a good indication as to some of the "who's who" of manufacturers, though everybody has their preference.  There are "designed" variations, and those that are in effect, from the process to fabricate the part.  So, the answer to your question is, they could be the same, or they could be very different.  Ask around and do some "lurking" on the forums here to see what people are saying.  Soo...if I understand things correctly, here is an example you can have:

Toyota Matrix
Pontiac Vibe

Sort of the same car, but built in two different places if I understand things correctly.  If somebody knows the story, do expand.  If I am wrong, do tell.  Either way..have fun!

--Boomer

Quoted: Quoted: A machine shop will machine parts for several AR manufacturers to the manufacturer's specs.  There is a very real difference in what is coming out of the machine shop.  It all depends on what specs are provided by the manufacturer and how much the manufacturer is willing to spend.  An example would be RRA's lowers.  CMT machined RRA's lowers with the infamous "too tight" rear lug recess at RRA's request.  It wasn't a cost saving measure, but it was a unique request on RRA's part.  The bottom line is that it's all about cost and the accuracy of the specs given to the machine shop.  Don't assume a part is quality just because it came out of a reputable shop.  The manufacturer may have set a cap on the cost and is willing to accept shortcuts to stay within budget.   A very good point that is lost on people who do not understand the manufacturing business.

If the original poster understood the manufacturing business he wouldn't have asked someone to explain it. What is up your ass, n00b?

Not sure where all the self-appointed *manufacturing experts* are from but a company I worked for was a tier-one supplier to the ten largest automotive manufactures in the world.

It is true that the majority of the parts made for different customers use the same tooling, same workers, but that is where it ends.

Different customers have very different specifications in some cases. Mercedes will NEVER accept parts to the same level that Ford would...and Ford has different specifications compared to DCX.

Even within a particular customer...say VW for instance...most of their product must meet X criteria. Now their high end stuff falls under even stricter X+ criteria.

What does this mean...the guys who wish to pay $100 per piece get $100 of value - this is *average* and our scrap is *average*. For those that set higher specifications (remember we use the same machines/operators) the product costs exponentially more. A $150 part is not 50% better...maybe only 10-15% better but the acceptable margin is much smaller and that is what is necessary for their application. We throw away more scrap in order to select these *better* parts and the customer pays.

What am I getting at...these self-appointed experts are not correct. In general - you pay more, you get more regardless of who is making the product.

You set the specifications, you pay the price agreed upon, we build the product using our labor and machines. If you want cheap stuff...you will get cheap stuff and maybe the occasional good parts. You want top of the line with tight tolerances...you will pay additional.

Simple business.

Quoted: Not sure where all the self-appointed *manufacturing experts* are from but a company I worked for was a tier-one supplier to the ten largest automotive manufactures in the world. It is true that the majority of the parts made for different customers use the same tooling, same workers, but that is where it ends. Different customers have very different specifications in some cases. Mercedes will NEVER accept parts to the same level that Ford would...and Ford has different specifications compared to DCX. Even within a particular customer...say VW for instance...most of their product must meet X criteria. Now their high end stuff falls under even stricter X+ criteria. What does this mean...the guys who wish to pay $100 per piece get $100 of value - this is *average* and our scrap is *average*. For those that set higher specifications (remember we use the same machines/operators) the product costs exponentially more. A $150 part is not 50% better...maybe only 10-15% better but the acceptable margin is much smaller and that is what is necessary for their application. We throw away more scrap in order to select these *better* parts and the customer pays. What am I getting at...these self-appointed experts are not correct. In general - you pay more, you get more regardless of who is making the product. You set the specifications, you pay the price agreed upon, we build the product using our labor and machines. If you want cheap stuff...you will get cheap stuff and maybe the occasional good parts. You want top of the line with tight tolerances...you will pay additional. Simple business.

I can tell you for a FACT that Honda and Acura parts share the same exact technical and quality specs.  And I am talking transmissions, not ashtrays or mirrors.

I'm thinking he meant more of a Acura vs. Chevy comparison.  Anyways, lots of good points around here, but seems like a certain amount of grumpiness too.  Sooooooo maybe we can focus this discussion again.  People who are viewing...list some notable differences between your different "brands" of rifles that could possibly share parts.  I know alot of people on this forum that have many of the different brands, so chime in here.  I'm curious to know too.


Thanks,
Boomer


Edit: Oops, I see the "in line" comparison too.  Sooo what about the Toyota Camry and Lexus ES300.  I believe they are one in the same but one has a bit more lux to it.

I'm just trying to understand if CMT supplies Stag, Rock River, and S&W are they the exact same rifle.... but with different roll mark? Isn't there only a few machine shops that produce upper/lowers that supply the whole AR market? Only a handful do "in house" manufacturing/machining
 If so,.... what are the differances?

 Bri

P.s thanks to some for the warm welcome

Welcome!

--Boomer

there are actually more than just a couple of manufactueres that do their own machining of lowers.  i counted 12 off the top of my head.

Oly
DPMS
CMT
LMT
Bushmaster
LAR
Knight's
Mega
Superior
Sundevil
Colt
Essential Arms

There are prob a couple more that slipped my mind.  Oly and LMT seem to have the most external machine tool marks (which mean nothing for reliabilty).  CMT the least that i have seen.  Oly seems to have the most internal variance, even though it is prob within tolerance.  i haven't heard of any reliabitly problems with any of these manufactureres, or the other companies they supply (this is for lowers).

only one i have heard of problems with is Vulcan/Hesse.  i'm not sure if they do their own machining or not , but i think they do.  so, that makes 13.