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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 3/6/2006 8:44:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 8:47:48 AM EST by Hookecho]
Sniper360 said to move this here and to provide much more info and I'm sure he is correct.....so here goes

Ok, on saturday I picked up a new upper (24" Wilson 1in8 SS bull on a LMT A3 upper) and a complete BCG/B/CH at the gun show here in Wichita. 450$ total....not a bad deal. The AR is a Bushy Carbon M4 with a 6 position stock which I hate. The LMT mounted with no problems and is nice and tight, something I was worried about. Put some loads together that night and went to the range on sunday morning. Once I got it on paper and went thru the break-in procedure, it was shooting very well. 1/2" groups in a ugly head wind. Here I was thinking that I actually got a good deal at a gunshow.

I'm at work so i dont have the load sheet in front of me but this will be close:
60 gr. Nosler BT softpoints
26.8 gr.s of BLC-2 powder
OAL was right at or just below Winchester factory length, again I'm at work and dont have the load sheet with me.

Other ammo used was:
55 gr. Winchester Whitebox (just to get on paper)
62gr. Winchester Whitebox
65 gr. Blackhills V-Match


I started to hear funny sounds after each shot. It would go bang, I could see the impact behind the target, and I could hear the spring....and it sounded funny. Kind of a boing and rattle. Next shot...click....WTH? I pull the mag (20 rd.'er with 5 rounds loaded) and notice the bolt has not cycled forward. After slapping the side of the receiver with the palm of my hand, the bolt springs forward and closes. I changed Mags thinking it was a mag feed problem, and it still would hang prior to picking up the next round. So I tried to dry cycle the bolt with no Mag in the well, and it would hang. Also it was not smoothly pulling back with the charging handle also. Something was/is dragging. Hmmmm.....I pulled the bolt out and give it a look. I notice that the bolt is sticking as it moves front to rear and the key on the top has some wear right side (now bare metal) and there is now wear marks in the upper where I think that key is dragging on the side if the upper. Also the groups went to hell, from 1/2" to 2"-3" in shot gun fashion. The 1st 60 or so rounds incountered no problems, but after about 60, this problem started and progressivly got worse.

The range owner came over and fiddled with the BCH and dumped a bunch of breakfree CLP on it and sat there and worked the bolt back and forth and it quit sticking. He said it was uber carbon fouled (it was supposedly a new BCH/B).....so now I have a B/BCH that I dont trust and I am not sure what I should/need to do now. Being new to AR's I have not had to tear a bolt down or any of that yet so this is uncharted waters for me. Someone said that new BCG/B's like to break in wet. I have not been able to find any info on this wet vs. dry stuff. If I was at home I would take a pic or 2 of the wear on the key (It had no wear when I purchased it) and the wear in the upper. I noticed that when the bolt is in the forward locked position, that the shaft (??) of the bolt as it goes into the carrier has/had some greenish corrosion (not thick or like a grease) all around the shaft, it was not present when I installed the BCG/B.

Any suggestions?
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 2:25:10 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 4:13:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 4:21:50 PM EST by Hookecho]
Well it seems my "new Bolt" was just a used bolt.




I think the greenish blue stuff on the bolt face is blue locktight?

So, now that I have it apart, what the heck am I looking for? Do I lube it and if so...where?

Oh and thats the 2nd time that mantainence link was posted, I have that manual also, and I cant find anywhere where it says put lube here or dont lube here.......those diagrams are kinda 1950's lol.

So...do I trust that bolt and carrier or do I scrap it and order a new one.
Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:14:51 PM EST
Wow, I agree with you........the bolt doesn't look new [sigh]

All is not lost..........just clean it up.

Check the gas rings for excessive wear................ I would replace the rings just so you know they are new they only cost about $1.50 apiece...and you will need three.

Check the extractor carefully.........run your finger nail along its claw and make sure it still has a sharp edge with no broken spots.

After everything is cleaned up ........use your finger and rub a good gun oil on everything.

Take it to the range and give it another try. You might want to ask Dano.....if he thinks that old bolt thrown into a new upper posses any headspace dangers. You might want to get a Go - No go gauge

Link Posted: 3/6/2006 6:53:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/6/2006 6:59:03 PM EST by Hookecho]
The extractor felt good and the spring feels good. I cant seem to get that green crap off the bolt, and it is also on the inside of the carrier. I'm out of Qtips now her
Well at least before the bolt acted up.....it was shooting very well

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 5:31:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 6:33:29 AM EST
Now that is what I was looking for, Thanks Dano.

After I took those pictures, I hit the whole mess with Breakfree Gun Blast (??... the spray cleaner) and gave it a good scrubbing. But with what you posted, I'll do it again tonight using your proceedure. I have 2 types of Breakfree CLP, a spray and a squeeze bottle. I assume both will work with your guides there in different spots.

On the gas tube, you said to spray CLP down the tube, are you talking about the gas tube that extends down the barrel or the tube on top of the BC? If it is down the barrel side, do I need to let it drain back into (downward) the upper reciever? Or do I just need to work on the outside and then pipe cleaner the inside? Or is it both?

The barrel is new and the Barrel Extention was clean ( I did look prior to heading for the range) but I did like your proceedure for cleaning the cooper fouling there. I did Sweets the barrel after 30 rds and found some minor fouling in 1 lan which cleaned up nicely. I didnt think about the extention. Do you just use a chamber brush then chamber mop and then follow with Qtips? Also, do what do you recommend for neutralizing the Sweets in the extension, acetone or carb cleaner or something like Breakfree Gun Blast (or equvilant?) I have been using Butches Bore Shine on the barrel or when my dad is at the range I steal...er...I mean barrow his special Hoppes with benzine and some other stuff he wont tell because then he would have to kille me super secret bench rest stuff....lol...but mostly its Butches.

Now when I had the bolt out, I looked at the gas rings and.....I have no idea what they should look like. They seem to be nice and shinny and the gaps (ends) look uniform but how loose should they be?

When you say pull the buffer, are you talking about the one in the stock? While I am asking that....the lower has a tele stock and I'm sure has a buffer and spring for a carbine in it. Do I need to change something here now that I have a rifle length gas system?

Anyway thanks for all that good info, I think that needs to be stickied up top somewhere because it goes much more in-depth than the manuals.

Thanks again, I'll let you know how it comes out.
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:47:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 8:50:14 AM EST by Dano523]
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 8:54:09 AM EST
Dano .you say " What is lacking in the lube is a real time cleaner (Read CLP stands for cleaner, lubricant, and protection). Simple put, the use of standard gun oils does nothing to dissolve the gunpowder fouling as it build up in the rifle, which results in the rifle jamming very quickly."

I could be wrong but it seems to me you are saying that you can't fire an AR15 without using CLP ??

I have used and fired an AR type rifle from about 1977.........and I never heard of CLP [ at that time ]
Never had a single moment of a problem......and I used the AR as a duty weapon to protect my life.

Can you care for..........and use the AR15 without buying CLP ?? I say yes , you can. Just plain good gun oil like Break-free{ Automatic weapons} will work fine. I have never had my gun jam in the field because " I didn't use CLP"

I respect your judgement....and if you prefer CLP.......that's fine...........but I would not exclude the many other products on the market that get the job done. But now you have done it ! All my automatic rifles and semi-pistols that fire about 10,000 rounds a year without problems have heard they can't function without CLP .......and I have NONE. So now I am doomed into owning a closet full of jam-o-matics...............oh the pain. It my fault though.............. I shouldn't be reading your posts out-loud.........now where is the yellow pages, I know CLP is listed somewhere.

Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:21:40 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/7/2006 4:40:13 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/7/2006 4:41:28 PM EST by Dano523]
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 8:16:22 AM EST
Now when I had the bolt out, I looked at the gas rings and.....I have no idea what they should look like. They seem to be nice and shinny and the gaps (ends) look uniform but how loose should they be?

Gaps in the bolt rings are not lined up? Right? I couldn't tell if you were saying the ring ends were inline (uniform) or the same size gaps (uniform).
Hope you get it cleared up soon. I had a similar problem and a really good cleaning took care of it.
Link Posted: 3/8/2006 10:36:18 AM EST
Don’t know if you were ever in a prolonged fire fight or shooting situation, but the simple trick to keeping the rifle running between waves was to add a few drops of MIL-L-63460 in threw the bolt exhaust ports of the carrier with the bolt open enough to allow it to run into the gas chamber section on the B/C, then be migrate through out the action during live fire. Later in life, I still use this trick when taking M autos well past the 3K mark without cleanings when using even the dirtiest of burning ammo.

Excellent description of a time honnored method for keeping the "black hornet" -stinging ! I guess we are on the same page............just got caught up in semantics. Yep, your right ! I have always used the MIL-L-63460 on my rifles but didn't know it was a derivative of CLP. I can't remember where I picked them up .....small plastic bottles with nozzles filled with the MIL spec Lube. I have dozens now.

I never let any of my weapons deteriorate into a "dry state"............like trying to run you car without any oil in the engine block.

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