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Posted: 10/3/2012 5:27:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/6/2012 9:00:46 PM EDT by chevcamo]
I originally posted this in the Rimfire and Pistol Caliber section, but wanted to post a link here to get more traffic to help decide.

Link to original topic

Original post text:
Ok, so I'll make this as short and simple as I can.
I work at a plastic injection molding facility as a mold maker. With that being said I can build a mold if I want on my own dime after I'm off the clock.

Some time ago, jonmalibuss, a member on here done a gas 45 AR build. In the process, he made some inserts to use standard AR mags.
Actual build thread with pics of inserts

With future plans of starting a gunsmithing/machining shop up, I have been thinking of custom products I could offer for sale.

So here's the big question.

Would there be any interest in a production replacement for the internals of a standard AR magazine, compared to the buying of mag blocks and alternative magazines?

My initial focus is on the Magpul PMAGs due to knowing at least a 45 will work in it with no mods, but can start working on files for steel mags if interest is there.
My objective is to possibly give another option for using the masses of AR mags some of us have that also have pistol caliber uppers. Which would also not be permanent.
Also the replacements include body filler, follower, and spring. For the Pmags, a new floor plate holder piece would be accompanied.


Any "consumer" input would be nice.



If you have anything to post about the topic, please add it to the original post. And please even if you have nothing to say, at least vote if you have a pistol caliber upper to help me see if there is interest. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/4/2012 8:33:55 AM EDT
I want to add that in the next day or so i will be starting on a quick rendering for GI magazines to possibly give ban states  extra option due to limited mag options as stated in a reply on the original post.
Link Posted: 10/7/2012 10:41:05 PM EDT
Bumping this to keep the votes coming for possible interest.

Will be adding some more CAD pics up in a couple days.

If against the rules, let me know.
Link Posted: 10/8/2012 12:58:15 AM EDT
So your saying, you can make internals to make a pmag work for firing 45acp? Just need an upper with the proper barrel and bolt?

I would go for that in a hart beat. (pending funds of course)
Link Posted: 10/8/2012 4:04:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2012 4:05:00 AM EDT by AR18]
That is not a bad idea. My only question is that which pistol caliber uppers would the inserts work with?   I would not mind building a 9mm/40/45 system.
Link Posted: 10/8/2012 6:20:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2012 8:20:15 AM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
So your saying, you can make internals to make a pmag work for firing 45acp? Just need an upper with the proper barrel and bolt?

I would go for that in a hart beat. (pending funds of course)


Yes, that's what I'm saying. The only thing needing to be on is testing for function and tweaking.

As far as pricing, I wouldn't know that until i get a final product to release to machine the mold and figure out the amount of polymer each part will need. After that the only difference in pricing would be any added coloring. I do have Solidworks Premium which includes everything i need to also be able to figure out cost estimates.
Link Posted: 10/8/2012 6:24:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/8/2012 8:22:18 AM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By AR18:
That is not a bad idea. My only question is that which pistol caliber uppers would the inserts work with?   I would not mind building a 9mm/40/45 system.


My plans are to make a system that will either work with all three or have a convertible mold that can be changed over for a more caliber specific.
Link Posted: 10/8/2012 8:12:03 PM EDT
Sounds like a great plan. There is a definite need for a pistol caliber system like your suggesting. Something quick and easy at a decent price point. I will keep my eye on this thread for updates.

Good luck with it!

-96
Link Posted: 10/10/2012 9:10:41 PM EDT
Thanks for the support, 96.
Link Posted: 10/11/2012 3:52:23 AM EDT
Inserts for the mag well or inserts in the mag, how about neither



If your going the plastic route just build a mag that works with whatever pistol round you want, but with the outside like a AR mag, a la blackdog.
 
Link Posted: 10/13/2012 7:34:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Inserts for the mag well or inserts in the mag, how about neither

If your going the plastic route just build a mag that works with whatever pistol round you want, but with the outside like a AR mag, a la blackdog.  


Thanks for posting in both topics, as requested.
Link Posted: 10/17/2012 2:22:06 PM EDT
Bumpity bump bump. Still researching, haven't had a chance to do any real design work to update this with but still wanting to make sure there is even enough interest.
Link Posted: 10/24/2012 4:47:10 PM EDT
Got a few more pics up on original thread.
Link Posted: 11/1/2012 8:26:33 PM EDT
Bumping with added info.


Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Alright guys and gals, I've been debating on doing this for a few days. I decided to go ahead with it.

If you are interested in this, please send me an email with:

Your user name on here
Your real name
Which version you are interested in getting
What color options you would like so I can get an idea of how many colors to offer if I do get this going
What calibers you will be using this with (in case I do go with caliber specific followers)
How many you would be interested in getting
Which way you like to get this: just the replacement parts or a magazine already set up with the parts
What city and state you live in

And I ask two more things, use an email you get regular mail to because I will see about sending updates out as well as posting on here.
Second, title the subject AR Pistol Cal Mag only that way I know to add you into the update group and all that.

That's all I can think of right now.


Link Posted: 11/15/2012 7:10:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Well surprisingly enough, I haven't had an requests for being put on a list, but that's alright I'm still working on this.

Updates :
I've acquired a few new CAD softwares tat are molding specific that will speed up a few things up.
I have only a couple more tweeks to do with the body filler for the PMAG 30 Rev M and will be getting a couple prototypes done to test fit.
I made a couple of changes to the floor plate for better exterior appearances, and but it's pretty much finished.
As soon as I get the filler sizing completed, I will start on the follower.


If anyone possibly has any magazines that are broke or cracked.... Or anything that makes it unusable. Shoot me an email because I am haven't a really hard time talking myself into chopping up a perfectly fine magazine to do these last measurements that I need..Thanks in advance.


Link Posted: 12/6/2012 8:56:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Alright, well I figured it's time for bump.

A couple weeks ago, I sent some files off for 3D printing and the parts should have shipping on the 4th Tuesday. No update from them, so I figure with the holidays coming up and Thanksgiving having passed recently they may be a couple days late, no big deal.

I do know that if this idea shot off to a start with people wanting some to try out, I have a source that could get some out without doing a complete set of molds like I had planned.
It would, however, be somewhat costly doing it the printed way as the floor plate alone is roughly $5 to get printed and the body filler $31. And then there's the 2ish week wait for me to get the parts from printing.
Not to mention the follower I haven't had to time to finish up on designing and then finding a source for readily available (non-custom) springs.

Will update once I get the parts.
May even show off the baffle design for a suppressor I've been drawing up as it's one of the parts I'm getting printed too to see design functionality and machinability.


Link Posted: 12/15/2012 12:40:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Good news!!! Got the parts in last night. For now I only got a floor plate since I need to change a couple things on the filler before getting it printed. And kinda disappointed in the baffle I got.. the fine detailing was not there at all, rough spots all over the thing.

As for the floor plate, I got it spot on to what I was wanting, just need to get a spring on the way to check the clip fittings.

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo162/csanford/IMG_20121215_074521.jpg

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo162/csanford/IMG_20121215_074545.jpg

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo162/csanford/IMG_20121215_074612.jpg

http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo162/csanford/IMG_20121215_074809.jpg

Let me know what you guys think.


Link Posted: 12/15/2012 3:28:51 PM EDT
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?
Link Posted: 12/15/2012 5:19:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


No. This one is for the PMags. I didn't think to put that in the post. It's appearance is a little rough, but the fitting and positioning on the floor plate is perfect. Nice close but not tight fit on the tab part holding the bottom piece on, but a closer fit than the original stock piece.

I've come to the conclusion that making a USGI mag hold 45 isn't gonna be easy due to all the flexing. With some permanent mods, it can be done. However, one of my goals with this is for there to be no need for permanent mods. That way people can have the change over kits for mags they already have, while having an upper in pistol caliber, but if they ever sell it, they can keep the mags due to being able to change them back to original setup. A 20 round USGI mag may work better due to the shorter body, but I don't have one to test out on the flexing.

And to be quite honest, I currently have no plans to pick one up, seeing how only 6 of the 84 votes on the other thread are for a 20 rounder. I really wish more people would add a vote on this... 84 votes out of over 1500 views (even though 12 of those votes don't count as they were basically no's to my question. That's less than 5% voting. Numbers like that would make someone less persistent to just drop the project, make a few for himself, and forget everyone else that doesn't have the needed skills or equipment.

Even more so, the post I did asking for emails to get a list going to see if doing a mold would be a viable option. I have yet to have a single email about it, so there must not be that must true interest in it.
I didn't want to add this in the post, but anyone that signed on in the beginning for the updates would get a free kit or a decent discount for helping getting this going. That was going to be something added into the email updates, so I wouldn't all of a sudden get a hike in interest and everyone wanting on the list due to that small detail. (Kinda like some of the posts in the EE, where someone says first however many gets it for free, or yada yada)

If you're still reading this, thanks. It's nice to know someone actually reads the entire posts. And also sorry for the ranting, but with no information coming in that I minutely need, I can't get a good forecast on how/where this product will end up. Kinda like the Magpul PDR, not enough interest from the military for contracts so they snubbed it.
Link Posted: 12/15/2012 5:22:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/15/2012 5:27:19 PM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


And I just realized you were from an earlier post. Good to see someone keeping up with this other than myself.


ETA: In that last picture, that's the baffle design, I've been working on. I'm going to get it reprinted, but with the Ultrafine selection instead of just normal detailing. The majority of my holes were nowhere close to the right size, which I can expect from 3D printing, but I wouldn't have figured something as bad as I got. Only downside to that is it will cost twice as much for me to get and another month of waiting.
Link Posted: 12/16/2012 9:03:41 AM EDT
Shut up and take my money!

Link Posted: 12/16/2012 9:43:17 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Shut up and take my money!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m80geq0XxR1rn95k2o1_500.gif


LOL. I've been writing your a reply from this morning, but have been getting side tracked with my nephew wanting to climb all over me for the past 4 hours.
Link Posted: 12/16/2012 11:21:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Shut up and take my money!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m80geq0XxR1rn95k2o1_500.gif


LOL. I've been writing your a reply from this morning, but have been getting side tracked with my nephew wanting to climb all over me for the past 4 hours.


I need to read your IMs more closely than I have time for just now.  But I did see your address and will put some money in the mail tomorrow.
Link Posted: 12/16/2012 11:50:16 AM EDT
No, no on the money. Read the IMs first.
Link Posted: 12/17/2012 8:15:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


And I just realized you were from an earlier post. Good to see someone keeping up with this other than myself.


ETA: In that last picture, that's the baffle design, I've been working on. I'm going to get it reprinted, but with the Ultrafine selection instead of just normal detailing. The majority of my holes were nowhere close to the right size, which I can expect from 3D printing, but I wouldn't have figured something as bad as I got. Only downside to that is it will cost twice as much for me to get and another month of waiting.


Yep, i check in form time to time. I'll keep watching to see where your up to next. I am very interested in the idea of an easy way to fire 45 out of a standard ar lower. Only thing i dont know is what upper configuration would be compatible with the pmags.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 4:07:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2012 4:10:44 AM EDT by AR45fan]
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


And I just realized you were from an earlier post. Good to see someone keeping up with this other than myself.


ETA: In that last picture, that's the baffle design, I've been working on. I'm going to get it reprinted, but with the Ultrafine selection instead of just normal detailing. The majority of my holes were nowhere close to the right size, which I can expect from 3D printing, but I wouldn't have figured something as bad as I got. Only downside to that is it will cost twice as much for me to get and another month of waiting.


Yep, i check in form time to time. I'll keep watching to see where your up to next. I am very interested in the idea of an easy way to fire 45 out of a standard ar lower. Only thing i dont know is what upper configuration would be compatible with the pmags.


I have an Oly blow back upper at home, I'll check and give you a definitive answer tonight but I'm 90% sure the Oly ejector will not allow the insertion of a standard magazine.  This PMag mod is for DI uppers.  Like I said, 90% sure.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 4:45:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


And I just realized you were from an earlier post. Good to see someone keeping up with this other than myself.


ETA: In that last picture, that's the baffle design, I've been working on. I'm going to get it reprinted, but with the Ultrafine selection instead of just normal detailing. The majority of my holes were nowhere close to the right size, which I can expect from 3D printing, but I wouldn't have figured something as bad as I got. Only downside to that is it will cost twice as much for me to get and another month of waiting.


Yep, i check in form time to time. I'll keep watching to see where your up to next. I am very interested in the idea of an easy way to fire 45 out of a standard ar lower. Only thing i dont know is what upper configuration would be compatible with the pmags.


I have an Oly blow back upper at home, I'll check and give you a definitive answer tonight but I'm 90% sure the Oly ejector will not allow the insertion of a standard magazine.  This PMag mod is for DI uppers.  Like I said, 90% sure.


Thanks, look forward to your reply. I hope that we can have a complete build list posted for a rifle once this whole mag conversion is up and running.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 6:21:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Interesting. Which is this one for? the USGI mag to be able to hold 45?


And I just realized you were from an earlier post. Good to see someone keeping up with this other than myself.


ETA: In that last picture, that's the baffle design, I've been working on. I'm going to get it reprinted, but with the Ultrafine selection instead of just normal detailing. The majority of my holes were nowhere close to the right size, which I can expect from 3D printing, but I wouldn't have figured something as bad as I got. Only downside to that is it will cost twice as much for me to get and another month of waiting.


Yep, i check in form time to time. I'll keep watching to see where your up to next. I am very interested in the idea of an easy way to fire 45 out of a standard ar lower. Only thing i dont know is what upper configuration would be compatible with the pmags.


I have an Oly blow back upper at home, I'll check and give you a definitive answer tonight but I'm 90% sure the Oly ejector will not allow the insertion of a standard magazine.  This PMag mod is for DI uppers.  Like I said, 90% sure.


Thanks, look forward to your reply. I hope that we can have a complete build list posted for a rifle once this whole mag conversion is up and running.


Yea, I've been meaning to do that. I know for a fact that the DI uppers will work. But I'm not sure of the blowback bolts. The Oly ejector will be in the way, I know for sure. I know this going to kill the idea for a lot of potential buyers.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 7:23:16 AM EDT
I love this idea. I do not have a pistol caliber setup yet but would be very interested in one.

Would you be willing to do rifle calipers as well?  5.45x39 works in a Pmag if you modify the follower  I would be willing to do the leg work on modifying a follower that you could use as a template and then do the test firing if you are interested in such a project. There isn't much that needs to be done for the follower to work so this should be pretty simple and offer something that a lot of people want.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 7:52:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2012 8:34:04 AM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By SlowTA:
I love this idea. I do not have a pistol caliber setup yet but would be very interested in one.

Would you be willing to do rifle calipers as well?  5.45x39 works in a Pmag if you modify the follower  I would be willing to do the leg work on modifying a follower that you could use as a template and then do the test firing if you are interested in such a project. There isn't much that needs to be done for the follower to work so this should be pretty simple and offer something that a lot of people want.


I'll look at the case dimensions and see what would need to be done. I actually had thought about doing custom followers for different rounds like that too.. The WSSM needs a modified follower too, as well as the 458 SOCOM and 50 beowulf.. Not for reliable feeding but for better loading.


ETA : I looked at the dimensions and I looks like a fairly simple fix. I will only some figuring and shoot you an email with the ideas of what might would work. I don't have a 5.45 upper so if I did anything, I wouldn't have a way to check and see if it worked. What kind of tools/machines do you have, so I know how detailed to be?
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 11:50:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By SlowTA:
I love this idea. I do not have a pistol caliber setup yet but would be very interested in one.

Would you be willing to do rifle calipers as well?  5.45x39 works in a Pmag if you modify the follower  I would be willing to do the leg work on modifying a follower that you could use as a template and then do the test firing if you are interested in such a project. There isn't much that needs to be done for the follower to work so this should be pretty simple and offer something that a lot of people want.


I'll look at the case dimensions and see what would need to be done. I actually had thought about doing custom followers for different rounds like that too.. The WSSM needs a modified follower too, as well as the 458 SOCOM and 50 beowulf.. Not for reliable feeding but for better loading.


ETA : I looked at the dimensions and I looks like a fairly simple fix. I will only some figuring and shoot you an email with the ideas of what might would work. I don't have a 5.45 upper so if I did anything, I wouldn't have a way to check and see if it worked. What kind of tools/machines do you have, so I know how detailed to be?


IM inbound
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 12:29:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2012 12:29:10 PM EDT by Forest]
Topic Moved
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 3:27:01 PM EDT
Okay, I figured this was the case but here's the proof. Bottom is Oly pistol caliber upper, top is Cav Arms lower. You can see the Oly ejectors cuts right through the STANAG mag well area.

Link Posted: 12/18/2012 3:50:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Okay, I figured this was the case but here's the proof. Bottom is Oly pistol caliber upper, top is Cav Arms lower. You can see the Oly ejectors cuts right through the STANAG mag well area.

http://i461.photobucket.com/albums/qq331/AR45fan/2015F8F6-0B67-4280-AC63-11E181518973-708-000000C5B6374D83.jpg


Can you shoot some pics of the bolt carrier and bolt? Specifically around the carrier key, and bolt face too. I'm thinking up an idea, but want to confirm some things first. Would be great help.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 4:46:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2012 4:47:18 PM EDT by AR45fan]
Not sure if this will help, I'm not an iPhone camera master obviously, but here's an attempt:









You know I'm enthusiastic about your project so go ahead and ask for more if needed.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 8:38:32 PM EDT
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DI upper?
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 9:08:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DI upper?


Direct impingement. Pretty much the same thing as a normal AR. Instead of just being blowback, a DI upper uses a modified bolt that will accept the 45 (of whichever caliber wanted), gas tube with gas port on barrel and then a gas block.
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 9:19:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/18/2012 11:02:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DI upper?


Direct impingement. Pretty much the same thing as a normal AR. Instead of just being blowback, a DI upper uses a modified bolt that will accept the 45 (of whichever caliber wanted), gas tube with gas port on barrel and then a gas block.


OH! hahahhaha.... I thought in this topic DI was short for some company name that makes a 45 upper. Glad i cleared that up. I didnt know any one made a DI 45 upper.
Link Posted: 12/19/2012 8:38:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/19/2012 8:40:29 AM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By St33l-1096:
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a DI upper?


Direct impingement. Pretty much the same thing as a normal AR. Instead of just being blowback, a DI upper uses a modified bolt that will accept the 45 (of whichever caliber wanted), gas tube with gas port on barrel and then a gas block.


OH! hahahhaha.... I thought in this topic DI was short for some company name that makes a 45 upper. Glad i cleared that up. I didnt know any one made a DI 45 upper.


Yup.. Mad-Machinist and ronaldwilliams, members on here makes them.

ETA : Check out the big .45 conversion topic in the pistol cal and rimfire section in the ar section
Link Posted: 12/20/2012 4:19:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2012 4:38:21 PM EDT by AR45fan]
Grease Gun magazine spring:



Link Posted: 1/8/2013 4:36:51 PM EDT
No updates, but wanted to bump it up.
Link Posted: 1/20/2013 2:00:06 PM EDT
Bump.
Link Posted: 2/1/2013 9:35:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Bump.


Thanks for the bump, here's another to bring it back up with the other thread.
Link Posted: 2/2/2013 5:08:48 PM EDT
Originally Posted By chevcamo:
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
Bump.


Thanks for the bump, here's another to bring it back up with the other thread.


What other thread?
Link Posted: 2/5/2013 7:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/5/2013 7:47:59 PM EDT by chevcamo]
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
What other thread?


This one lol.
^This one, is located in pistol and rimfire section.

I actually had this one in General AR discussion, but a mod moved it to the magazine specific section.
Link Posted: 2/7/2013 1:52:33 PM EDT
Oh, yeah. I saw that one.

Bump
Link Posted: 2/25/2013 3:28:18 PM EDT
No updates, just a bump.
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 8:42:16 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/16/2013 8:54:48 AM EDT by AR45fan]
This is the only reason I'm holding on to my P-Mags....
Link Posted: 3/16/2013 10:14:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AR45fan:
This is the only reason I'm holding on to my P-Mags....


if you get tired of keeping them ill give you my address and trade cash for mags at a reasonable rate. sleep on it.
Link Posted: 4/10/2013 6:12:15 AM EDT
Bumping this back up.

Only update is that I talked to a 3D printer rep about possibly leasing a machine and he also recommended a few semi local places that may be interested in working with me and the project since they're in a similar field of products,  i.e. PRIMOS.

So I'll be getting in contact with the guy up there in a couple of weeks when I get another free day to take off and get a couple of parts made while there.
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