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Posted: 8/25/2009 4:12:49 PM EST
I got my 22 conversion direct from Spike's, along with a few spare o-rings and e-clips just in case, since folks said those are the likely items to lose or damage and shipping is silly on a $2 item. It arrived promptly and in good shape. It had clearly been test fired, there was a bit of residue on it, but a quick wipe down cleaned it off.

A little CLP on most of it, and some grease on the rails and it went into the MP15 without a hitch. A few minutes to load up the BDM and it was time to shoot. Having used a number of conversions for my 1911's and having read about various teething issues I wasn't expecting the results I got. I'm now at about 200 rounds with no jams, misfires, hiccups bobbles or twitches. I did that over two sessions and just wiped it down between, no relube other than more CLP on the cloth used to wipe it. All residue came off without effort, that finish is smoooooth. I can't torture test it, since I returned the gun to standard setup after each use, but I did notice that other than a bit of residue along the top where the gas tube exits it was very clean inside. One wipe down the barrel with a bore snake left it shiny and clean. I did completely clean and relube the conversion after the second session, but there weren't any visible wear marks of a product "breaking in".

Ammo used was about 50/50 Blazer and Remington Golden Bullet bulk. From other reports I wasn't sure either would be that reliable, being middling/low quality, but no problems at all. Next I'll try some winchester bulk stuff and remington game loads, then maybe a few stingers and Aguila Super. I'm waiting on a supply of some better stuff to do real accuracy testing, but I fired a semi-careful group with the last magazine of remington at 25' (yeah, feet, not yards, just out back into a bullet trap). The group was well about half an inch plus one wacko flyer I attribute to the ammo since it fired normally but sounded a bit odd and hit well over an inch left. Group size was comparable to what I get with my 10/22 and old Marlin bolt action, except I don't think I've ever gotten my ruger to shoot that many of the rem. in a row without failure of some kind. With a rest and magnification, and more care, I'm betting it can do even better, which I consider impressive for a conversion and a 1:9 barrel.

I'm impressed, and very glad I chose the Spike's conversion. I think the finish will more than make up for the small increase in cost compared to other brands. A couple hundred rounds is hardly a full test, but a few magazines of golden junk with no issues is pretty impressive. I'm going to get a lot more trigger time with my AR now and that's the bottom line.

Remy Levine
A very satisfied customer.
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 4:19:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2009 4:20:34 PM EST by shadowcop]
I love my Spikes set ups.
Good to hear the conversion unit is running good. I'm waiting on one now. I have two ST22 uppers that run great.
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 5:10:09 PM EST
I'm pretty happy with it, 25' is hardly a real test for accuracy, my own wobbling and point of aim errors probably made up most of the spread. The "group" was the full magazine so one slight flyer and a half inch hole made me very happy. Tomorrow I'll try some ten shot groups with the blazer, winchester and rem. game loads to see how they fair.
Link Posted: 8/25/2009 5:20:13 PM EST
Congrats, Remington Golden Bullets ran? I'll have to give that a try, none of the Ciener Conversions ate that.
I've been saving it for my 10/22's, they seem to love it.
Let us know more about what it'll digest.

Have a blast with it and Welcome to AR-22.
Spec
Link Posted: 9/1/2009 2:32:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2009 2:36:03 PM EST by Remyrw]
So far everything's run. Winchester bulk packs (non plated hp), Remington Game Loads and aguila Super Extra can be added to the list of stuff that worked fine. I've got some subsonic remington in the mail to try out next. I have to say, I'm very pleased. Still not a single failure, not even a misfire or hangfire, which is impressive given some of the ammo used. Total it's only at around 400 still, but most of that's dirt cheap stuff that usually has a higher failure rate. Maybe the strong hammer spring is helping, it's a stock spring still. I'm switching it out this week to a lighter JP kit so we'll see if that effects things.


For those concerned with plugging the gas port, I'd done about 250 or so rounds through it, very few being plated at all, and the first round of 5.56/223 (not sure what the actual load was offhand, probably a handload actually) cycled fine and loaded the next round. I didn't notice any difference from usual or between that and the next shot.

We used it last night to introduce a new shooter to rifles. She started on the 10/22 and then went to the ar with the conversion. The fit on the AR was actually better, but she might find it a bit heavy to offhand for long, I've got an HBAR on it and it's a fairly hefty rifle for not having rails or anything hanging off the front. She also tried out my 1911 with a conversion on it and liked that but needs more instruction in sighting and form with pistols before the next trip.


eta: at 25 yards it was about as accurate as we were. We weren't benching it but were regularly resting elbows on the port's shelf (indoor range). I didn't notice any real difference in group size at that distance compared to the 10/22 or the ar with 5.56 ammo.
Link Posted: 9/1/2009 3:37:00 PM EST
I know that badazzar15 is continually working to improve Spike's products. They must be nearing perfection if eats all of that ammo fine.

Beware: I've had lots of miss fires with some rifles when I've installed the JP Hammer Spring. In other combinations it's fine.
For some of the shooting that I do I gave up on the JP Trigger Spring. It won't return the trigger fast enough before I'm pulling it again.

Thanx for the details in your range report, makes it interesting to read when you can visualize the participants and their methods of shooting.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:40:05 AM EST
Originally Posted By SpecOps-13:
I know that badazzar15 is continually working to improve Spike's products. They must be nearing perfection if eats all of that ammo fine.

Beware: I've had lots of miss fires with some rifles when I've installed the JP Hammer Spring. In other combinations it's fine.
For some of the shooting that I do I gave up on the JP Trigger Spring. It won't return the trigger fast enough before I'm pulling it again.

Thanx for the details in your range report, makes it interesting to read when you can visualize the participants and their methods of shooting.


When I install the JP reduced power hammer springs, I also cut the tail off of the hammer (like the JP speed hammer) and cut a coil or two off of the firing pin spring. I do make sure I have enough length left on the firing pin spring that the firing pin is still below the surface of the bolt face when gently held all the way forward. I don't think a .22LR would slam fire, but I don't want to chance it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 2:36:04 AM EST
I'm sticking with the stock hammer for now, but plan to do significant testing with the springs before counting on them. I don't do much in the way of rapid fire so I'm not worried about that. I tend to be more slow and deliberate. I long ago figured out I'll never be FAST so I make sure each and every shot is just right, I just practice till I can do it within bullhorn shouting distance of the truly FAST folks.

Anyway, if the stock hammer and the new springs have issues I'll probably try the bobbed hammer next, but might just put the old springs back in and save up the "gun money" for a whole new trigger package. I might also try just changing out the trigger spring and leaving the hammer spring. I won't get the full reduction that way, but maybe it'll be enough to suit me. I'd love a really nice match trigger on the gun, but wouldn't want anything that picky or expensive on a gun that gets used and abused as much as the AR might.

I'll see about pics of the shooters from Monday just for the hell of it.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 4:09:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 4:10:41 AM EST by SpecOps-13]
davestoll: Tom and I swapped some IM's a long time ago about cutting the tail off the hammer for use with lighter springs. I never did get around to trying it. Someday when shooting and testing slows down I'll give it a try with the spring sets I still have. I did find 2 rifles and a pistol that worked fine with the light springs and standard hammer.

Remyrw: Some of the shooting I've done in the past allows 1 second per shot through a full magazine. You lose points for going over time and gain for under time. But that was 5.56. None of us do it any more especially since ammo went so high. The light springs were killing me when the trigger couldn't reset or the primer didn't bust. We called it High Stress, Rapid Tactical. Multiple targets, points for hits and points for time.

The tests that I initially ran on the 22 conversions and dedicated uppers was a modified version of that. Firing 150 round groups at a rate of 1 shot every 2 to 3 seconds to establish a baseline accuracy for different conversions and twist rates. I did the dedicated uppers that way to get a baseline there too. It's hard for me to slow down but I did fire 2 groups of 5 shots that were under 1/4" at 25 yards last weekend using a Spike's Lothar Walther Upper. I still need to do some work on the trigger of that lower. Maybe I'll play with Cutting the hammer tail and lighter springs at some point with that rifle. I'll need every advantage I can get for tests at 50 and 100 yards.

I'm not always right in what I say, try or do but atleast I'm out there trying and doing. Normally those who bust my butt, do it over grammar or from misinterpretation of what I've said. This is a very good post, it appears we're all helping each other learn and having fun. Wish the whole forum could be that way.

Spec
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 5:56:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 5:57:17 AM EST by Remyrw]
that's a bit faster than I usually go my fast is about 1.5 between shots unless very close. 'll have to do a pure speed trial after the switch to see if it's an issue.

if I get the springs in early enough i'll try that tonight.

to clarify my shooting, even with a 1x dot sight at 75' I want every shot within a couple inches of where I wanted. so I go just slow enough to confirm poa and squeeze. i think a bit of magnification would speed it up. I noticed a real delay the other night trying to tell whether I was high or low on the silouhette [sp]. I might try it again with the scope at low mag. previously with the scope on there I was doing precision not speed. lol this sound like a good excuse to pick up the new primary arms sight or a magnifier for the one I have.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:41:23 PM EST
My springs didn't arrive, but the subsonic remington did. I just put five rounds through for a quick function check and no issues. Obviously not a very complete test, but at least it cycles properly and didn't jam every round.... It wasn't massively quieter but seemed significantly quieter than regular stuff. If accuracy checks out at least within acceptable limits I might make it my default ammo for shooting here. It'll bug the animals less.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:44:26 PM EST
Training for extreme speed did help with the type of shooting I did for accuracy comparisons of the different conversions, twist rates and even the tests of Spike's Dedicated Rifles. With the 1 in 7" Colt that I shot with Spike's conversion, it was a huge shock how much difference the right ammo can make.

In general, the higher the power of the optic the longer it takes to acquire a target. I use EOTech's on my tactical weapons. I do have a 7.62 x 39 AR with a 3x magnifier but I may do some hunting with it. Darkness can totally FU your shooting. It uses different parts of the eye, takes some training and practice to overcome.

Cool, let us know about the Remington Sub Ammo. It may give another option for short range accuracy.

Good Shooting,
SO-13
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 3:00:56 PM EST
As Spec said the magnified optic will slow you down and magnify the wobblys unless rested. As far as triggers go have Bill Springfield work his magic on your trigger for 35.00. Money well spent.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 3:24:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 3:31:39 PM EST by Remyrw]
The speed issue I ran into wasn't getting on target, but seeing WHERE on target I was. With the targets I was using the X ring is an oval inside the 10 ring oval with no color/shade change. It was very hard to see quickly whether I was high or low in the 10ring oval so the big delay was me moving my aim around to make sure where I was. Once I'd switched over to just the dot, not the donut with dot, it was a bit better, the donut was making it tougher to see the very faint lines on the target that far out. A 3x or 4x would have made visibility much better, and I don't worry about the wobble, as long as it's wobbling in the right area :) Obviously if I used too much it would make it slower, but there's a nice middle ground for what I want. Now, if I was going pure speed and just wanted it roughly center of mass.... then most definitely, no magnification needed at that range and it would be much much faster shooting. I just don't do that very often. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.


Trigger wise I've already done about all that's needed, minus spring tweaks. I have a feeling my desired tension is going to be higher than the yellow JP's but if they're reliable I'll go with it.

eta: reading what I posted I see the obvious solution to the aiming issue. Next time I slap a darn shoot'n see bullseye on there and will actually be able to see where I am trying to aim. Or just use a more appropriate target, but it's what was up there already.
Link Posted: 9/3/2009 4:18:38 AM EST
In all honesty, You do what ever will work for you. As you said, different strokes. Other people have seen me shoot and tried it with little success. It's not for everyone. I actually shoot worse the more I slow down. Guess I think too much while I'm waiting.

My Wife is a deadly shot with a pistol at 25 yards but she has a weird stance and grip. Others will see her and offer advise on what she should do to shoot better. When they see her target, they generally Shut Up, look at the floor and go back to their own booth. She's one of those people who believe a scope is cheating.

Spec
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 9:00:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2009 10:37:44 AM EST by Remyrw]
Ok, new springs in and time to rock. I ran into a snag though. I'm not sure if it's a new mag issue, golden bullets issue (since I switched to blazers for a few rounds and it worked better) or a cleaning/lube issue. Rapid fire for about ten rounds worked fine, as fast as I could pull the trigger. then it failed to fully chamber. Subsequent rounds had the same issue. Blazer worked, but the first one did give issues chambering. The conversion was VERY dirty, more so than after a full mag or two of the same golden bullet junk, so I don't know what to think. I've cleaned it completely, greased up the rails and am going to try to finish that magazine. If that doesn't work right I'll switch magazines to the remington game loads I was planning to fire after the GB. Then maybe some more blazer.

Trigger wise I'm pretty happy. I left the original disconnector spring in place since it was being a pain about coming out and I decided it wasn't worth the effort. The other two were replaced with light JP springs. The trigger feel is definitely lighter and feels a bit smoother and I didn't have reset issues with my speed run. I was firing as fast as I could but maybe if you're faster it can't keep up, or just the differences between guns and spring sets, who knows. It works, it's good, heheh.


eta: Weird. I guess after a little break in it stops liking the golden bullets. Or I just got REALLY lucky in the first few magazines worth. The problems were mostly failure to fully eject or fully seat, no duds, but it does seem like a power issue and sticking cases. Blazer fed just fine, I rapid fired 20 rounds with 0 issues even after dirtying it up with the GB retest. I guess I'm leaving the remington to the bolt action. It's not particularly reliable in the other two autos either. I'll try the subsonics next but don't know what to expect. They worked just fine before, but so did the GB and game loads.

eta2: Bah, the subsonics had one feed issue, just didn't want to fully seat. That was early on, later rounds did fine, but still... If the chamber area wasn't already pretty polished I'd consider that to help, but I have a feeling it just boils down to looser tolerances for the remington ammo making it slightly oversized for the chamber. The spring just doesn't have enough force to ram them home every time. On the other hand, I rapid fired the last five or so and still no trigger issues, so I'm quite pleased with the result of that project. The only real downside to all this is that about 2/3 of my current 22 stash is remington of some variety or another. I need to do some more checks with the winchester I have, hopefully it's still 100% since it's what my local walmart most commonly has available at a good price.

ETA3: Winchester Xpert HV non plated worked fine for 10 rounds rapid fire. No jams, very positive and consistent feel. So it looks like my oddball earlier luck with remington ammo was just that, luck. Oh well.
Link Posted: 9/4/2009 11:57:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2009 11:58:58 AM EST by SpecOps-13]
Remyrw: Great report.... You're helping everybody with the tests you're running. Thank you

Like I mentioned some rifles are alright with the springs and some aren't. You have it made with them working for you.

I was watching Future weapons last night. While they were testing the 6.5 Grendel, 5.56 and AK-47, one shooter ( Not Mack) was demonstrating tactical fire with an AK about like the 1 second timing I mentioned. He'd pop up, dump a few rounds rapid fire and back to cover. It's seen, at a point just over 7 minutes into the video if you're interested.

Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwtMo5-NU1A

Spec

Link Posted: 9/4/2009 5:53:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/4/2009 6:14:47 PM EST by Remyrw]
I'll have to check that video later, just got back from the range and ice cream :)

We dumped about 200 or so rounds of winchester through it, just two snags both of which were dud rounds so not the gun's fault. The ammo has about the same ratio in the 10/22 and 1911 with conversion. Thank god for 22, because we just about killed that bulk box in an hour, plus all the 223 and a bunch of 9 and 45. Amazing how much ammo you can go through in an hour with three people on two ports.

I've decided that AR's are cheap to buy, expensive to shoot. Not because it's so costly per round, but because it's way too easy to burn through a lot. My current plan is to only bring a few mags worth loaded up and no extra, it's easier than counting on self control

Unrelated to the 22 conversion, but we fired about 120 rounds of mixed 223/5.56 without issues with ignition. PMC, Winchester white box, and Prvi M193 and 69grn match. The trigger felt great, best few dollars I've spent on a gun upgrade ever.

Sooo, to recap, my "reliable" list so far:
Winchester Xpert HV (non plated)
Blazer
Aguila Super
Remington Subsonics (needs more testing to be sure, but track record's decent)

I really want to pin down why the remington stuff went from just fine to problems, Magazine angle? Spring tension? Lube amount/location? Just plain tolerance variations in the ammo?

An informal accuracy test with the scope at 12x resulted in a sub 3" group with the Winchester. A good bit of the wiggle was me, ignoring the shots called as lousy it was more of a 2" group. this is 25 yards. Not excellent, but prone or benched rather than just resting my elbows on the port's shelf would probably cut another half inch off just on wiggle factor so that's more than good enough for me, particularly with bulk ammo. I got a roughly 2.5" group offhand with 223, but took a lot longer and put more care into each shot. No internet bs for me, lol, that translates into about a 10" group at 100 yards offhand with magnification, I'll take it.
Link Posted: 11/5/2009 8:18:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/5/2009 8:21:52 AM EST by Remyrw]
reviving an old thread for an update.

Some tweaking of the recoil spring and polishing of the feed ramp and entry area of the chamber has done wonders. Assuming a clean chamber everything I have chambers and fires. I had some unrelated problems after changing lowers but once they were sorted out I did some more testing.

Three new ones for the list, but even the remingtons are working again. Just have to actually clean things now and then to keep them happy, if the chamber is dirty they don't fully feed every time.

Aguila 40gr subsonics work well
Fiocchi 38gr Subsonics work well

Eley Club is so so. It works, but I wasn't real impressed. I imagine it would do better with a proper barrel, not one meant for 5.56 ammo, but it was not any more accurate than anything else tried so far with the exception of golden bullets.

Both of these are a good bit quieter than the remington subsonics, with the fiocchi being slightly quieter than the aguilla. I haven't done any accuracy testing with these yet, just noise/function.

currently running a bobbed hammer with jp yellows, firing pin spring is stock, recoil spring only cut down about 1/4". I might drop another coil or two there but need to put a few hundred more rounds of the fiocchi through it to decide. That's my new standard ammo.

I can't stress enough that polishing and smoothing the turn over point at the top of the ramp, entry to the chamber and then also the TOP of the chamber helps tremendously if you have feed issues with anything. That first 1/4" of spring also made a huge difference in getting rid of regular stove pipe jams. They come pretty smooth, but some fine polish compound and a few minutes with the dremel and a pointed felt tip will work wonders.
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