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Posted: 1/17/2016 3:39:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/1/2016 10:10:47 PM EDT by Molon]
Speer LE 64 Grain Gold Dot:  Velocity, Accuracy and Terminal Ballistics






Speer has expanded its line of Gold Dot ammunition to include rifle ammunition in 223 Remington. The ammunition examined for this post is loaded with a 64 grain bonded soft point bullet that has less exposed lead at the meplat than Federal’s 62 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw bullet that is used in their LE223T2 load.

The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a boat-tail and a cannelure. This load is charged with a ball powder that according to Speer is a “flash suppressed propellant.” The primers are sealed and crimped in place, however, there is no sealant at the case mouth.  


















The 64 grain Gold Dot bullet has a nominal length of 0.825” and a specific gravity of 10.0. A barrel with a 1:9” twist should stabilize it quite well.







From ATK’s website:

“Like their handgun counterparts, the Gold Dot rifle bullets are constructed using Gold Dot technology. The process of joining the jacket and core one molecule at a time eliminates the potential for the leading cause of bullet failure—jacket/core separation. It also ensures impressive weight retention through barriers as tough as auto-glass.”







The 64 grain Gold Dot load was chronographed from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel, a 16” Colt light-weight barrel and a 14.5” Colt M4A1 barrel. All of the barrels have chrome lining, NATO chambers and 1:7” twists. 10-shot strings of the load were fired over an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. All velocities listed are muzzle velocities as calculated from the instrumental velocities using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program.















Accuracy testing was conducted following my usual protocol of firing 10-shot groups from a concrete bench at a distance of 100 yards using my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15. This barrel has a 1:7.7” twist. The free-float rail of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest and the PRS stock was stabilized in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Wind conditions were monitored using a Wind Probe. Sighting was performed using a Leupold Competition Series scope with a mirage shade. The scope was adjusted to be parallax free at 100 yards.








Prior to testing the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I fired a 10-shot control group using hand-loaded 69 grain Sierra MatchKings. That group had an extreme spread of 0.86”. Three 10-shot groups of the Speer LE 64 grain Gold Dots fired in a row had extreme spreads that measured:

1.11”
0.91”
1.30”

for a 10-shot average extreme spread of 1.12”! I over-layed those three groups on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The composite group had a mean radius of 0.33”.










…..



Velocity Update for the 64 grain Gold Dot

Manufacturers typically use bolt-action “test barrels” to obtain their advertised velocities for their ammunition. These test barrels are usually 24” long and often have minimum spec SAAMI chambers. These factors combine to give ammunition higher advertised velocities than the velocities that we actually obtain from our AR-15s. Also, due to its gas operating system, the AR-15 looses 20 fps or more of velocity compared to an equivalent barrel without a gas system.


Sierra test barrels


Shooting Times 2009


As an example, Hornady advertises the velocity of their 55 grain TAP load as 3240 fps. When fired from an AR-15 with a 24” Krieger barrel with a 5.56 Match Chamber (and of course a gas operating system) the muzzle velocity of the 55 grain TAP load was 3167 fps, for a difference of 73 fps from the advertised velocity.

Speer’s website reports the muzzle velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot load as 3000 fps. When fired from my 24” Krieger barreled AR-15, the 64 grain Gold Dot load had a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps, for a difference of 88 fps from the advertised velocity.



....



Terminal Ballistic Properties of the 64 grain Gold Dot

Thanks to the efforts of Dr. G.K. Roberts, we now have some excellent answers to the questions of terminal ballistics pertaining to the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot LE load. The results shown below indicate the penetration of this load in bare ballistic gelatin as well as after having passed through auto-glass. Auto (safety) glass is one of the most difficult barriers (of those commonly tested) for 5.56mm/.223 Remington loads to penetrate and still perform adequately in ballistic gelatin.











Comparisons.

















…..



Notes on Data from the ATK Workshops

The ATK Workshops have a history of failing to follow the proper protocols for terminal ballistic testing and of publishing misleading and fabricated data. As a simple example, the established method of determining the expanded diameter of a recovered bullet, is to measure the widest and narrowest portions “at the leading edge of the deformed bullet” and then average those two measurements to obtain the recovered diameter.

Witnesses to some of the ATK Workshops have reported that the deformed bullets were measured at the widest portion of the bullet only and then that measurement only was recorded as the recovered diameter, thus giving exaggerated results.





Courtesy of Dr. G.K. Roberts



Further Inconsistences in the Test Procedures and Reported Data from the ATK Workshops.

As I’ve previously posted, the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop at Fort Collins on 6-26-08 has a major credibility issue regarding the 64 grain Gold Dot data. For this workshop, the stated test weapon was a 16” barreled RRA LAR-15. The Workshop reported a velocity of 2575 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot fired from said 16” barrel.

Now, look at the data from the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop at Aurora on 6-24-08. This Workshop reports the velocity of the 64 grain Gold Dot as exactly 2575 fps, when fired from a (Colt) Commando with an 11” barrel. It would be next to impossible for two different barrels with a difference in length of 5” to produce the exact same velocity with the 64 grain Gold Dot. It's obvious that the velocity data for the 64 grain Gold Dot from one or both of the Workshops is false.

Since the Workshops failed to accurately determine/record something as basic as the velocity for the 64 grain Gold Dot, I question the validity of any of the Workshops' reported data for the 64 Grain Dot; especially something as crucial as the penetration depth. An individual who was present at an ATK Workship stated this about the ballistic gel blocks that were used at the ATK Workshop:

"the first gelatin block was calibrated initially at the beginning but the other blocks sat outside until they were shot and were not calibrated or the temp checked prior to use. I'm fairly certain that they were warmer than they should have been and without calibration the data was suspect, at best."



More Fabricated Data from the ATK Wound Ballistic Workshop


The ATK Wound Ballistic Workshops continue to demonstrate their lack of credibility. In their latest report entitled “Butte – Montana 5-27-09” they include more fabricated data for the Speer 64 grain Gold Dot.

Speer advertises a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot load when fired from a 24” barrel. During my own chronographing of the 64 grain Gold Dot load, I obtained a muzzle velocity of 2912 fps when fired from a 24” Krieger barreled AR-15.  

Using a 16” barreled M4, the ATK workshop claims to have obtained a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps for the 64 grain Gold Dot load. Using a barrel that is 8 INCHES SHORTER, the ATK workshop claims to have obtained the exact same muzzle velocity as advertised from a 24” barrel. It’s quite obvious that the ATK workshop never even chronographed the 64 grain Gold Dot load and then falsified their report using the advertised muzzle velocity. The irresponsible practices of the ATK workshops and their failures to adhere to established protocols for terminal ballistic testing renders all of their data suspect.








….
Link Posted: 1/17/2016 3:40:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2016 3:40:52 PM EDT by Molon]
More comparative data . . .



Federal 62 Grain Fusion vs Federal 62 Grain Fusion MSR vs Speer LE 62 Grain Gold Dot






The muzzle velocities shown in the tables below were obtained back-to-back during the same chronograph session using recent lots of all three of the Fusion/Gold Dot loads chrongographed.

Atmospheric Conditions

Temperature:  73 degrees F (plus or minus one degree)
Barometric Pressure:  29.68 inches of Hg
Humidity:  62%
Altitude:  950 feet above sea level  



Muzzle velocities from a 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7” twist.







Muzzle velocities from a 14.5 Noveske N4 light barrel with a NATO chamber, chrome lining and a 1:7’ twist.






10-shot groups were fired from one of my precision AR-15s with a Lothar-Walther barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber and a 1:8” twist.  The groups were fired from the bench at a distance of 100 yards with the same sight settings on the scope for each of the three groups.






















....
Link Posted: 1/17/2016 8:15:35 PM EDT
Excellent work Molon.
Link Posted: 1/18/2016 12:24:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2016 6:56:52 PM EDT by urbankaos04]
This is great info, as I was wondering how this ammo fared against both flavors of Fusion ammo.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 1:46:02 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BigHunt:
Excellent work Molon.
View Quote



Muchas gracias.


...
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:08:34 AM EDT
Great information there!

Thank you again for the good work.

The issues with ATK's testing is new to me and very good to know.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 2:09:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/20/2016 2:09:49 AM EDT by Saddlerocker]
You had already reviewed this ammo a while ago correct?
Did you just add the velocity inconsistency information?

Also, It has always been said that the Gold Dot will expand down to a rather low velocity (what was it? 1200fps or something?)
Is it safe to assume that information may be suspect?

Thanks for the effort as always.
Link Posted: 1/20/2016 5:07:40 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Saddlerocker:

You had already reviewed this ammo a while ago correct?
Did you just add the velocity inconsistency information?

View Quote



I'm always adding/expanding.


...
Link Posted: 1/24/2016 1:30:02 PM EDT




....
Link Posted: 3/5/2016 12:48:28 PM EDT
.








Left to right:  1.  62 grain Fusion,  2.  62 grain Gold Dot,  3.  64 grain Gold Dot,  4.  75 grain Gold Dot


...
Link Posted: 3/7/2016 9:18:16 PM EDT
Im a newb with barrier blind loads. Kinda would like to know how to decipher this data. Basically do I get two thumbs up to stock up on these or should I look at something else for the price. Dont mean to hijack but I'm specifically looking at this round on sale right now. $10 for 20. I'm off to compare this price to other vendors!
Link Posted: 3/7/2016 10:31:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JUDGED12carried6:
Im a newb with barrier blind loads. Kinda would like to know how to decipher this data. Basically do I get two thumbs up to stock up on these or should I look at something else for the price. Dont mean to hijack but I'm specifically looking at this round on sale right now. $10 for 20. I'm off to compare this price to other vendors!
View Quote



Look at it this way. After hitting through thick automotive safety glass, it expanded to twice it's normal size and went through 16 inches of gel. There are lots of rounds that struggle to even make it 16 inches BEFORE having to go through glass.

For the price and performance I don't think you will be able to do much better.
Link Posted: 3/14/2016 2:14:39 PM EDT
Molon, would you go with the 75 gr GDSP over the 64 gr GDSP in a 1:7 twist SBR for $5 more/box or is the 64 gr GTG?

Also, is this a better barrier round than it is HD round?  I'm newer to ammo specifics but I understand these are good LE/SD rounds but not HD like TAP because of the over penetration.

Thanks for all of your ammo testing information!
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 12:35:30 PM EDT
Have you ever done a test on the 55 grain Gold Dots?
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 12:50:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Spooky130:

Have you ever done a test on the 55 grain Gold Dots?

View Quote



I have not.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 12:56:47 PM EDT
Thank you once again for your very detailed analysis.
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 1:21:17 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Molon, would you go with the 75 gr GDSP over the 64 gr GDSP in a 1:7 twist SBR for $5 more/box or is the 64 gr GTG?


View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Molon, would you go with the 75 gr GDSP over the 64 gr GDSP in a 1:7 twist SBR for $5 more/box or is the 64 gr GTG?





The 64 grain Gold Dot is certainly GTG.  I haven't tested the 75 grain Gold Dot yet.








Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Also, is this a better barrier round than it is HD round?  I'm newer to ammo specifics but I understand these are good LE/SD rounds but not HD like TAP because of the over penetration.







The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration

From Dr. G.K. Roberts



Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.




....
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 2:46:05 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:



The 64 grain Gold Dot is certainly GTG.  I haven't tested the 75 grain Gold Dot yet.












The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration

From Dr. G.K. Roberts



Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.




....
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Molon, would you go with the 75 gr GDSP over the 64 gr GDSP in a 1:7 twist SBR for $5 more/box or is the 64 gr GTG?





The 64 grain Gold Dot is certainly GTG.  I haven't tested the 75 grain Gold Dot yet.








Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Also, is this a better barrier round than it is HD round?  I'm newer to ammo specifics but I understand these are good LE/SD rounds but not HD like TAP because of the over penetration.







The Presumptive Hazards of Over-Penetration

From Dr. G.K. Roberts



Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.




....

Thanks, Molon!  Disregard my IM .  So I'm reading this right, I shouldn't take worry as much about a projectile missing, in an HD scenario, and going through a wall and into a family member?  Sorry to confirm, that just seems different than what I've read other places.  Thanks again!
Link Posted: 3/15/2016 3:04:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2016 3:28:07 PM EDT by Molon]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Thanks, Molon!  Disregard my IM .  So I'm reading this right, I shouldn't take worry as much about a projectile missing, in an HD scenario, and going through a wall and into a family member?  Sorry to confirm, that just seems different than what I've read other places.  Thanks again!

View Quote



Here's some actual data on the subject matter.   Look at the penetration of one of the top performing 223 Remington barrier blind loads.








Now compare that to one of the top performing duty/self-defense loads in 9mm Parabellum.











Not a whole lot of difference in penetration after a barrier is there?





The next pic is from Dr. G.K. Roberts and shows the penetration of various platforms after having passed through an interior wall.  (The hollow points of the hand-gun loads plugged and behaved similar to FMJ rounds.)







....

Link Posted: 3/16/2016 4:44:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Molon:



Here's some actual data on the subject matter.   Look at the penetration of one of the top performing 223 Remington barrier blind loads.



https://app.box.com/shared/static/otxm5w0webpu7x98tw1tg4ym2cin7dvu.jpg




Now compare that to one of the top performing duty/self-defense loads in 9mm Parabellum.





https://app.box.com/shared/static/5pofcrpgu3k76xak1cv4c0665zvq1ttl.jpg





Not a whole lot of difference in penetration after a barrier is there?





The next pic is from Dr. G.K. Roberts and shows the penetration of various platforms after having passed through an interior wall.  (The hollow points of the hand-gun loads plugged and behaved similar to FMJ rounds.)



https://app.box.com/shared/static/zh2fk6nh50.jpg



....

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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By smitty_007:


Thanks, Molon!  Disregard my IM .  So I'm reading this right, I shouldn't take worry as much about a projectile missing, in an HD scenario, and going through a wall and into a family member?  Sorry to confirm, that just seems different than what I've read other places.  Thanks again!




Here's some actual data on the subject matter.   Look at the penetration of one of the top performing 223 Remington barrier blind loads.



https://app.box.com/shared/static/otxm5w0webpu7x98tw1tg4ym2cin7dvu.jpg




Now compare that to one of the top performing duty/self-defense loads in 9mm Parabellum.





https://app.box.com/shared/static/5pofcrpgu3k76xak1cv4c0665zvq1ttl.jpg





Not a whole lot of difference in penetration after a barrier is there?





The next pic is from Dr. G.K. Roberts and shows the penetration of various platforms after having passed through an interior wall.  (The hollow points of the hand-gun loads plugged and behaved similar to FMJ rounds.)



https://app.box.com/shared/static/zh2fk6nh50.jpg



....



Thanks again, Molon.  I'll quit stressing about it and pick up some 64gr GD!
Link Posted: 3/17/2016 3:24:26 PM EDT
I just ordered more of the 64GR Gold Dots from PSA. Based on Molon and Doc Roberts I think this is one of the best SD rounds out there and the price seems to be excellent.  The real no-brainer?

I won't look back and wish I had ordered while it was on sale and in stock! YMMV...
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 1:19:30 AM EDT
For the cost of the 64gr gold dot does it gives significant performance over the regular xm193? I want to stock up on it while it's on sale but can't justify the cost if xm193 does the same thing.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 7:59:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/18/2016 8:03:10 AM EDT by FlatDarkEarf]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Standpipe:
For the cost of the 64gr gold dot does it gives significant performance over the regular xm193? I want to stock up on it while it's on sale but can't justify the cost if xm193 does the same thing.
View Quote


Yes.

M193 has several drawbacks. One is the actual shape of the wound profile - it is almost like a lollipop. A large wound where it fragments, and then the tip of the bullet penetrates further. The tip is only .22 caliber and wounds like a 22lr - not too impressive. It would be pretty terrible if you had to shoot someone at an odd angle and the only part penetrating to the vitals is a .22 slug.

Next, the fragmentation itself can be delayed. This is known as fleet yaw. The bullet can fragment almost immediately, or it can fragment after several inches of penetration after it has passed the vital organs. This happens about 25% of the time and also results in a 22lr-like wound.

Some people's recommendation is to shoot controlled pairs. While this increases the probability of one round fragmenting early, it still is imperfect:

When passing through a barrier, the round may fragment prematurely. This results in a wide, but shallow wound that fails to meet 12" penetration standards. Another possibility is that the projectile may stay together, but slow below the fragmentation velocity in the barrier.

A proper soft point will have none of these deficits. It will reliably expand, even through barriers. They offer consistent penetration and expansion, and temporary cavitation effects. They also offer much more flexibility at long ranges or through shorter barrels. Since the projectile retains all of its weight, it will have more momentum and continue temporary cavity damage deeper into the target. At the end of the wound channel, the projectile has expanded to ~.50", much better than m193's .22"

For SHTF purposes, against unobstructed targets and using controlled pairs, m193 is not a bad round to stock. It is generally accurate enough, and is very affordable.

For home defense, it's a good idea to get these. Even if you only buy 60 rounds, shoot 30 to ensure they work in your rifle, and load up the other 30 in a 'home defense mag.' I started out with just one magazine and buy more here and there. I think I'm up to 1000 rounds now.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 10:10:18 AM EDT
I swear Molon need's his own subform!

Link Posted: 3/18/2016 12:47:11 PM EDT
For anyone interested PSA still has the 64gr Gold Dots for $9.99 box. They must have stocked up. I got mine so I thought I would let others know it's not too late.

I will buy again in the future if they run the same sale.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 5:45:45 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:
For anyone interested PSA still has the 64gr Gold Dots for $9.99 box. They must have stocked up. I got mine so I thought I would let others know it's not too late.

I will buy again in the future if they run the same sale.
View Quote

I am on the fence about ordering another 300 rounds for this very reason. Too good to pass up.
Link Posted: 3/18/2016 7:29:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GTRider245:

I am on the fence about ordering another 300 rounds for this very reason. Too good to pass up.
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Originally Posted By GTRider245:
Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:
For anyone interested PSA still has the 64gr Gold Dots for $9.99 box. They must have stocked up. I got mine so I thought I would let others know it's not too late.

I will buy again in the future if they run the same sale.

I am on the fence about ordering another 300 rounds for this very reason. Too good to pass up.


I was on the fence also but ordered more last night. I will order more again later if I catch them on sale again.
Link Posted: 3/19/2016 1:31:02 PM EDT
Well crap!! It appears I clicked on the 55gr Gold Dots instead of the 64 gr. My shipping notice shows and order history is showing I ordered the 55gr Gold Dot on the order from thursday. So, I am asking those of you who are more ammo savy than me: Would you pay the return shipping to send back the 55 gr and order the 64 or would you keep them? I just can not believe it took me until now to realize what I have done!!!
Link Posted: 3/19/2016 2:27:15 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By SafetyFirst:
Well crap!! It appears I clicked on the 55gr Gold Dots instead of the 64 gr. My shipping notice shows and order history is showing I ordered the 55gr Gold Dot on the order from thursday. So, I am asking those of you who are more ammo savy than me: Would you pay the return shipping to send back the 55 gr and order the 64 or would you keep them? I just can not believe it took me until now to realize what I have done!!!
View Quote

Start a second stash? I've bought both over the years. The only ones I'm not thrilled about are the 75gr version.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 7:38:50 PM EDT
Okay, can someone enlighten me on the 5.56 64 gr vs. .223 64 gr?  I know the difference between 5.56 & .223...what I mean is, all I can seem to find is the 24448 .223 load...does anyone know where you can pick up the 5.56 64 gr GDSP load or if there is any reason to go with the 5.56 load in this case?  I generally stick to purchasing 5.56 loads over .223, which is why I'm asking.

Also, I believe the archived thread on this ammo showed a picture with the brass case being the .223 and the nickel case being the 5.56, but the picture of the .223 on PSA shows a nickel cased .223 round.

Thanks for helping me clear this up in my confused brain!
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:13:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By smitty_007:
Okay, can someone enlighten me on the 5.56 64 gr vs. .223 64 gr?  I know the difference between 5.56 & .223...what I mean is, all I can seem to find is the 24448 .223 load...does anyone know where you can pick up the 5.56 64 gr GDSP load or if there is any reason to go with the 5.56 load in this case?  I generally stick to purchasing 5.56 loads over .223, which is why I'm asking.

Also, I believe the archived thread on this ammo showed a picture with the brass case being the .223 and the nickel case being the 5.56, but the picture of the .223 on PSA shows a nickel cased .223 round.

Thanks for helping me clear this up in my confused brain!
View Quote

The .223 is now nickel cased as well. The .223 I bought a few years ago has brass cases.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:17:31 PM EDT
I've read that Speer dropped the 5.56mm Gold Dots and only offer .223 now.
Too many dumb asses trying to run 5.56mm ammo in their .223 chambered low end garbage guns.
No proof, just what I've heard.
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:19:26 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GTRider245:

The .223 is now nickel cased as well. The .223 I bought a few years ago has brass cases.
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Originally Posted By GTRider245:
Originally Posted By smitty_007:
Okay, can someone enlighten me on the 5.56 64 gr vs. .223 64 gr?  I know the difference between 5.56 & .223...what I mean is, all I can seem to find is the 24448 .223 load...does anyone know where you can pick up the 5.56 64 gr GDSP load or if there is any reason to go with the 5.56 load in this case?  I generally stick to purchasing 5.56 loads over .223, which is why I'm asking.

Also, I believe the archived thread on this ammo showed a picture with the brass case being the .223 and the nickel case being the 5.56, but the picture of the .223 on PSA shows a nickel cased .223 round.

Thanks for helping me clear this up in my confused brain!

The .223 is now nickel cased as well. The .223 I bought a few years ago has brass cases.


well that was easy...thanks!
Link Posted: 3/21/2016 8:20:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Unreconstructed:
I've read that Speer dropped the 5.56mm Gold Dots and only offer .223 now.
Too many dumb asses trying to run 5.56mm ammo in their .223 chambered low end garbage guns.
No proof, just what I've heard.
View Quote


makes sense...can anyone confirm?  Just want to make sure before I buy some of the .223...if there is 5.56 64 gr still available I might go that route.
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 10:23:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2016 10:28:23 PM EDT by tschlemm]
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Originally Posted By smitty_007:


makes sense...can anyone confirm?  Just want to make sure before I buy some of the .223...if there is 5.56 64 gr still available I might go that route.
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Originally Posted By smitty_007:
Originally Posted By Unreconstructed:
I've read that Speer dropped the 5.56mm Gold Dots and only offer .223 now.
Too many dumb asses trying to run 5.56mm ammo in their .223 chambered low end garbage guns.
No proof, just what I've heard.


makes sense...can anyone confirm?  Just want to make sure before I buy some of the .223...if there is 5.56 64 gr still available I might go that route.


Read it in the AR15 archives:

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=585619

The new .223 Speer 75gr GDSP has nickel plated brass.
Link Posted: 3/22/2016 10:54:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/22/2016 10:56:11 PM EDT by Molon]
>  The 223 Remington 64 grain Gold Dot "ICE" load (24447) has plain brass cases.


>  The 223 Remington 64 grain Gold Dot (24448) originally had plain brass cases, but is now loaded in nickel-plated brass cases.


>  The 5.56mm 64 grain Gold Dot (24456) was loaded in nickel-plated brass cases.



....
Link Posted: 4/1/2016 6:41:38 PM EDT
How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?
Link Posted: 4/3/2016 1:59:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2016 1:59:33 PM EDT by Molon]
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Originally Posted By Standpipe:

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?

View Quote



The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....

Link Posted: 4/3/2016 4:40:48 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Molon:



The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....

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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Standpipe:

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?




The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....



Thank you, again I think you are saving lives and we are all in your debt.
Link Posted: 4/3/2016 4:45:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/3/2016 4:59:25 PM EDT by Molon]
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Originally Posted By threefeathers:


Thank you, again I think you are saving lives and we are all in your debt.

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Originally Posted By threefeathers:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Standpipe:

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?




The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....



Thank you, again I think you are saving lives and we are all in your debt.





Thank the terminal ballistic experts such as Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. G.K. Roberts and Special Agent Urey W. Patrick for their terminal ballistic testing and those ammunition/bullet manufactures that are interested in improving duty/self-defense loads.


..
Link Posted: 4/4/2016 10:25:42 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Molon:




Thank the terminal ballistic experts such as Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. G.K. Roberts and Special Agent Urey W. Patrick for their terminal ballistic testing and those ammunition/bullet manufactures that are interested in improving duty/self-defense loads.


..
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Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By threefeathers:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Standpipe:

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?




The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....



Thank you, again I think you are saving lives and we are all in your debt.





Thank the terminal ballistic experts such as Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. G.K. Roberts and Special Agent Urey W. Patrick for their terminal ballistic testing and those ammunition/bullet manufactures that are interested in improving duty/self-defense loads.


..


And now we can add modesty to your list of attributes...
The service you provide by way your reviews cannot be overstated. Its altogether possible/probable that what you do could save someones life.  Maybe already has...who knows.
There is NOBODY out there, that I'm aware of, that does what you do in the manner that you do it.
We don't have easy access to those gentlemen you listed, we have only you.
And oh how lucky we are for that.



Link Posted: 4/17/2016 10:59:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Blessed1:


And now we can add modesty to your list of attributes...
The service you provide by way your reviews cannot be overstated. Its altogether possible/probable that what you do could save someones life.  Maybe already has...who knows.
There is NOBODY out there, that I'm aware of, that does what you do in the manner that you do it.
We don't have easy access to those gentlemen you listed, we have only you.
And oh how lucky we are for that.



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Originally Posted By Blessed1:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By threefeathers:
Originally Posted By Molon:
Originally Posted By Standpipe:

How does the 64gr Gold Dot compare to the imi 77gr razor core? i.e. which on is better?




The IMI 77 grain Razor Core is loaded with the standard Sierra 77 grain MatchKing.  .  If you want a fragmenting projectile, the Hornady 75 grain T2, the Nosler 77 grain CC and the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing all offer superior terminal ballistics compared to the standard 77 grain MatchKing.

There are a plethora of acceptable blind-to-barriers projectiles now available for the 5.56mm/223 Remington.  A short list of those projectiles includes the Speer 62 grain TBBC, the Nosler 64 grain BSB, the Black Hills proprietary 50 grain TSX, the Speer 62 grain and 64 grain Gold Dots and the Hornady 55 grain GMX.



....



Thank you, again I think you are saving lives and we are all in your debt.





Thank the terminal ballistic experts such as Dr. Martin Fackler, Dr. G.K. Roberts and Special Agent Urey W. Patrick for their terminal ballistic testing and those ammunition/bullet manufactures that are interested in improving duty/self-defense loads.


..


And now we can add modesty to your list of attributes...
The service you provide by way your reviews cannot be overstated. Its altogether possible/probable that what you do could save someones life.  Maybe already has...who knows.
There is NOBODY out there, that I'm aware of, that does what you do in the manner that you do it.
We don't have easy access to those gentlemen you listed, we have only you.
And oh how lucky we are for that.





And all the ARfcom congregation said ........ "AMEN!"
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 1:10:56 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By tschlemm:

The new .223 Speer 75gr GDSP has nickel plated brass.

View Quote



Indeed.


...
Link Posted: 6/1/2016 2:08:11 AM EDT
I have been stocking up on the gold dot because of this thread.

On a side note, anyone know why the BC is so different between the MSR (.31) and GD (.27)? Looks like a nearly identical bullet.
Link Posted: 6/6/2016 2:16:30 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By csrevenant:
I have been stocking up on the gold dot because of this thread.

On a side note, anyone know why the BC is so different between the MSR (.31) and GD (.27)? Looks like a nearly identical bullet.
View Quote


That's a good question.  What is the source for these B.C. Numbers? I have a very hard time believing that MSR would have that high of number. If anything, I would have guessed it to be slighty lower than the Gold Dot. Assuming you are referring to the 64gr Gold Dot and the 62 gr Fusion?
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 12:38:38 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Dieselman:


That's a good question.  What is the source for these B.C. Numbers? I have a very hard time believing that MSR would have that high of number. If anything, I would have guessed it to be slighty lower than the Gold Dot. Assuming you are referring to the 64gr Gold Dot and the 62 gr Fusion?
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Originally Posted By Dieselman:
Originally Posted By csrevenant:
I have been stocking up on the gold dot because of this thread.

On a side note, anyone know why the BC is so different between the MSR (.31) and GD (.27)? Looks like a nearly identical bullet.


That's a good question.  What is the source for these B.C. Numbers? I have a very hard time believing that MSR would have that high of number. If anything, I would have guessed it to be slighty lower than the Gold Dot. Assuming you are referring to the 64gr Gold Dot and the 62 gr Fusion?


The gold dot took a bit of digging, I cant track it back to a particularly reliable source. The fusion BC comes from federal directly. I am looking at outputs from JBM for m193, fusion, and gold dot, and the BC for fusion seems...outlandish. Considering construction and weight, it doesn't seem possible, especially given federals "fudging" of ballistic data.
Link Posted: 6/15/2016 7:57:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/15/2016 8:01:45 PM EDT by brasidas]
I think the 0.27 bc number for the 64gr gold dot comes from here:

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24448

Vista Outdoor is the entity that owns Federal, Alliant, Hoppe's, Speer, Weaver, Bushnell, Camelbak, etc., etc.

The 0.31 bc for the Fusion is here:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=1032
Link Posted: 6/16/2016 11:52:02 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By brasidas:
I think the 0.27 bc number for the 64gr gold dot comes from here:

http://www.le.vistaoutdoor.com/ammunition/speer/rifle/details.aspx?id=24448

Vista Outdoor is the entity that owns Federal, Alliant, Hoppe's, Speer, Weaver, Bushnell, Camelbak, etc., etc.

The 0.31 bc for the Fusion is here:

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/rifle.aspx?id=1032
View Quote


That sounds familiar. I still cant help but think fusions BC is wildly inaccurate. When compared to some other bonded 62-64 gr bullets with similar construction, they all have a BC around .27.
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 1:34:20 PM EDT
Is the 64 gr gold dot still available from palmetto state armory?  It does not show up when I select 223 and 5.56.  If I search "gold dot 223", it shows up "in stock".
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 1:49:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/17/2016 1:52:45 PM EDT by lostintejas]
Link Posted: 6/17/2016 1:51:12 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By WI_Bill:
Is the 64 gr gold dot still available from palmetto state armory?  It does not show up when I select 223 and 5.56.  If I search "gold dot 223", it shows up "in stock".
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Yes its still in stock as of this post


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