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Posted: 9/16/2004 11:38:21 AM EST
First off, this NOT a flame and I ask that you not turn it into a flame war. There is something in the behavior of some of our bro’s here that is plain and simply outside my comprehension range. I am sincerely seeking answers.

I cannot, for the life of me, understand the absolute fixation some guys have with Colt.

One often hears the claim that colts are somehow better and more reliable than the other makes. I happen to know as a fact of personal experience that simply is not so. They’re certainly first tier quality but, vastly superior to all the others? Come on. So that argument strikes me not as a reason, but a justification.

I certainly understand brand loyalty. I have a total of 220,000 combined miles on two Expeditions and can find no good reason not to buy a third when this one won’t go any further. But Ford, unlike Colt, acts like they want my business. I don’t have to know somebody who knows somebody who knows somebody just to buy one. And Ford doesn’t even think about demanding 30% more out of me than I would have to pay for an equivalent Chevy. And they don’t join in campaigns to take away my right to drive the vehicle of my choice.

As a matter of public record, the management at Colt is a bunch of traitors to the civilian customer base (hereinafter referred to as “us”). They’re so hopelessly inept that they managed to lose their major defense contract to a foreign company. How on earth those workers at Colt can go on building such fine merchandise while they are being led by such buffoonish management completely escapes me.

And yet, week after week, we see posts of somebody or another desperately searching for some model of Colt; just for the privilege of putting up with ridiculous inconveniences such as goofy take down pin sizes, non-standard FCG pins, and sear blocks. And for the privilege of giving their money to a company which openly despises them.

Why? Is it the name? Surely it’s obvious to all concerned that at this historical point, Colt management has frittered away any technological and/or production advantage they may ever have held. Is it some sort of historical connection? How can that be? Colt didn’t even have the innovative drive to come up with the AR-15. They bought the design from a company a good deal more courageous than themselves. What are the “If it’s not a Colt it’s a copy.” folks thinking, for crying out loud? Do some people just like paying for abuse?

I certainly don’t hold myself out as a mental health professional. Nevertheless, the behavior of these people who just absolutely have to have a colt at any cost strikes me as perfectly reminiscent of the guy we all knew in high school who just kept supplicating himself before the pretty girl who could care less if he lived or died. No matter how many times she explained to the poor schmuck that, although she was willing to accept his presents, he would never mean any more to her than a refried dog turd, he just couldn’t get it and never quit trying.

I find this whole thing utterly baffling. I’m just not smart enough to figure this out. So, somebody help me out here. Explain this to me.

Again; flames are NOT welcome. If you feel you must flame, please take it somewhere else.

SD
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:42:21 AM EST
In how many words?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:43:08 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 11:44:02 AM EST by wedge1082]
I hate Ford.

eta - they have never seemed to want my business.

eta - Oh yeah. The pony looks way better than the snake.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:52:33 AM EST
Some guys like what they like, some guys are idiots, some guys just want to be cool. You are right, Colt is no better than the others and not as good as some of the others. I think Bushmaster is a better rifle, you may think RRA is a better rifle. Point is, whatever floats your boat dude.

Oh and Ford? Come on guy. You take a Ford to town, you rake a Chevy to work. My Silverado 1500 against your Expedition in the mud anytime baby!!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:53:45 AM EST
IBTL.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:54:31 AM EST
buy GM!

its cause of the colt name or/and "major military distributor" concept

it being' the most superior in quality', well that is just someting that those who wnat one tell themselves to further the spirit of getting/owning one

hey if some folks want one, get one cause its thier choice, like it was colt's choice not to sell them to citizens

save yoursleves the trouble, buy BUSHMASTER
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:57:44 AM EST
Maybe it's the pony. Every kid wanted a pony. Most of us grew out of that.

Maybe it's the funky pin sizes. I want my rifle to have pins different from everybody else.

Maybe it's the inflated price. I paid $300 more for my Colt so it must be better.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 11:58:29 AM EST
No accounting for it. IMHO civilian colts are less desirable. Large pin lowers and sear blocks jump right to mind as well as politically correct prebans with the bayonet lug shaved just before the 94 ban to placaite the anit-gun goofballs. That is why the only colt I will ever own will have a naughty switch on it... if ever.

IPSC_GUY
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:00:19 PM EST
It isn't a matter of brand loyalty to me as much as simply wanting the BEST.

Ask any high profile training operation on there opinion of reliability!

As far as there shitty customer service..... It's kinda like a hot chick with a bad personality, I'll still fuck her.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:10:18 PM EST
What is really odd is that the fixation with Colt and Colt has NEVER really cared about the civilian market. They have always cared about the military since the days of Sam Colt. Not that Colt has any problems but a Bushmaster, RRA, and a few others are as good if not BETTER since they are more mil. spec. . You don't have to worry about large pin, off set pin, lagre hole upper, small hole upper with all the others. You only have to worry about that stuff with Colt because they have BOWED DOWN. But Colt is nestalgic(sp) to people and I can understand that. But paying more for a name when you get the same if not better quality with another company. But like said earlier to each thier own. Get what makes you happy!!
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:11:29 PM EST
They're the name most associated with AR-15's. The official term is "brand differentiation". People perceive Colt as having a higher quality because until fairly recently when FN and Beretta took over the contracts, Colt had been the sole supplier of military firearms with the M16 and 1911. People stick to what they know. They may shot a Colt in the military so now they want to shoot a Colt again. Their name is instantly recognizable with firearms because of their long history and reputation. Or, they heard that Colt makes AR's or want an "authentic" AR (whatever that means), saw one that they liked, and now they want it. It's not going to last long. Colt's market share is far below that of Bushmaster, with BM I believe holding over 40% of the AR-15 market and Colt only around 20%.
I wouldn't be surprised if in a couple of years, they stopped selling to consumers altogether and focused solely on law enforcement and military contracts. About the only Colt firearm I'd even consider buying at this point is a Python Elite but those are guns they actually care about since they are hand assembled at their custom shop. Their 1911's are overpriced for what they offer.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:20:36 PM EST
And Bushmaster fans are any less zealous and misguided?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:30:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
And Bushmaster fans are any less zealous and misguided?



Perhaps that applies to any of us that fixate on a single brand...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:36:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 12:38:49 PM EST by Vinh]
I think timeless nailed it.

Well-respected instructors that have seen hundreds, if not thousands of rifles pass through their classes have deemed Colt to have the least number of issues overall. I believe the Tactical Forums community is very influential in this regard. Furthermore, Colt's quality control seems to prioritize reliability. Rock River Arms advocates seem to associate nice finish and tight fit with quality, but I don't know if that counts for much in the end.

Personally, I plan to own three carbines. My first will be an experimental AR cobbled together with decent parts (Bushmaster, LMT, etc). I will also be simultaneously building a low-end RRA control and plan to eventually acquire a Colt as a high-end control. The only reason I didn't just buy a Colt and be done with it is because I wanted the fancy stuff and did not want to retrofit a new rifle. It will be interesting to see how they compare.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:50:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By SailorDude:
Someone please explain colt fans



They live in Indianapolis and wear blue and white...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:54:17 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:54:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:03:47 PM EST by redfisher]
I Some compare it to buying a set of Ping golf clubs versus a set of Golfsmiths (build-them-yourself clubs).
the Real Deal vs. Knock-offs

Knock offs work, but the Pings do it in style, and a little more accurately.

I actually own a Bushmaster- albeit barely resembling its original self, and a new off the rack Colt LE

............and I really like both. They are different from one another, but honestly, one's not 'better' than the other.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 12:58:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By SailorDude:
I cannot, for the life of me, understand the absolute fixation some guys have with Colt.



1) Well for people with little or no experience with other brands, they usually go name-brand. And when you pay big bucks for name-brand, you sure don't want to admit you made a mistake, so you defend it to the end. No different for guns than it is for any other consumer product.

2) For others with experience, they may have had some bad luck with some other product, then go with the name brand, and then even though they have years of experience, they only have it with one brand, and are thus in back group 1 above.

For example 25 years I ago I bought a AMT Hardballer and my friend bought a Colt 1911. As you know, the AMT was a Jam-O-Matic and my friend repeated to me often "shoulda bought a Colt". So I sold the AMT and bought a Colt. And for years it was flawless, I was in category 2. The reason I am not in Category 1 now (as category 2 leads to category 1) is I continued to look for something better than Colt 1911 - Kimber, SA, Para, wahtever. So know I have a SA as my primary 1911.

I have loyalty only to what works right now. Not last year or next year.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:01:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I compare it to buying a set of Ping golf clubs versus a set of Golfsmiths (build-them-yourself clubs).
the Real Deal vs. Knock-offs

Knock offs work, but the Pings do it in style, and a little more accurately



So you are saying a colt is more accurate than any OTHER ARs? I highly doubt it.

Im not a colt fan for a variety of reasons, they are not civy friendly, they purposely redesigned their ARs to not allow for mainstream parts to fit, only COLT parts, which are rediculously high priced. And the paying hundreds of dollars for a COLT name is not worth it IMO. Ill stick to my Franken ARs.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:03:33 PM EST
Its not brand loyalty,..its brand snobbery.

Personally, I avoid all clot products; 1911's, AR's, Woodsmen, ect...
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:04:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
"major military distributor"



I see this as a contributing factor. Colt makes good guns, but they aren't without flaws, like you'd be led to believe. I've talked to battle experienced ex-military people and some swear by their Colts and an equal number would rather have something other than a Colt.

I also wonder about RRA. Would people be justifying the overly tight lower receivers and other flaws they have put out over the years if they didn't have the big .gov contract they recently won?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:07:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By FMD:

Originally Posted By SailorDude:
Someone please explain colt fans



They live in Indianapolis and wear blue and white...

They stole the Colts from Baltimore;or maybe Baltimore let them go as Colt Firearms is letting all of us out to dry.This is the military-industrial complex Ike warned us about(about the same time Colt got the contract).
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:08:07 PM EST

Back in the 1980s when Jeff Cooper was running his carbine classes he put out the warning that brands other than Colt were failing, so I bought Colt. Read reviews from classes today and Colt still does better than the others.

That said, I hate the stupid design changes Colt pulls and their attitude is more appropriate for an Iraqi dictator then an American company. I think any company that treats American citizens badly, as they do, should not be permited any government contracts. They even lost some contracts to FN, so there are issues going against the Colt.

The bottom line today is the Colt line is outdated. The M4 is outdated and no longer the best AR. The other AR makers that saddle us with other than 1/7" barrel twists will not get my business for complete rifles either. They are too far behind the times.

I think Lewis Machine Tool owns them all right now. That will be my next AR, someday, because it's high $$$. Until then I will try to update my Colts the best I can.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:10:09 PM EST
There's a couple a things Colt does that no one else does.
If you're gonna spend $900.00 anyway, what's another $300.00 when you factor the xtra reliability and resale value?
Everything else is like a six cylinder Cadillac!

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:12:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
And Bushmaster fans are any less zealous and misguided?



+1
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:18:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Va_Dinger:

Originally Posted By Bradd_D:
And Bushmaster fans are any less zealous and misguided?



+1



+2
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:26:27 PM EST
I think Colt’s quality is first rate. I have never had any major problems with their product. That said, I have also had the same experience with a good number of Bushmaster rifles.

Talking to folks who shoot these rifles at more than tin cans in the mud seems to show a lot of favor for the Colt product. They work and work well. A lot of guns do. I think Colt is one of the best though and I’m willing to spend a bit more of my money on a high quality product.

Anyone who whines about Colt not being “mil-spec’ can stick it in their ear; nothing any of us get is ‘mil-spec,” maybe except for the fortunate few who have an M-16.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:29:35 PM EST
My CP15s seem to run pretty good. Built by Pooby Patent Firearms. Cheap too!
Customer service is great even if it takes a while for him to get the prodution line running and parts in stock. I hear the company owner is quite good looking and smart.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:33:35 PM EST
I Lke Colts.


Good quality, mil spec, reliable and accurate.

There is a reason why the military uses them for the past 40+ years.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:41:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 1:42:47 PM EST by Colt_SBR]
I have Colt, Bushmaster and Rock River Arms AR-15's.

I look around and don't pay the higher prices. I just bought a Colt 9mm L.E.O. carbine.

I'm very happy with my Colt, Bushmaster and Rock River Arms AR's. All of them function perfectly.

If I want to buy a Colt AR-15, I will. If I want to buy a Bushmaster AR-15, I will. If I want to buy a Rock River Arms AR-15, I will. If I want to buy a Ford. Opps, never mind. Owned Fords. Will not buy another.

Does anyone see a trend here?

I can't comment on any other brands because I never owned or shot them.

I always harassed Glock owners until I shot one. Now I own one.

The bottom line is, "Get what you want and shoot the Hell out of it".

Colt_SBR
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 1:59:25 PM EST
Im just glad that i own one. Gun's are like anything else their is good ones and bad one's. I own a Colt but my next will be a RRA or Bushmaster . To be truthfull I don't care what it is when the shit hits the fan. Just as long as it gets me out of the shit.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:04:31 PM EST
Colt is the Harley-Davidson of gun manufacturers. The product's merits don't matter, it's all about image.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:22:20 PM EST
you're paying for the name. colt makes guns that they did not invent. they tried to upgrade the 1911 and fucked that up. the series 80 in one big pile of fuck.

if i wasn't for colt making 1911's and ar's they would have gone the way of the doo doo bird.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:30:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 2:34:28 PM EST by Bradd_D]

Originally Posted By shindawia6:
you're paying for the name. colt makes guns that they did not invent. they tried to upgrade the 1911 and fucked that up. the series 80 in one big pile of fuck.

if i wasn't for colt making 1911's and ar's they would have gone the way of the doo doo bird.



Could the same not be said for most if not all the AR manufacturers?

It's nonsense like this that makes these threads go south. Factual debate is one thing, but random babbling and spreading of internet myth is what gets people so upset.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:43:19 PM EST
Timeless said

..... It's kinda like a hot chick with a bad personality, I'll still fuck her.


Now thats funny

Joe
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:43:48 PM EST
People just can't admit that other makers have succeeded in putting out equally good or better products after they invested years in loving their Pony.


I don't really have much experience with Colts.... and I never will because i refuse to support the company


- BG
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:48:48 PM EST
Well I am going to buy a M$, whatever. If I can get a Colt 6920 cool, if it is 40% more then a bushmaster, not cool. I will get the bushy and spend the rest on something else.

I am really thinkig a FAl to keep the other guys comapney :)

Joe


Oh yea, my bro in law looked at my bushy I have now, in my living room. a couple of uhms and then " well it's not as nice as my colt, but"

all that just from looking
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 2:50:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
People just can't admit that other makers have succeeded in putting out equally good or better products after they invested years in loving their Pony.


I don't really have much experience with Colts.... and I never will because i refuse to support the company


- BG



Here's the reality of what the other makers are putting out...

Pro's thought's on AR's

Tweak's Colt thread

Link Posted: 9/16/2004 3:06:50 PM EST
I have a Bushmaster M4gery and a Colt 1991A1. I couldn't be happier with both. I'm looking to buy a second AR and find myself wanting a Colt. I don't really know why I guess I've just allways been fascinated with Colt. I guess it's because Colt has been the "name brand" AR/M16 since the '60s, though I think some of that has changed in the past decade or so with Bushmaster becoming more and more the industry leader. I've just allways thought it would be cool to have an AR-15 that actually said AR-15 on the side of it. Even though I think if I bought a Colt one would probably be enough for me and I'd look to Bushmaster for all my other AR needs, just because they have alot more reasonable prices and they care alot more about civilian sales than Colt.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 3:10:55 PM EST

Colt is the original; everything else is a copy (except Armalite, but they are not the same company that made the original anymore, so that doesn't count).

That's reason enough for many. (Not for me)
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 3:11:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/16/2004 3:13:41 PM EST by AKM]

Originally Posted By SailorDude:
I find this whole thing utterly baffling. I’m just not smart enough to figure this out. So, somebody help me out here. Explain this to me.SD





You don't own a Colt, do you?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 3:34:03 PM EST
Anything Colt is always more collectable and worth more money than the same thing but not Colt. Whether you like this or not, that's the way it is.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:05:45 PM EST
Colts are so much more reliable,please they are so good all you have to do is see who has the bigger production/market share it aint colt.As far as training facilities that use colt and that should tell us they are the best..Black water uses Bushmaster and thats a pretty rigorous course especially the way some ranges there are under some water and mud after it rains.I hate colt because of their attitude twoard "US" so when they go under and drown because there life preserver that is military contracts breaks they will have nothing to fall back on as they have burnt bridges with most AR consumers.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:08:19 PM EST
I read the Blackwater Boys upgrade the internals on the Bushys.
Could be a rumour.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:24:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By model927:
Colts are so much more reliable,please they are so good all you have to do is see who has the bigger production/market share it aint colt.



I guess that means GM builds a better car than Mercedes then, huh?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:27:34 PM EST
Brad

as a gm employee, thanks I think so :)
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:28:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By Quinn556:
Brad

as a gm employee, thanks I think so :)



Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:29:04 PM EST
There's no way to explain it, that's just the way it is.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:39:50 PM EST

eta - Oh yeah. The pony looks way better than the snake.


Are'nt ponys for little girls? Colt is much like that little girls father.

Little girl (consumer): Daddy, I want a pony!

Father (Colt): No you can't have one.
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:41:53 PM EST

Originally Posted By OFFSHORE:

eta - Oh yeah. The pony looks way better than the snake.


Are'nt ponys for little girls? Colt is much like that little girls father.

Little girl (consumer): Daddy, I want a pony!

Father (Colt): No you can't have one.



Is that the best you can do?
Link Posted: 9/16/2004 4:51:10 PM EST
Why on earth would someone start another of these threads? The last thing we needed was another Colt vs. Bushmaster disaster. This has been done over and over in the past and very little useful information ever comes out of them. Its a complete waste of time.
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