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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/22/2003 6:07:54 AM EDT
a new friend told me a few years ago he bought a rifle from the son's of the guns deceased owner. Their father owned it and he died and the sons sold it to my friend without going thru an ffl. I have always bought guns going thru an ffl. I thought he was required to have it legally transferred using an ffl. Am I right? If I am right, what should he do now, if anything. Thanks. I know this sounds like a legal question but it is so routine I thought it could adequately be addressed here. Again, thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:15:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 6:16:47 AM EDT by faldoc]
In most states no FFL is needed for rifle transfer in a private sale. In California you have to go through a dealer, I believe. In NC you have to have a pistol permit to get a handgun from anyone. Every state has it's own flavour, so be aware.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 6:15:56 AM EDT
Quick basic answer : No, Private sales between residents of same state do not have to go through FFLs (some state laws may differ)
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 7:07:27 AM EDT
I have question that goes along with this. What about paperwork? Besides a bill of sale signed by each person what other paperwork needs to be sent in? The weapon will still be in the previous owners name.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 7:16:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2003 7:20:08 AM EDT by ANGST]
No paper work has to be done or sent anywhere. The way a gun is traced is this. 1) Gun is found somewhere by LE 2) ATF get serial number asks manufacturer who they sold it to. 3) Manufacterer gives ATF the distributers name 4) Distributer gives FFL he sold it to 5) FFL pulls 4473 that has your name/address on it 6) ATF asks you about gun, you tell them you sold it. You may want to keep a bill of sale to remember who you sold it to just in case. As long as you didn't know the buyer was a "prohibeted person" its perfectly legal. No papers needed. Thats pretty much it, your name will always be on that first 4473. Even if you sell it to another FFL. Basically there is no such thing as "getting a gun out of your name"
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 1:42:34 PM EDT
Sure you can get a gun out of your name. Go to the gun shop and for $25 here he will enter the gun in his books and transfer to the new owner thru NICS. GG
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 2:48:02 PM EDT
I didn't know anything about any sale. [:D]
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 3:48:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: Sure you can get a gun out of your name. Go to the gun shop and for $25 here he will enter the gun in his books and transfer to the new owner thru NICS. GG
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NICS does not record make and serial number and is not supposed to keep anything longer then 90 days, If a trace is done on the gun it still will come to your 4473. Only thing going to an ffl does for you is you can tell the atf you sold it to X FFL and he can pull the other guys 4473. Read the process I put above.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 9:30:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ANGST:
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: Sure you can get a gun out of your name. Go to the gun shop and for $25 here he will enter the gun in his books and transfer to the new owner thru NICS. GG
View Quote
NICS does not record make and serial number and is not supposed to keep anything longer then 90 days, If a trace is done on the gun it still will come to your 4473. Only thing going to an ffl does for you is you can tell the atf you sold it to X FFL and he can pull the other guys 4473. Read the process I put above.
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I never said they kept you on file. But when they do your process it will lead to the last buyer first. When the cops run the ser # it will go to the person who it was transfered. GG
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 10:47:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: But when they do your process it will lead to the last buyer first. When the cops run the ser # it will go to the person who it was transfered.
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Not likely, this [b]can[/b] happen but most of the time it will lead to the first retail purchaser.
Link Posted: 8/22/2003 11:56:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BH1:
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: But when they do your process it will lead to the last buyer first. When the cops run the ser # it will go to the person who it was transfered.
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Not likely, this [b]can[/b] happen but most of the time it will lead to the first retail purchaser.
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Yup, most likely it will only pull up the first buyer. Unless the LE really pushes the issue..... they can "try" to find out who it was sold to, but a lot of people do trades at gun shows. But usually, private sales are legal (each state varies).
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 4:08:12 PM EDT
This is what the anti’s call the “gunshow loophole” where, in [b]most[/b] states, private individuals can legally sell to each other without any record checks or documentation or such. IIRC, the seller and buyer must generally both be residents of the same state (I think there may be some exceptions dealing with long guns and contiguous states).
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 4:33:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun Guru: I never said they kept you on file. But when they do your process it will lead to the last buyer first. When the cops run the ser # it will go to the person who it was transfered. GG
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No no no, when the cops run the serial number it goes to the manufacturer, then distributer, then first FFL , then you, then you tell them it went to the second FFL. How do you think the cops know the second FFL would have it. When he "transfers" a gun from one person to another its just a record in the FFL's bound book. That information is not "reported" to the govt. The ATF may inspect the book but they are not suposed to record the information. The only record you transfered the gun to an FFL and he transfered it out is the log in the bound book.It not "reported" to the govt in any way. Only the dealer has the boundbook.
Link Posted: 8/23/2003 5:46:07 PM EDT
[b]That information is not "reported" to the govt. The ATF may inspect the book but they are not suposed to record the information. The only record you transfered the gun to an FFL and he transfered it out is the log in the bound book.It not "reported" to the govt in any way. Only the dealer has the boundbook[/b] Not to hijack this thread, but what about when an FFL ceases business? The bound book becomes the property of the ATF, doesn't it?
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 4:23:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By x_varmits: [b]That information is not "reported" to the govt. The ATF may inspect the book but they are not suposed to record the information. The only record you transfered the gun to an FFL and he transfered it out is the log in the bound book.It not "reported" to the govt in any way. Only the dealer has the boundbook[/b] Not to hijack this thread, but what about when an FFL ceases business? The bound book becomes the property of the ATF, doesn't it?
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Yes it does. The ATF may then record the transaction record, but knowing the govt. I am sure more often then not its just filed away.
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 5:05:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 8:27:19 AM EDT
ATF was, and may still be, involved in something they call Operation Forward Trace. They trace "assault weapons" from manufacturer to the FFL, and then ask for that information. They have been known to scan FFL's bound book and 4473's for those types of rifles. They were known to have spent huge sums on OCR equipment to read these files into their computers. And the NICS check is a registry of GUNOWNERS, don't think it is not.
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 5:40:14 PM EDT
Not that anyone ask,d but I have a bad feeling everytime I buy a (legal)gun;ie-back ground ck. I prefer to buy from individual seller (private sell) At least that way I have a few guns nobody knows about. Tn allows private sells-no paper work. Have aprox 20 guns,only 2 are listed.
Link Posted: 8/24/2003 6:32:26 PM EDT
I don't give a fudge who has my FFL 4473 records. If anybody asks I sold them all last week. I'm really bad with names and faces too.
Link Posted: 8/25/2003 6:01:56 AM EDT
ATF has been craking down on dealers buying used guns, seems there has been a lack of paper trail. Seems some dealer had guns not listed in thier bound book, which is now a violation that has become more important to ATF. BTW, a great number of the "gun show loophole" bills include a rider that makes national registration a requirement (exempt if your state already has a registration scheme).
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