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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/15/2005 4:22:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 4:23:09 PM EDT by Dave_Pendleton]
This probably is more appropriate for the Ammunition, Deployed or Hall of Heroes forum. I don't know which, but it is AR related...

Michael Yon is an observer embedded with a Stryker unit (1st Battalion, 24th Infantry Regiment) in Irag, and writes some of the most compelling accounts of what really goes on over there I've ever read.

You can read all his dispatches here.

What's really interesting (and AR related) are his comments regarding our current service rifle. You can read the article here.

There are others as well. I really hope they've made the right choice by going forward with the development of the 6.8SPC...
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 4:34:06 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:13 PM EDT
Agree 70-75g rd can only do so much. Somthing double that would be better all around. hm .308
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:30:26 PM EDT
Brings back memories.........



max
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:39:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 4:41:33 PM EDT by Dave_Pendleton]
I'm not trying to start any firestorms, either. I didn't know that thread existed.

I'm inclined to believe the guy, his aren't the only accounts I've read about the AR not performing well.

Edit: At the very least I've given Michael Yon a BTT of sorts. People need to read his stuff.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 4:58:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 5:06:45 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 5:34:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
This in a example of a phenomenom called 'selection bias'. You only seek and see data that confirms your predetermined notions.

Like when the media dwells on friendly casualties and ignores victories.

Wow, HM, applying science now? How low can ARFCOM members stoop?

The problem we see is that all of our news is anecdotal, without context and without data for comparison and contrast. I personally would NOT want to face anyone with an M4 pointed at me, even if I had an antiaircraft gun. Body armor does a lot better against larger caliber projectiles too-7.62mm 123gr slugs from an AK can whack a person around pretty good, but standard body armor absorbs and deflects the energy so the bullet doesn't do significant damage.

It all boils down to NOT believing that the entire Ordnance Corps is made up of idiots who want GIs to get killed because they're under armed. There is a LOT of science behind the 5.56mm round and the combination of round and rifle we field right now.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 5:43:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 5:57:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Wow, HM, applying science now? How low can ARFCOM members stoop?


The funny thing is I really am a Scientist and I DID STAY IN A HOLIDAY INN EXPRESS LAST NIGHT!

So are their showers all they say they are? Me scientist too-me computer scientist! (Which means it only takes about 18 months for me to be out of date...)

Unfortunately it's hard to get the real scientific data that the Army collects every day-it's classified and for good reason. If everybody knew what they were learning about details and specifics, that would be A Bad Thing.

I urge everyone to be Critical Thinkers and particularly Critical Readers of News Stories. THINK when you read, please!
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:12:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 6:13:47 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:24:24 PM EDT

All weapons systems can fail to stop with multiple hits.


I doubt anyone's walked away from the business end of a M82, but I'm just being a wise-ass.


When an M-14 does it, it is called a fluke and when an M-4 does it, it is cited as proof of the inadequacy of the 5.56.

Never mind there are far more examples of failures to stop from the 7.62x39 and the AK-47.

This in a example of a phenomenom called 'selection bias'. You only seek and see data that confirms your predetermined notions.



I don't have any bias. I don't like what I'm reading, and I am very fond of my AR. But I've seen the videos, and read numerous accounts. If this is all true, I feel terrible about it. I'm not AR-bashing here. I've got X,000 rounds of XM193 on-hand. I didn't buy it because I thought the AR or the 5.56 is crap.


Most offical AAR's show the 5.56 is performing quite adequately. Initial reports are showing the MK 262 Mod 1 is performing spectacularly.


I haven't heard this. I may only be privvy to the bad news...


Despite this, I think the 6.8 is worthy of study and very possibly adoption but lets not try to exagerate either positively or negatively the true performance of the 5.56 to make its case as this does nothing but risk our credibility.


I don't claim to have the solution. All I know is when our guys pull the trigger, I want the bad guys to drop. If we have to pay for everyone to carry Barrett 6.8's, then so be it. I had similiar feelings just as I was getting out and the military was moving from the .45 to 9mm.

I don't want to argue, but this isn't some CNN hack talking about how the M4 will not kill stray dogs...

With that being said, I think Michaels blog deserves the attention here.

Dave


Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:28:22 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:33:18 PM EDT
Any fellow Marine I have ever talked to that has had the unfortunate opportunity to shoot another human has said that the 5.56mm will kill. I have been lucky not to ever have shot at another man, but if the chance ever comes my way, I will trust my weapon as I trust the Marines who have told me it works.

Semper Fi!
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:39:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 6:41:51 PM EDT by _DR]
One thing that has always baffled me is why our Military doesn't use the 12ga Brenneke Sabot Slug with the 870s they have over there, or with faster shotguns. I have seen one of those rounds penetrate in one car door and out the other. They have amazing and devasting penetrating ability. You could take out an engine block, steering gear, tires, hell even wheels with a semi-auto shotgun while shooting at a moving car, and a Streetsweeper or USAS wuold make swiss cheese of it with the Sabot slug. One squad member with a high cap semi-auto or FA shotgun with these could stand a decent chance of detonating a car bomber, in the absence of a 25mm Bushmaster cannon.

Shooting at a 2000+ lb moving vehicle made of steel, glass and rubber with a 5.56mm rifle is about as far from it's intended use as it could ever be, short of hunting Bull Elephants in India.

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:45:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:49:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Damn, I gots to get me some of those slugs. How much do they cost?



They don't fit in an AR...

Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:52:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/15/2005 6:57:38 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Damn, I gots to get me some of those slugs. How much do they cost?



Not that bad, about $2 ea, in packs of 5.

What is odd, that with all the hoopla about armor piercing this and that, they have not been banned.
They use the same principle as armor piercing 120mm SABOT MBT main gun rounds.
Just not good for home defense, way too much penetration.

Check out this link for the ballistic info.
$12.77/5 at wholesale hunter.







Link Posted: 9/15/2005 6:56:04 PM EDT
Maybe they should just mount shotguns under M16's again and shoot these out of them. Once the car has stopped they can use the 5.56...........
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:14:36 PM EDT
Screw the hague convention and start issuing hollow points.Some time ago I read about a former SEAL who was a contractor and he used a 5.56 round with what was called a blended metal bullet.Hit the guy in the ass cheek and it destroyed internally everything on the left hand side of his body including kidney and stomach damage.Keep 5.56 just make a better bullet and stop playing by the rules the rest of world wants to play by.Its war kill the enemy with the best technology we have...I hate when things like the hague strive to make war less brutal.Its war if you dont want brutality dont go to war....if you do go use every ounce of technology to kill the enemy as quickly as possible...and if it happens to be messy and brutal..well thats war.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:24:51 PM EDT

Originally Posted By pun:
Screw the hague convention and start issuing hollow points.Some time ago I read about a former SEAL who was a contractor and he used a 5.56 round with what was called a blended metal bullet.Hit the guy in the ass cheek and it destroyed internally everything on the left hand side of his body including kidney and stomach damage.Keep 5.56 just make a better bullet and stop playing by the rules the rest of world wants to play by.Its war kill the enemy with the best technology we have...I hate when things like the hague strive to make war less brutal.Its war if you dont want brutality dont go to war....if you do go use every ounce of technology to kill the enemy as quickly as possible...and if it happens to be messy and brutal..well thats war.



Yeah I read about the blended metal stuff a while ago. The problem with it is it is very dependent on temperature to work properly.
Link Posted: 9/15/2005 7:31:50 PM EDT
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