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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 5/22/2003 2:30:19 PM EST
Seems like there was some complaints (by some) of the 5.56 not taking down the enemy to everyones satisfaction in Afganistan. Now we have Iraq as a "done deal" and since its past history, there should be some good battlefield data that tells the story. Anybody got the data and/or reports based on the actual combat and the performance of the cartridge?
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:07:48 PM EST
Details can not and will not be released untill a replacement rd. is established. Complaints have been numerous since Nam, but after action reports are (very)sensative since the rd. is still in service, and conflicks are ongoing. Jack
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:31:15 PM EST
I've seen first hand what a 5.56 round can do and it's not pretty. In Afganistan I think heavy clothing and distance was a factor and maybe the sure will of the enemy. My father was in Vietnam bullets hitting branches and dense folage cased the round to tumble or fragment before impact. In Somalia 77 wounded 18 killed so what can be said about the 7.62
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 7:36:39 PM EST
I think the Chain Gun, the Smart Bombs, the Stealth Bombers, the Bunker Busters, the Fighter Jets, the Drones, etc., all overshadowed the 5.56 round.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 8:29:45 PM EST
Belive me ,that bullet kill,s people just fine.You can ask any brit trooper that served in northen ireland.Me think,s that was one reason they later switched to the 5.56 them self.s.They went up against poorly trained I.R.A.fighter,s(thou highly motivated)and often took numerous casualtie,s.
Link Posted: 5/22/2003 8:41:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: Details can not and will not be released untill a replacement rd. is established. Complaints have been numerous since Nam, but after action reports are (very)sensative since the rd. is still in service, and conflicks are ongoing. Jack
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Details have already been released. [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=186638&page=1[/url]
5.56mm vs. 7.62 Lethality ~ 5.56mm “definitely answered the mail” and “as long as the shots were in the head or chest they went down” were typical quotes from several Marines; many who were previously very skeptical of 5.56mm ammunition. Most of the interviewed Marines who reported targets not going down and/or could still fight were referencing non-lethal shots to the extremities. There were reports of targets receiving shots in the vitals and not going down. These stories need not be described, but are of the rare superhuman occurrences that defy logic and caliber of round. Some Marines did ask about getting the heaver-grained 5.56mm rounds, up to 77 grain if possible.
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Enemy Engagements ~ Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would “push” a max range of 200m only.
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This agrees with analysis of US forces in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam and with the experience of the Israeli Defense Forces. Afghanistan was a fluke, just like the Falklands were for the British in 1981.
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 10:43:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 1:11:02 PM EST
I asked my friend Mike about the M16. On his first tour of Nam in the early 60's, he started as a BAR man and later an M60 Gunner. My memory is a little rough on this...his experience with the BAR may have been stateside. I don't know if the BAR was used in Nam. He trained on the M14. He went to Nam as a PFC grunt. He finished his tour as an NCO. He was a full-time mud Marine killing others and avoiding getting himself killed. On his second tour, after going to OCS, he was back in charge of an infantry platoon an heard many shots fired in anger. He carried an M16. After a little arty training and FO time, he went to aviation school and earned his OV-10 Bronco wings. His third tour was calling in arty support both from the ground and from the air. Mike got his ass shot out of the sky one day, too. Still needed an M16 for those special moments. As an FO, he found himself in bad neighborhoods and needed to defend himself--not that Marines ever defend...they attack. After Nam, he trained Marines. He retired as a Major. My friend Mike says the M16 and its derivatives are an outstanding weapon that he has trusted his life with and would trust today. AFAIAC, that establishes the M16/AR15/M4 as a more than satisfactory weapons system. It was either Cadillac or Packard who had the slogan, "Ask the man who drives one."
Link Posted: 5/23/2003 2:50:49 PM EST
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