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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/2/2005 3:38:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 3:38:14 PM EDT by CockedandLocked]
I was out shooting in the desert today. I was able to shoot one. I have forgotten the brand of the upper. Also the brand of the mags.

But it was cool, fun, and cheap to shoot.

What do you all like and dislike about the .22LR uppers?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 2:44:44 PM EDT
WOP makes the best dedicated .22 LR upper. THe problem with drop-in conversions is the mighty jump to the rifling and the faster than necessary twist rate.

.22 LR is a heeled bullet tht must upset to fit the bore. This means it is very sensitive to jump and most drop-in conversions cannot wring any useable accuracy.

But if you just want to blow off ammo and don't care about accuracy, the Ciener units work pretty well as do the Colts.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:11:43 PM EDT
not to hijack, but since the ban is dead (at least in most of the USA) is anyone making high cap mags fir use with AR uppers/conversions. Everywhere I look all I see is 10 rounds this and 10rounds that.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:19:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 1:21:38 PM EDT by ARMED-PILOT]
dpms is working on a 25 round and ceiner has 30


Edit Khuel is no longer making uppers
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 1:22:31 PM EDT
Used to have a Ciener years ago, sold it before the ban ended and made $$$ - worked OK.

Got a DPMS heavy barrel upper, but got tired of waiting for the hi-caps and sold it. Plus I didn't like that I had end up buying new gear for it (vertical grip, FF handguards, etc.) to make it a carbon copy of my regular .223 upper.

So I'm going back to the Ciener, with a few 30 rounders, and that way I just drop it in my existing .223 setup.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 12:15:20 PM EDT
My buddy has a Bushmaster Carbon 15 in 22 that works flawlessly he bought it for his daughter she's only 2 so we get to play with it for a while The only downside is the 10 rnd mags
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:12:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
WOP makes the best dedicated .22 LR upper. THe problem with drop-in conversions is the mighty jump to the rifling and the faster than necessary twist rate.

.22 LR is a heeled bullet tht must upset to fit the bore. This means it is very sensitive to jump and most drop-in conversions cannot wring any useable accuracy.

But if you just want to blow off ammo and don't care about accuracy, the Ciener units work pretty well as do the Colts.



Keith:

I have never had the opportunity to shoot one of Frank's .22's, but I did have AccuracySpeaks build me one years ago. It has cleaned the a36 target with a .5mm 10 ring at 50 feet.

SRM
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 2:24:24 PM EDT
It looks to me from the B-master catalog, that you have to change recoil springs and parts? Do others do the same thing?

M4-AK
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 11:41:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/2/2005 11:42:11 AM EDT by mjrowley]
good info...

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 11:44:47 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 11:48:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjrowley:

Originally Posted By 4v50:
I have a Khuel and like it very much, thank you. Now, I'd like to get one of those trashy USA Mags and use it as a shroud around the lower portion of the 30 round Ciener.



Do you have a link to a web site that I can check out the upper?



Khuel uppers are pretty expensive and I've heard he's not making uppers anymore. The reason they were so great was they used Ciener mags, and they would work with M16 RRs and RDIAS/RLLs I believe. So unless you have an M16, it'd be better to get the DPMS upper as they will have 25rd mags on monday. That way you don't have to deal with that ass Ciener for more mags.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:07:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjrowley:

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
I have an attachment for my M16 that's a 22LR. Its boss. The only problem is you spend more time loading magazines then you do shooting. Patty



How many rounds doyour mags hold?



30. I want to design one of those barrel magazines [not sure what they're called] drums if you will for the 22L attachment. That would be boss! Patty
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:26:38 AM EDT
You'll get more answers in either the Armory/22 forum or the AR15 forum.
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:40:05 AM EDT
I have a dedicated .22LR rifle built with a DPMS M4 .22LR upper. It shoots great; pretty accurate and very reliable, even with cheapy WalMart ammo. DPMS will have 30 round magazines available any day now (like Monday).
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 9:55:13 AM EDT
It seems that a 22lr kit would be good for cheap shooting. Maybe I should look into one of these. I wonder why most of them have 10 round mags only?

4v50, where can I find information on a Kuehl conversion?

pattymcn, what kind of conversion do you have? I understand that not many of them work with a registered M16 (full auto)?

Link Posted: 10/2/2005 6:39:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pattymcn:
I have an attachment for my M16 that's a 22LR. Its boss. The only problem is you spend more time loading magazines then you do shooting. Patty



How many rounds doyour mags hold?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 8:18:56 AM EDT
I've used the Colt brand drop in bolt and
.22lr magazine for at least fifteen years.
Have never had a problem of any kind.

Thought about getting a dedicated upper with
the .22lr appropriate twist rate. Decided against
it. Don't see the need since I use the conversion
set-up for plinking.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 9:56:18 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 9:58:18 PM EDT
I have a Khuel and like it very much, thank you. Now, I'd like to get one of those trashy USA Mags and use it as a shroud around the lower portion of the 30 round Ciener.
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:01:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 4v50:
I have a Khuel and like it very much, thank you. Now, I'd like to get one of those trashy USA Mags and use it as a shroud around the lower portion of the 30 round Ciener.



Do you have a link to a web site that I can check out the upper?
Link Posted: 10/1/2005 10:11:15 PM EDT
I have an attachment for my M16 that's a 22LR. Its boss. The only problem is you spend more time loading magazines then you do shooting. Patty
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 3:56:04 PM EDT
I remember a little while back I saw an advertisement in SGN for a belt fed .22 upper. Whatever became of that?
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:18:10 PM EDT
I think he's about to start shipping the first batch out.
www.lakesideguns.com/
Link Posted: 10/2/2005 4:44:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SRM:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
WOP makes the best dedicated .22 LR upper. THe problem with drop-in conversions is the mighty jump to the rifling and the faster than necessary twist rate.

.22 LR is a heeled bullet tht must upset to fit the bore. This means it is very sensitive to jump and most drop-in conversions cannot wring any useable accuracy.

But if you just want to blow off ammo and don't care about accuracy, the Ciener units work pretty well as do the Colts.



Keith:

I have never had the opportunity to shoot one of Frank's .22's, but I did have AccuracySpeaks build me one years ago. It has cleaned the a36 target with a .5mm 10 ring at 50 feet.

SRM



That would be a 5 mm X ring. Yes, Derek Martin's .22 uppers are also a good bet but I have not tried them, only heard it.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 1:11:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
WOP makes the best dedicated .22 LR upper. THe problem with drop-in conversions is the mighty jump to the rifling and the faster than necessary twist rate.

.22 LR is a heeled bullet tht must upset to fit the bore. This means it is very sensitive to jump and most drop-in conversions cannot wring any useable accuracy.

But if you just want to blow off ammo and don't care about accuracy, the Ciener units work pretty well as do the Colts.



DPMS released the high-caps as of today.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 2:10:55 AM EDT
Is the WOP .22 upper capable of using the new DPMS or ciener hi-cap mags???
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 4:24:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 4:25:49 PM EDT by SSFeldjager]
I tried out a Ciener 22LR conversion kit this past weekend. I put about 600+ rounds through it using a Bushmaster XM15E2S. 22LR rounds were Remington HV HP's and CCI Mini Mags, also HP's. No sweat, no problems. I was surprised it went so well. Cleaned after the first 400 rounds, then after I finished. Didn't want to spend the dollars on a dedicated upper. Not a bad investment. Not match grade accuracy, but it does what I want; and that's what matters to me.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:36:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
I tried out a Ciener 22LR conversion kit this past weekend. I put about 600+ rounds through it using a Bushmaster XM15E2S. 22LR rounds were Remington HV HP's and CCI Mini Mags, also HP's. No sweat, no problems. I was surprised it went so well. Cleaned after the first 400 rounds, then after I finished. Didn't want to spend the dollars on a dedicated upper. Not a bad investment. Not match grade accuracy, but it does what I want; and that's what matters to me.



so what do they cost?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:39:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:

Originally Posted By Keith_J:
WOP makes the best dedicated .22 LR upper. THe problem with drop-in conversions is the mighty jump to the rifling and the faster than necessary twist rate.

.22 LR is a heeled bullet tht must upset to fit the bore. This means it is very sensitive to jump and most drop-in conversions cannot wring any useable accuracy.

But if you just want to blow off ammo and don't care about accuracy, the Ciener units work pretty well as do the Colts.



DPMS released the high-caps as of today.



Have a link?
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 8:51:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/3/2005 8:54:23 PM EDT by Quien]

Originally Posted By in_burrito:
Have a link?



LINK

Other Link
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:06:06 PM EDT
Another idea: if you want a drop-in conversion kit and can't face dealing with Ciener (he truly is an ass) then DPMS do one. Not so well known as their complete uppers, but reasonably priced. Details can be found here. Photo:



I have their dedicated upper which works well, so I can't vouch for the performance of this conversion kit. Its AR15 only... if you have an M16 then you are stuck with Ciener.
Link Posted: 10/3/2005 9:11:29 PM EDT
DPMS has state in one of their threads that they have something in the works for the "rock and roll" guys too.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:57:28 AM EDT
You said it all, CHEAP and FUN to SHOOT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 8:42:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By M4-AK:
It looks to me from the B-master catalog, that you have to change recoil springs and parts? Do others do the same thing?


Bushmaster's upper uses a recoil spring in the buffer tube so you have to swap out the buffer. All of the other brands of kits & uppers have the recoil spring inside the upper so you can leave the .223 buffer in place (or out completely).


For drop-in kits that use the .223 barrel I know of:
Ciener - in production, 30 or 10 round mags, available in M16 for full-auto
DPMS - in production, 10 round only until Dec, then 25 or 10, semi-only
M261 (Army) - out of production, 10 round only, uses mag inserts in regular mags, semi-only
M261 (Air Force) - out of production, 10 round only, semi-only, bolt hold-open works?
Colt - out of production, 10 round only, semi-only

Accuracy of the kits is usually poor, especially with 1/9 or faster barrels, but sometimes pretty good with 1/12 barrels. Be sure to clean well after using as they gunk up the receiver pretty fast.

For complete uppers I know of:
Bushmaster - 10 round only, semi-only, have to swap buffers
DPMS - 10 round until Dec then 25/10, semi-only, at least 3 styles available
CZ - 10 round but can use slightly modified Ciener mags, semi-only, side charging handle
Compass Lake (CLE) - M261 based
Accuracy Speaks - Ciener or M261 based
Kuehl - out of production, Ciener based
KKF - uses chamber adapter, so works with any kit above
Fulton Armory - Ciener based?

Accuracy of the uppers ranges from as good as a regular semi-auto rifle like the 10/22 to match-grade ragged holes. They have no gas tube so the upper will stay cleaner.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 9:03:05 AM EDT
tag.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 2:40:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2005 2:43:57 PM EDT by SSFeldjager]
The Ciener kit with a 10 round magazine was $139, I believe. I ordered direct from the manufacturer. A personal check took a couple of weeks to clear my bank, then I received the kit in the mail. With an extra 10 round magazine and shipping, the cost was something like $184. For me, well worth the money and suits me fine. I sighted in a Leapers T168 scope at 75 yards and took it squirrel hunting. Three squirrels in the freezer is accuracy enough for me.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 6:35:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bogie:
My buddy has a Bushmaster Carbon 15 in 22 that works flawlessly he bought it for his daughter she's only 2 so we get to play with it for a whilehe


Ditto - got the Carbon 15 in .22LR for my daughter's 12yr birthday last month - very NICE weapon. Retail is $749 but I picked it up used with JP trigger and a FTE problem related to the trigger for $300 cash, and spent 5 hours fixing the trigger for nothing. What a deal!
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 7:14:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
The Ciener kit with a 10 round magazine was $139, I believe. I ordered direct from the manufacturer. A personal check took a couple of weeks to clear my bank, then I received the kit in the mail. With an extra 10 round magazine and shipping, the cost was something like $184. For me, well worth the money and suits me fine. I sighted in a Leapers T168 scope at 75 yards and took it squirrel hunting. Three squirrels in the freezer is accuracy enough for me.

Got one, also from the manufacturer. I spray the cheap Wal-Mart stuff around all day for pennies and have no problems. Oh sure, I get an occasional lemon round but that's what you get when you buy the cheap stuff and to me it's an acceptable trade off. I use iron sites when I squirrel hunt and nail em out to 60 yards or so. I’ve always wanted a dedicated .22 upper but couldn't justify the expense. No squirrels in the freezer though because the ones I hunt are attack squirrels and it's either me or them.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:21:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sfax39:

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
The Ciener kit with a 10 round magazine was $139, I believe. I ordered direct from the manufacturer. A personal check took a couple of weeks to clear my bank, then I received the kit in the mail. With an extra 10 round magazine and shipping, the cost was something like $184. For me, well worth the money and suits me fine. I sighted in a Leapers T168 scope at 75 yards and took it squirrel hunting. Three squirrels in the freezer is accuracy enough for me.

Got one, also from the manufacturer. I spray the cheap Wal-Mart stuff around all day for pennies and have no problems. Oh sure, I get an occasional lemon round but that's what you get when you buy the cheap stuff and to me it's an acceptable trade off. I use iron sites when I squirrel hunt and nail em out to 60 yards or so. I’ve always wanted a dedicated .22 upper but couldn't justify the expense. No squirrels in the freezer though because the ones I hunt are attack squirrels and it's either me or them.



I won't touch anything Ciener makes with a 10 foot pole.
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:29:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:32:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
I won't touch anything Ciener makes with a 10 foot pole.



That's a shame, because they work damn fine. My wife bought me one, I promptly bought a Kuehl barrel for it, modified the kit, bought some hi-caps and have one FUUUUN little rifle!
gloftoe.addlepated.net/22upper



have you ever tried to talk to CIener? Yeah....that'll change your mind real quick....
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:38:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2005 11:56:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gloftoe:
Talking to him isn't gonna change my mind that this is a 100% running .22 conversion. And it works with the fun-button too.



The man is a asshat of the highest order, and I don't give my money to asshats.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:42:02 AM EDT
But how do you really feel?
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 1:53:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mayassa:
But how do you really feel?



call him up with a question about his products, I dare you....
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 2:11:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Enigma102083:
call him up with a question about his products, I dare you....


That's funny. You can always tell if someone has actually dealt with the man. Only a glutton for punishment would subject themselves to that kind of abuse. The guy has some serious personality issues/disorder but he does make a great kit. I say buy the kit (grit your teeth) and have fun.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:06:12 PM EDT
Who cares whether Ciener is much of a conversationalist or not? It's a very simple concept for me: I pay him the money required for the product; he sends it to me; I shoot using his product. Its' not like I want to date his daughter or ask him to define the theory of relativity. I've had some great fun with his product, which is all I'm interested in.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 4:57:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
Who cares whether Ciener is much of a conversationalist or not? It's a very simple concept for me: I pay him the money required for the product; he sends it to me; I shoot using his product. Its' not like I want to date his daughter or ask him to define the theory of relativity. I've had some great fun with his product, which is all I'm interested in.

Good point. Cut a check, sitck it in the mail and wait for your kit. If for some reason you have to call for "customer service" you had better grit your teeth because in two seconds you'll want to choke the shit out of him.
Link Posted: 10/5/2005 6:37:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/5/2005 6:38:21 PM EDT by ASUsax]

Originally Posted By sfax39:

Originally Posted By SSFeldjager:
Who cares whether Ciener is much of a conversationalist or not? It's a very simple concept for me: I pay him the money required for the product; he sends it to me; I shoot using his product. Its' not like I want to date his daughter or ask him to define the theory of relativity. I've had some great fun with his product, which is all I'm interested in.

Good point. Cut a check, sitck it in the mail and wait for your kit. If for some reason you have to call for "customer service" you had better grit your teeth because in two seconds you'll want to choke the shit out of him.



My question would be- is his product that much better than a M261 or a DPMS drop in bolt to make it worth it? If not, well, I'd rather deal with DPMS, etc.
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