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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/18/2005 5:06:22 AM EDT
In my opinion, putting a $500+ optic onto a $600 carbine, that is intended for use at ranges WELL under 200 yards, and arguably under 100 yards, is just a bit extreme. And I certainly hope I am not alone in feeling this way.

C'mon folks, let's face it. We're not talking about .30 cal rifles that actually do have the power to reach out beyond 200yds and still do great amounts of damage. I already ownsome of those and good glass is warranted and needed on such rifles IMO. We're talking about close-range, small caliber carbines that need rapid target acquisition capabilities for use in close range environments.

I looked with interest at the affordable T168-style scopes, but then I read the many poor reviews of them. So, on that note, can anyone recommend a good low power scope that won't break the (my) bank? I am interested in something for use on an A4 flattop upper'd gun, with iron sights as a backup.

Thanks in advance.

Eric
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:13:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 5:14:25 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By eric10mm:
In my opinion, putting a $500+ optic onto a $600 carbine, that is intended for use at ranges WELL under 200 yards, and arguably under 100 yards, is just a bit extreme. And I certainly hope I am not alone in feeling this way.

C'mon folks, let's face it. We're not talking about .30 cal rifles that actually do have the power to reach out beyond 200yds and still do great amounts of damage. I already ownsome of those and good glass is warranted and needed on such rifles IMO. We're talking about close-range, small caliber carbines that need rapid target acquisition capabilities for use in close range environments.

I looked with interest at the affordable T168-style scopes, but then I read the many poor reviews of them. So, on that note, can anyone recommend a good low power scope that won't break the (my) bank? I am interested in something for use on an A4 flattop upper'd gun, with iron sights as a backup.

Thanks in advance.

Eric



You have no clue, at all do you?

Hell from your line of reasoning/thinking why have an optic at all thats magnified, or why even put an optic on it at all? Surely your not going to use this thing at ranges beyond more then 100 yards most of the time so why bother?? I mean you said that yourself, why buy a cheap one at all why not just save the money and use yer irons?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:26:34 AM EDT
Eric, I'd look for a Simmons Aetec...the prices have been creeping up, but I think you can still get them for under $150. I have the 3.8x12, and it's a great scope for what I paid for it...$125. It's big, though, and you don't really need this much scope.

Also, Sightron has a couple of 3x9 models well within your budget...it's the S1 model. I think you can get the 3x9x40 mildot model for about $110. I just bought one from Midway for a little less, but I get dealer pricing. I haven't shot that rifle yet...hopefully soon, if I can get a weekend day that it's not 95 and humid as a bitch lol. So far, though, just looking around with it in my neighborhood, the glass seems very clear.

If you don't want much magnification, Weaver has a 1x3 that's supposed to be pretty good. The only Weaver scope I own is the Grand Slam...more expensive, but I think it's a great piece of glass.

And, there's always the Simmons Pro Diamond...that's the choice of several folks here...the 1.5x5 model is about $55 shiped. That should really be all the scope you need, given what you posted.

I have no experience at all with them, but you can probably pick up a Hakko hunting scope within your budget.

Also, don't forget to cruise the EE...there are some bargains there, if you get lucky. If you have any questions about a specific scope, I can help you.

I'd stay away from the really cheap stuff, though...no BEC, Leapers, or the un named stuff that places like Tapco sells.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:13:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eric10mm:
In my opinion, putting a $500+ optic onto a $600 carbine, that is intended for use at ranges WELL under 200 yards, and arguably under 100 yards, is just a bit extreme. And I certainly hope I am not alone in feeling this way.

C'mon folks, let's face it. We're not talking about .30 cal rifles that actually do have the power to reach out beyond 200yds and still do great amounts of damage. I already ownsome of those and good glass is warranted and needed on such rifles IMO. We're talking about close-range, small caliber carbines that need rapid target acquisition capabilities for use in close range environments.

I looked with interest at the affordable T168-style scopes, but then I read the many poor reviews of them. So, on that note, can anyone recommend a good low power scope that won't break the (my) bank? I am interested in something for use on an A4 flattop upper'd gun, with iron sights as a backup.

Thanks in advance.

Eric



Uh Maximum effective range for an AR variant is somewhere between 400 and 600 yrds. My 20" Bushy will put CLEAN holes thru 1/4" steel plate @ 300 yrds. Im not knocking any 30 cals but you're grossly mis-informed if ya think maxium EFFECTIVE range of .223/5.56 is at most 200 yrds. On the optics side you can put almost ANY scope that you can get to fit ontop of the carry handle with the right mounts. You can keep you costs low by buying a BSA or even a Tasco.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:28:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

You have no clue, at all do you?


Perhaps not, in your opinion. But what I do have is an opinion, as obviously do you. And you know what they say about opinions.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:39:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:58:49 AM EDT by eric10mm]

Originally Posted By Fenian:
Eric, I'd look for a Simmons Aetec...Also, Sightron has a couple of 3x9 models well within your budget...it's the S1 model. I think you can get the 3x9x40 mildot model for about $110. I just bought one from Midway for a little less, but I get dealer pricing. .....Weaver has a 1x3 that's supposed to be pretty good. ......And, there's always the Simmons Pro Diamond...that's the choice of several folks here...the 1.5x5 model is about $55 shiped. That should really be all the scope you need, given what you posted.

I'd stay away from the really cheap stuff, though...no BEC, Leapers, or the un named stuff that places like Tapco sells.



Thanks for the ideas Fenian. I will take a look at some of those options.

As to the other, less than helpful, useful or cordial replies....

As I stated in the very first words of this thread, this is my opinion. I have been shooting these "mouse guns" since I was old enough to first buy one, some 18 years ago. I have shot at many differing ranges and in many different disciplines. These include many tens of thousands of rounds at schools and seminars on combat/tactical style shooting put on by the likes of Jim Crews, Col. Jeff Cooper and crew at "grey" and "orange" Gunsite, Clint Smith and crew at Thunder Ranch and also including NRA High Power out to 600yds with the iron sights. So I absolutely DO know how to use the original iron sights quite effectively thank you very much.

I have also shot at those extended ranges quite often enough to have seen and know the ballistic limitations of the .223/5.56mm round. Through 1/4"plate at 300rds? That is obviously some very, very soft steel. And we won't even get into the effect of wind at those longer distance. No sirs, that is why I own larger caliber guns. That is also why the law enforcement and military forces of the world also choose to own larger caliber guns, and I do know plenty of folks in each of those areas.

Now don't get me wrong, I dearly love my AR variant rifles. They are light, carry a good number of rounds, are decently accurate, fairly robust, easy to operate and maintain and they use a round that is effective far beyond pistol-caliber ranges. That is why I became a "Team Member" of AR15.com and why I continue to own, build and improve them.

But lets be honest, my eyes aren't what they used to be when I was 18 and that is also why I would like a nice optical sight so my aging eyes don't have to continue to constantly shift focus between the front "iron" sight and the intended target, all the while attempting to keep those items centered in the rear aperature. That is what scopes are designed for, to put everything into the same plane of view and/or magnify the target.

I thank those of you who offered good advice.

Eric

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:52:20 AM EDT
Eric, I forgot to ask an important question...A2 or flat top?

The Aetec is WAY to big for carry handle mounting. If you have an A2, I'd really stick to the low power variables, or even look at the Hakko clone of the old 4x Colt scopes...that would go great on a carry handle.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:57:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Fenian:
Eric, I forgot to ask an important question...A2 or flat top?


Either, or. I have both configs and need new glass for all. Damned house fire really mussed up all my scopes.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:01:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 7:08:54 AM EDT by TWIRE]
Bushnell Elite 3200, 10x fixed with target knobs and Mildot reticle, $180-200.


Not a great pic, sorry.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:12:54 AM EDT
Look at the Simmons Pro Diamond 1.5X5. A few on this forum use them myself included. I love mine and let's face it you cant beat the price. At the current price buy two.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:16:50 AM EDT

As to the other, less than helpful, useful or cordial replies....



The way yer first post is writen, thats the only way to answer the question. You were an ass in yer first post, so why should we not be asses back in answering it??


In my opinion, putting a $500+ optic onto a $600 carbine, that is intended for use at ranges WELL under 200 yards, and arguably under 100 yards, is just a bit extreme. And I certainly hope I am not alone in feeling this way.


My intended use for my carbine is ragnes out to 300 yards, hence the 1-4 power scope. The majority of it's use is at ranges where most defensive use of a gun would take place, so yes under 100 yards and under 60 for sure. Though it does get used at ranges out to 300 yards, becuase thats the ranges that this gun is intended to be used for.


C'mon folks, let's face it. We're not talking about .30 cal rifles that actually do have the power to reach out beyond 200yds and still do great amounts of damage.
Whats this all about? A chest wound from a .223 or 308 will ruin anyones day at any range. And lets be practical here, ain't no one going to be shooting at somone past 200 yards in a defensive shooting unless your fighting drug runners along the southern border maybe. Hell I doubt shooting somone 100 yards away is going to be taken seriously as a defensive shooting either.


We're talking about close-range, small caliber carbines that need rapid target acquisition capabilities for use in close range environments.

That may be what you think the intended roll of the round is. Or that may be the intended use of the round to you. I use it as a GP gun and cal. I use the best bullets I can to give me the best preformance I can get. I can cover PB to 300 yards with no problems with my choice in gun set up. There is nothing CQB only about the .223 round. I can still pick up targets fast in close, and I hve the added benifit of being able to ID things at longer ranges if need be.


I looked with interest at the affordable T168-style scopes, but then I read the many poor reviews of them. So, on that note, can anyone recommend a good low power scope that won't break the (my) bank? I am interested in something for use on an A4 flattop upper'd gun, with iron sights as a backup.

So after all the crap you wrote about it being a gun for close in shit, you ask about optics. And you mention looking at the T-168 a POS scope in my book and yes I've looked through and played with them. Not only is it cheap on the price side, I think it's cheap on the quality side. Perhaps a red dot would do you better then a traditional optic, since after all you feel they are so extreme on a gun that won't be used past 100 yards most of the time.

So you come in and basicly say using a scope on an AR is silly, then ask which one to get thats not going to break the bank and give as an example one thats pretty cheap both quality and price wise. I took yer whole post as prety sarcastic, and responded to it they way I felt it was written.

My advice, get a cheap 3-9 or 1-4. And by cheap I mean a non-tactical optic, from like Leupold, or a burris or something.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:17:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By TWIRE:
Bushnell Elite 3200, 10x fixed with target knobs and Mildot reticle, $180-200.


I just purchased one of those from a fellow AR15.com member, but alas it is "too much" scope for my AR needs. It will go on a JLD PTR91-A1 .308.

Eric
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:17:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jcncc:
Look at the Simmons Pro Diamond 1.5X5. A few on this forum use them myself included. I love mine and let's face it you cant beat the price. At the current price buy two.


Who sells these scopes (cheaply)?

Thanks, Eric
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:50:45 AM EDT
my buis was $140



Link Posted: 8/18/2005 8:56:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:

As to the other, less than helpful, useful or cordial replies....



The way yer first post is writen, thats the only way to answer the question. You were an ass in yer first post, so why should we not be asses back in answering it??


Well apparently your eyesight is worse than mine. Because you entirely missed the very first three words of my post.

But thank you anyway for your advice and suggestions.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:05:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eric10mm:
..that is intended for use at ranges WELL under 200 yards, and arguably under 100 yards, is


Why are you looking for a 4x powered scope for that range then, why not just get a red-dot?


We're talking about close-range, small caliber carbines that need rapid target acquisition capabilities for use in close range environments.

Again that sounds more like a 1x red-dot type scope.

In the $150-$200 price range the SPOT and the Burris Xtream seem to be the top contenders.


I looked with interest at the affordable T168-style scopes, but then I read the many poor reviews of them.

Hmm they got several good reviews on this site. One of the members of this site brought one with him during his tour in Iraq, he seemed to think it worked fairly well. I'm sure someone will be along with a link to the thread.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:06:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eric10mm:

Originally Posted By jcncc:
Look at the Simmons Pro Diamond 1.5X5. A few on this forum use them myself included. I love mine and let's face it you cant beat the price. At the current price buy two.


Who sells these scopes (cheaply)?

Thanks, Eric




http://store.yahoo.com/cdnn/simmonsscopes.html

Great service and shipped fast
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:31:28 AM EDT
just my .02:


a lowe paowered variable in the 1.5-7X range -

there are a surprising number of good scopes in this category-

my first choice would be the Simmons Whitetail Expedition- they made one in 1.5-6 or so, and can be found on clearance for about $100, give or take 10 bucks.

Other choices closer to the $200 tag are the Weaver classic (OK glass, anvil reliability), Elite 3200.

I used to be a Burris/Leupold snob, but after three Black Diamonds and Fullfield IIs in a row with major problems from the manufacturer I am done with them.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:05:20 PM EDT
Since I am well familiar with the iron sights, I simply want something to aid my worsening vision at distances farther than I can hit with a rock.

Thanks for all of your good suggestions.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:13:38 PM EDT
1. It's perfectly possible to hit things at 600+ yards with a 5.56. The question is how effective the bullet really is at that range in terms of terminal ballistics.

2. It's also perfectly normal to mount a $500+ optic on these guns. Even an Aimpoint, once you include a decent mount, is $500.

3. If you really don't care about shooting past 200, and are focused mainly on 100 or less in defensive situations, then an unmagnified optic like an Aimpoint is probably best. There are plenty of less expensive red dot scopes out there - but you do get what you pay for.
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