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1/16/2020 9:48:49 PM
Posted: 9/17/2009 3:43:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 12:04:54 AM EST by urbankaos04]
I guess I'm talking about CL barrels that are MOA capable at 100 yards. No specific reason for the question, just askin. Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:47:12 PM EST
I think a lot of manufacturers can do that. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong...
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:50:50 PM EST
Krieger..compass lake engineering Douglas barrels
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:51:37 PM EST
LMT and Sabre come to mind.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:53:39 PM EST
Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Lilja, Pac-Nor (which is who actually makes the barrels for Noveske, they only finish them)... there are a great many barrel makers that turn out barrels that are capable of well below 1/2 MOA. A lot depends on how the barrel is finished and there are tons of barrel finishers that can do that too. However, the best barrel in the world finished by the best barrel finisher in the world is no better than the person doing the build. If it is just thrown in an upper without much else considered then it may not shoot well, and of course, a LOT depends on the shooter and the load being shot.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:54:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
I guess I'm talking about MOA capable 100 yards. No specific reason for the question, just askin. Thanks.


I was just wondering the same thing.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 4:07:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 4:07:27 PM EST by bigbore]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 4:11:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 4:15:17 PM EST by urbankaos04]
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


Is that the CL 16" middy, medium contour barrels you guys have? What kind of rifling does it have? Nato chamber?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 4:15:43 PM EST
Broughton 5c = hands down WIN


used by Patriot Arms
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:49:52 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:51:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:11:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By badazzar15:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


They sure will, I've got one.


How many rounds through it? What ammo have you been shooting?
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:15:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 7:21:29 PM EST by badazzar15]
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:27:00 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:05:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 8:23:24 PM EST by urbankaos04]
Thanks for the answer, BigBore. It wasn't as bad as I thought it was gonna be!

And, as you said, I guess the weak links are the shooter and ammo, cuz I know that I wasn't doing too hot with XM193 at 100 yards. Will be going out this weekend, though, to see how the rifle will do with 75 gr LEO TAP and hotter NATO stuff. And I guess some barrels will just shoot certain ammo better than other, even crappy XM193.

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:14:43 PM EST
LMT used to have a reputation for better than average chrome lined Brl accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:18:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Lilja, Pac-Nor (which is who actually makes the barrels for Noveske, they only finish them)... there are a great many barrel makers that turn out barrels that are capable of well below 1/2 MOA. A lot depends on how the barrel is finished and there are tons of barrel finishers that can do that too. However, the best barrel in the world finished by the best barrel finisher in the world is no better than the person doing the build. If it is just thrown in an upper without much else considered then it may not shoot well, and of course, a LOT depends on the shooter and the load being shot.



Is this thread about chromelined barrels????

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:31:04 AM EST
Spikes &/or ADCO:

Are the 11.5" bbls mentioned above shooting 1 MOA?
I'm not Al Gore, so perhaps I missed it but I've looked around and haven't seen a range report with groups mentioned on the internet.

Bigbore:
Are these the very same bbls that you're using in the Ops package deal?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:31:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 6:32:23 AM EST by Gthirteen]
To answer the OP's question: FN.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:32:00 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:33:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 7:05:56 AM EST
Not to be "that guy", but why not just get a Noveske?
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 7:13:47 AM EST
I have a 5 shot, slow fire .522" group @100m out of my 18" chrome lined Sabre barrel (and a 10shot .689")... with super-tuned Handloads... 69grSMK w/ around 24.4?gr of Varget and Rem primers.... my velocity was around 2700 IIRC...


I'd worry more about the ammunition to barrel match rather than the barrel itself...
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 5:07:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 5:10:42 PM EST by kahrk-9]
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


Is that the CL 16" middy, medium contour barrels you guys have? What kind of rifling does it have? Nato chamber?


Its just a boring regular old rifling air gauged chrome lined barrel. The truth behind accurate AR barrels is really boring. From your posts over the last couple weeks, I'm not sure if you will ever find the answer you want to hear.

The truth is BORING. Open a box with a brand new RRA 4140, chrome lined 1:9 Wilson Arms made barrel, and it will be every bit as mechanically accurate as the Noveske. ANY quality(brand name) barrel attached to ANY brand name AR, out of the box(with good ammo) is a 100yd, 1 MOA barrel/gun. The AR is a very accurate platform to begin with. The weak link is the shooter, not the hardware.

If you have a carbine that is not accurate enough for you, you either need to spend a lot of money on practice ammo, or you are using a carbine for the wrong job.


If all the people who owned ARs, actually knew what they were working with and what was "needed" to get an "accurate" rifle, the bottom of the aftermarket AR world would fall right out, because there would be no more demand for all the crap that is spoon fed to them on the interweb about who does what better than who.

As I said, the truth is boring and I'm sure whatever you have is better than what you need, but as this is a hobby, its not about need. Define what you need, then buy what you want, but dont go looking for answers/excuses to justify your purchase. Be happy with what you have and go shooting.






Thanks for the info. This reinforces some nagging suspicions that I am having as I shop the more expensive AR market.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 6:25:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By Geohans:
Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Lilja, Pac-Nor (which is who actually makes the barrels for Noveske, they only finish them)... there are a great many barrel makers that turn out barrels that are capable of well below 1/2 MOA. A lot depends on how the barrel is finished and there are tons of barrel finishers that can do that too. However, the best barrel in the world finished by the best barrel finisher in the world is no better than the person doing the build. If it is just thrown in an upper without much else considered then it may not shoot well, and of course, a LOT depends on the shooter and the load being shot.



Is this thread about chromelined barrels????



Chrome lined or Compass Lake. I assumed by "CL" he meant chrome lined.

Link Posted: 9/18/2009 7:36:39 PM EST
Originally Posted By darktide:

I'd worry more about the ammunition to barrel match rather than the barrel itself...


So true. I just tried the 75gr black hills thru my 16" 1/7...I had no idea what I was missing. Almost wish I hadn't tried it. Gonna be tough goin back to M855.
Link Posted: 9/18/2009 9:03:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2009 9:04:41 PM EST by TehLlama42]
No question - the weak link in the AR15 system lies aft of the buttstock.
Next is ammunition - A free floated POS barrel shooting hand/match loaded 77gr SMK's is going to outshoot the best barrels out there if the latter are running bulk or surplus ammunition.

I'm with BigBore that the market for high dollar barrels exists only because of the hobbyist nature of most shooters, but from a purely fiscal angle I can understand that buying a top end barrel an be a smart investment - even if the last $100 of price is mostly a wash because of diminishing returns - for anybody who intends on putting more than one case of ammunition down the pipe (let alone match quality loads), that last bit of money is only a small fraction of lifetime cost - so buying up to the most expensive gucci barrels makes sense for those users. Alas - the average AR rarely sees round #1001.

For us weekend warriors - a box stock fudd-spec AR15 is going to outshoot and outlast the user. Our obsession with owning 'the best' merely provides efficiencies of scale for those who actually makes use of the top end stuff to its fullest.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 6:54:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 6:55:44 AM EST by Brahmzy]
A little off topic, but what is the reality of a 14.5" vs. 16" carbine, assuming a consistent shooter, same twist, same ammo, out to 200 yards? I'm building a new AR and wanted to use a 14.5 YHM barrel, but have always thought that 1.5" cut the accuracy down - is that false?
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:15:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 10:52:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By Brahmzy:
A little off topic, but what is the reality of a 14.5" vs. 16" carbine, assuming a consistent shooter, same twist, same ammo, out to 200 yards? I'm building a new AR and wanted to use a 14.5 YHM barrel, but have always thought that 1.5" cut the accuracy down - is that false?


I think you lose velocity, not accuracy.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 2:07:36 PM EST
The most accurate chrome lined Brl I have ever owned was a new surplus Colt M16A1 Brl. Damn thing would shoot 10-shot groups under .80" with M193. Never should have sold it.

I have a 16" CMMG that will only do 3.5" on a good day with heavy OTM.

I think alot of it is just luck of the draw.

My most accurate brl is a stainless 1:9 24" HBAR.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 2:26:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By Gthirteen:
Bigbore:
Are these the very same bbls that you're using in the Ops package deal?


yes, same barrels.


Dang the secrets out now....
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 2:32:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By smoketheresfire:
Originally Posted By darktide:

I'd worry more about the ammunition to barrel match rather than the barrel itself...


So true. I just tried the 75gr black hills thru my 16" 1/7...I had no idea what I was missing. Almost wish I hadn't tried it. Gonna be tough goin back to M855.


I was in the same boat..after over 4000+ rounds of strictly XM193 and PMC bronze, I wanted to try something different. The reason was that I actually could shoot sub MOA with a Rem700 so I had confidence in my abilities. After aquiring a Noveske SPR, I ordered MK262, TAP 5.56, and BH Blue Box 77gr. Ammo was a huge factor for me personally for consistant groups. YMMV.

Link Posted: 9/19/2009 2:34:16 PM EST

Originally Posted By Big-Bore:
Lothar Walther, Kreiger, Lilja, Pac-Nor (which is who actually makes the barrels for Noveske, they only finish them)... there are a great many barrel makers that turn out barrels that are capable of well below 1/2 MOA. A lot depends on how the barrel is finished and there are tons of barrel finishers that can do that too. However, the best barrel in the world finished by the best barrel finisher in the world is no better than the person doing the build. If it is just thrown in an upper without much else considered then it may not shoot well, and of course, a LOT depends on the shooter and the load being shot.

But he wants it *chromed* which is very rare for a high-precision barrel....
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 2:45:26 PM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


Is that the CL 16" middy, medium contour barrels you guys have? What kind of rifling does it have? Nato chamber?


Its just a boring regular old rifling air gauged chrome lined barrel. The truth behind accurate AR barrels is really boring. From your posts over the last couple weeks, I'm not sure if you will ever find the answer you want to hear.

The truth is BORING. Open a box with a brand new RRA 4140, chrome lined 1:9 Wilson Arms made barrel, and it will be every bit as mechanically accurate as the Noveske. ANY quality(brand name) barrel attached to ANY brand name AR, out of the box(with good ammo) is a 100yd, 1 MOA barrel/gun. The AR is a very accurate platform to begin with. The weak link is the shooter, not the hardware.

If you have a carbine that is not accurate enough for you, you either need to spend a lot of money on practice ammo, or you are using a carbine for the wrong job.

If all the people who owned ARs, actually knew what they were working with and what was "needed" to get an "accurate" rifle, the bottom of the aftermarket AR world would fall right out, because there would be no more demand for all the crap that is spoon fed to them on the interweb about who does what better than who.

As I said, the truth is boring and I'm sure whatever you have is better than what you need, but as this is a hobby, its not about need. Define what you need, then buy what you want, but dont go looking for answers/excuses to justify your purchase. Be happy with what you have and go shooting.






Truth.
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 3:01:51 PM EST
Great post from ADCO again... I've always laughed when someone spouts off about their new, ultra high-end barrel and talks about shooting Wolf through it and then complains it isn't shooting MOA groups. Barrel, ammo, trigger are some of the mechanical keys to an accurate AR.

Spooky
Link Posted: 9/19/2009 4:11:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2009 4:12:47 PM EST by MikefromTX]
Originally Posted By bigbore:

Its just a boring regular old rifling air gauged chrome lined barrel. The truth behind accurate AR barrels is really boring. From your posts over the last couple weeks, I'm not sure if you will ever find the answer you want to hear.

The truth is BORING. Open a box with a brand new RRA 4140, chrome lined 1:9 Wilson Arms made barrel, and it will be every bit as mechanically accurate as the Noveske. ANY quality(brand name) barrel attached to ANY brand name AR, out of the box(with good ammo) is a 100yd, 1 MOA barrel/gun. The AR is a very accurate platform to begin with. The weak link is the shooter, not the hardware.

If you have a carbine that is not accurate enough for you, you either need to spend a lot of money on practice ammo, or you are using a carbine for the wrong job.

If all the people who owned ARs, actually knew what they were working with and what was "needed" to get an "accurate" rifle, the bottom of the aftermarket AR world would fall right out, because there would be no more demand for all the crap that is spoon fed to them on the interweb about who does what better than who.

As I said, the truth is boring and I'm sure whatever you have is better than what you need, but as this is a hobby, its not about need. Define what you need, then buy what you want, but dont go looking for answers/excuses to justify your purchase. Be happy with what you have and go shooting.




^ = Newfound respect for ADCO.



.
.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 4:54:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By MikefromTX:
Originally Posted By bigbore:

Its just a boring regular old rifling air gauged chrome lined barrel. The truth behind accurate AR barrels is really boring. From your posts over the last couple weeks, I'm not sure if you will ever find the answer you want to hear.

The truth is BORING. Open a box with a brand new RRA 4140, chrome lined 1:9 Wilson Arms made barrel, and it will be every bit as mechanically accurate as the Noveske. ANY quality(brand name) barrel attached to ANY brand name AR, out of the box(with good ammo) is a 100yd, 1 MOA barrel/gun. The AR is a very accurate platform to begin with. The weak link is the shooter, not the hardware.

If you have a carbine that is not accurate enough for you, you either need to spend a lot of money on practice ammo, or you are using a carbine for the wrong job.

If all the people who owned ARs, actually knew what they were working with and what was "needed" to get an "accurate" rifle, the bottom of the aftermarket AR world would fall right out, because there would be no more demand for all the crap that is spoon fed to them on the interweb about who does what better than who.

As I said, the truth is boring and I'm sure whatever you have is better than what you need, but as this is a hobby, its not about need. Define what you need, then buy what you want, but dont go looking for answers/excuses to justify your purchase. Be happy with what you have and go shooting.




^ = Newfound respect for ADCO.



.
.





Added respect for Spike's for continually supporting other companies whith quality products. Not every company will tell you others make good stuff, too.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 5:49:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
Originally Posted By urbankaos04:
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


Is that the CL 16" middy, medium contour barrels you guys have? What kind of rifling does it have? Nato chamber?


Its just a boring regular old rifling air gauged chrome lined barrel. The truth behind accurate AR barrels is really boring. From your posts over the last couple weeks, I'm not sure if you will ever find the answer you want to hear.

The truth is BORING. Open a box with a brand new RRA 4140, chrome lined 1:9 Wilson Arms made barrel, and it will be every bit as mechanically accurate as the Noveske. ANY quality(brand name) barrel attached to ANY brand name AR, out of the box(with good ammo) is a 100yd, 1 MOA barrel/gun. The AR is a very accurate platform to begin with. The weak link is the shooter, not the hardware.

If you have a carbine that is not accurate enough for you, you either need to spend a lot of money on practice ammo, or you are using a carbine for the wrong job.

If all the people who owned ARs, actually knew what they were working with and what was "needed" to get an "accurate" rifle, the bottom of the aftermarket AR world would fall right out, because there would be no more demand for all the crap that is spoon fed to them on the interweb about who does what better than who.

As I said, the truth is boring and I'm sure whatever you have is better than what you need, but as this is a hobby, its not about need. Define what you need, then buy what you want, but dont go looking for answers/excuses to justify your purchase. Be happy with what you have and go shooting.






So why can I shoot 1/3 MOA with a benchrest rifle but I have not found many ARs that can do 1 MOA with even factory match ammo? What am I missing in my ability to shoot an AR? In my experience a sub 1 MOA chrome lined AR is quite the rarity. I can shoot a good bolt gun sub MOA easily, even sub 1/2 MOA. Please explain beasue I must be missing something.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 6:07:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/21/2009 9:04:20 AM EST by Sinister]
A benchrest bolt rifle usually equals better trigger and faster lock time due to a striker rather than a hammer. A benchrest rifle will also be tuned and trued with equally riding locking lugs. A benchrest rifle will usually be built around a premium cut-rifled barrel.

An average AR with factory trigger will have a heavy (slow) hammer relative to a straight-line striker. A factory single-stage trigger will normally break at five pounds plus. It will usually have a button-rifled barrel with longer free-bore before the bullet ogive even reaches rifling leades.

M855 will not have two steel penetrators coaxially true to all others in the same can or case –– it's not possible, therefore each bullet will wobble around its own axis. Factory match ammo is better but not necessarily matched to the rifle's individual chambering and leade.

Are you using the same scope on both rifles?

Anything else?
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 6:35:47 PM EST
You forgot something.
Swap the optics. And shoot factory ammo out of the bolt gun. After the trigger is adjusted to the AR's range.
458
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:22:16 PM EST
Has anyone mentioned Denney's Operator? It's a chrome lined middy medium contour 16 inch that is all I really need in 5.56mm/223. Obviously I like mine. Once I had that barrel, it was the optic that made the difference mechanically.
Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:29:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By bigbore:
The barrels I had made will shoot every bit as good Noveskes.


Most likely better –– I've only owned one Noveske complete upper and I wasn't all that impressed. Actually I was rather disappointed in it (the upper), not just the accuracy but the finish was crap and the upper receiver had pit like indentations on it in several places. Highly over-rated in my experience, I know I would not buy another one. It does come in a "purdy" box though –– lmao.

Link Posted: 9/20/2009 7:31:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2009 7:35:54 PM EST by west2746]
I am going to do a little high jacking here...since ADCO and Spikes are both here ....here is a question for both of you guys.

DISCLAIMER-I will be ordering stuff from both of you in the near future and I am not trying to pit you guys against each other as it seems you both have a good working relationship. Also a 5yr old with a BB gun shoots better then me but I still want something better for my last 5.56 build.

I have been pricing/listing parts for a SPR type build. For some reason I think I want to go with a 1:8 twist but can go 1:7. Can you guys say what the biggest diff between these barrels and if you were buying one which would you choose? and why?

WOA 18" SPR 1:7 from ADCO for $260.00
or
Lothar Walther 18" 1:8 from Spikes for $325.00

Edit––I want a rifle length gas system so I guess that decides it.
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