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Posted: 9/18/2004 4:23:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 4:28:40 PM EST by FishKepr]
I was at the club today for the semi-annual cleaning day when a guy with a carbine was trying to clear a bad malfunction from his AR. The bolt was obviously jammed about 3/8" out of battery.

ME: "Hey, you got a fired case jammed in there?"
GUY: "Yeah."

I picked up a screwdriver off the bench and said, "Let me see that." I tried to pry open the action without success. I handed it back and he tried it. At this point he managed to partially separate the upper from the lower.

Here's where I screwed up: Without asking, I picked up the rifle and took another crack at opening it by trying to cock the hammer by inserting the screwdriver. The hammer cocked, but the screwdriver slipped and scratched the finish on the lower on the corner edge where it meets the upper. I thought "Oh s--t!" and said, "I'm sorry about that." I still feel very bad about that.

I handed the rifle back and after another 5 minutes of effort he managed to completely separate the receivers. He tried to get the bolt open and during his attempts he swept me and the guy next to me with the muzzle. He then put the upper on the bench sideways pointed at the two guys down the line and continued to work on it. One of the match directors who happened to be there for the clean up saw this and told him to point it down range. To his credit, he did. After another few minutes of effort he got the bolt open and a LIVE round dropped out. My jaw dropped open, but I didn't say anything about the safety implications.

For the curious, further inspection suggested that the round was out-of-spec.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:26:11 PM EST
that bites
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:31:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
that bites



I hate it when that happens.

What kind of ammo?

Danny

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:34:00 PM EST
Did you get theat flush feeling in your face?

MT
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:39:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/18/2004 4:40:16 PM EST by BankerBilly]
Well . . .

did you try to "bump" the rifle first ? ? ?

Here's what I do: With the rifle pointed up, hold the handguards in your left hand and grab the charging handle with your right hand, press the release latch, and pull to the rear.

Then . . . "bump" the butt of the rifle on a solid object, ie: shooting bench. Rifle must be pointed up ! ! May take a few "solid bumps" but I have never seen a rifle that could not be cleared this way.

Hope this helps in the future . . . .

Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:43:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By Minuteman419:

Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
that bites



I hate it when that happens.

What kind of ammo?

Danny




It was that imported "Olympic" stuff. (From Greece?)
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:50:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By MT_Pockets:
Did you get theat flush feeling in your face?

MT



You might say that yes.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:52:07 PM EST
What brand of AR was it?
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 4:52:11 PM EST
I had something similar happen a few months ago when I was trap shooting. It was me and this other guy who I figured it was his first time since he was shooting a rented shotgun. I got to the firing line first, looked over, and saw he wasn't wearing any eye protection. I told him to go back to the clubhouse and get a pair of safety glasses but that very moment, he hit the bolt release on accident. Not knowing what happened or how to operate the shotgun properly, he began to panic and started swinging the gun around in an attempt to lock the bolt open and pointed the muzzle at me several times. This was a Beretta semi-auto which has a small black button on the bottom that needs to be hit before the bolt can lock open. Also, like almost all competitive shotguns, the trigger is about 2-3 lbs. so the moment the bolt is closed, it doesn't take much for the gun to go off. I yelled at the guy to calm down, walked up behind him, took the gun from him, opened up the action, and out poped a shell. Needless to say, I think my heart skipped a beat when I saw the little red plastic casing of a 12 gauge fly out.
If there was any good part to this story it was that this moron's girlfriend watched the whole thing happen.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:15:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By BankerBilly:
Well . . .

did you try to "bump" the rifle first ? ? ?

Here's what I do: With the rifle pointed up, hold the handguards in your left hand and grab the charging handle with your right hand, press the release latch, and pull to the rear.

Then . . . "bump" the butt of the rifle on a solid object, ie: shooting bench. Rifle must be pointed up ! ! May take a few "solid bumps" but I have never seen a rifle that could not be cleared this way.

Hope this helps in the future . . . .




That technique works great but don't baby the rifle by "bumping" it Whack it hard against the ground.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:22:30 PM EST

Originally Posted By M11293:
What brand of AR was it?



Colt MT carbine, but we don't think it was the rifle. We tried chambering several other rounds after that one and they all went through the action just fine. Like I said, we suspect an out-of-spec round.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 5:56:25 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 6:13:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By BankerBilly:
Well . . .

did you try to "bump" the rifle first ? ? ?

Here's what I do: With the rifle pointed up, hold the handguards in your left hand and grab the charging handle with your right hand, press the release latch, and pull to the rear.

Then . . . "bump" the butt of the rifle on a solid object, ie: shooting bench. Rifle must be pointed up ! ! May take a few "solid bumps" but I have never seen a rifle that could not be cleared this way.

Hope this helps in the future . . . .




Agreed, we call this the rifle "pogo", and it works!
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:04:38 PM EST
Man that sucks! Similar incident happened to me:

A good friend of mine just bought a PWA with a "who knows who made it"
20" upper. He does'nt know jack shit about ARs except he wished he grabbed
a Carbine instead. The parts in the lower were real cheap and cheesy, some were
even unparked. The bolt catch was busted off and looked like pot metal.

I proceeded to show him how to break it down and clean it. The only bad part was the
front pivot pin was really stuck in there and there were no punches at his house,
so I used the butt of another buddy's rusted Taurus(empty,no mag of course)
and the tip of a metal ball point pen.
I wacked it twice, the pin didn't budge, so I clunked it a third time when it went all the way through
ejecting the detent spring a leaving a nice welt on his lower.

Everybody in the room winced.

Told him my bad and asked him what caliber the bbl. was chambered in(no bbl markings).
He said 5.56, Just when i remembered I had some LC brass laying somewhere in the car.
I retrieved the brass, put the weapon back together and told him we'll find out.

I dropped one down the hole, pulled back the charging handle and let go. The case got stuck 2/3
down the chamber and the bolt would'nt budge no matter what we did. We also tried to pry open
the bolt with a rusty screwdriver and beating it with the now rattling Bereta knock-off.
No luck. I look over at dude,
and he's just shaking his head about to cry.

I tell him it's the weapons fault, I know the brass is spec and should chamber, even
in a .223 barrel{if not extract), all the while I'm wondering why the hell did he aqquire such a hodge-podge, out of Spec
shit upper, bulit on tin parts.

I felt real bad, so I drove him and his rifle back to my house and told him we'll get this resolved
in two seconds with a GI cleaning rod and a mallet. 2 hits and out pops the brass with no apparrent
damage. I grab a couple of my ARs and dropped the same piece of brass down the pipes, and smacked the bolt.
Chmaber and positive ejection each time. I cycled that same piece of LC brass again and again. No Flaws.

I ran it thru his rifle again. Failure to chamber again. Pow gows the mallet a cleaning rod again. Try it a third time same
thing. Try it with Winny .223 brass, same thing.

I shook my head, gave him a 2 boxes of LC XM193 to make amends for pinging his lower
and adivsed him to get a new bbl or replace the upper with something quality.


He was pretty Salty, but then again so was I!
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:21:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:32:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By David_Hineline:
Please keep your screwdrivers away from my guns.

Never watched the Primitive Pete series in High School Woodshop did you?



No,
but look out for the soon to be released, straight-to-video Hit move:
"IronB & FishKepr's rusty screwdrivers"(featuring "Fake Berretta")

Coming to a jammed upper near you!
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 8:50:46 PM EST
Speaking of screwdrivers and claw hammers...

A bunch of us went to the range on Monday to celebrate the end of the ban. One of the guys brought his newly built RRA/Bushmaster upper. This is his first AR mind you. On the third round the action locks up tight. A friend of mine takes a look at it and tries the AR pogo to no avail. This thing is locked up tight. I recommend using a screwdriver to force the carrier back as a last resort. This didn't work either. My friend took the buttstock off in case it was an issue with the buffer retainer, but couldn't get the receivers apart. After much fiddling around they finally got the receivers to seperate. The carrier was still locked up, though. The bolt was unlocked, however. I again recommended the screwdriver. My friend took the screwdriver and a hammer and began to pound the carrier out the back of the receiver. It was very tight. When he finally got it out we discovered a blown primer had lodged in the slot in the carrier for the cam pin. It wedged the cam pin out to the side and it was gouging into the receiver. Once the primer was cleared, the rifle was reassembled and it ran fine the rest of the day. Left a pretty good gouge inside the receiver, though.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:36:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:05:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 3:11:59 AM EST by freshhoarse]

Speaking of screwdrivers and claw hammers...

A bunch of us went to the range on Monday to celebrate the end of the ban. One of the guys brought his newly built RRA/Bushmaster upper. This is his first AR mind you. On the third round the action locks up tight. A friend of mine takes a look at it and tries the AR pogo to no avail. This thing is locked up tight. I recommend using a screwdriver to force the carrier back as a last resort. This didn't work either. My friend took the buttstock off in case it was an issue with the buffer retainer, but couldn't get the receivers apart. After much fiddling around they finally got the receivers to seperate. The carrier was still locked up, though. The bolt was unlocked, however. I again recommended the screwdriver. My friend took the screwdriver and a hammer and began to pound the carrier out the back of the receiver. It was very tight. When he finally got it out we discovered a blown primer had lodged in the slot in the carrier for the cam pin. It wedged the cam pin out to the side and it was gouging into the receiver. Once the primer was cleared, the rifle was reassembled and it ran fine the rest of the day. Left a pretty good gouge inside the receiver, though.



The same thing happened to me, except it was my brand new AR10(T) upper and the blown primer was from a Federal Gold Match round. Thankfully, I was able to disassemble the rifle and clear the jam without gouging anything.


Tony


(edited to add) ... BTW - screwrdivers are for adjusting a scope and removing screws - if a weapon is jammed that bad, prying on is only going to make things worse.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 5:29:28 AM EST
I don't feel so bad about "mistreating" my AR so bad now. The first time I had my 6721 out after refinishing the upper it must have gotten a small amout of something in the chamber because 1 out of every other mag would hangup and I would have to do what you guys call the "AR Pogo". I hated to do it, but it was the only thing to cleanly reomve the round. (no screwdrivers for me) It took a couple good whacks once or twice to clear the round out. I cleaned it real good with a chamber cleaning brush and I haven't done the AR Pogo since.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 5:46:50 AM EST
rule to self:

NEVER let anyone near my AR's with a screwdriver
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 6:41:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By freshhoarse:

Speaking of screwdrivers and claw hammers...

A bunch of us went to the range on Monday to celebrate the end of the ban. One of the guys brought his newly built RRA/Bushmaster upper. This is his first AR mind you. On the third round the action locks up tight. A friend of mine takes a look at it and tries the AR pogo to no avail. This thing is locked up tight. I recommend using a screwdriver to force the carrier back as a last resort. This didn't work either. My friend took the buttstock off in case it was an issue with the buffer retainer, but couldn't get the receivers apart. After much fiddling around they finally got the receivers to seperate. The carrier was still locked up, though. The bolt was unlocked, however. I again recommended the screwdriver. My friend took the screwdriver and a hammer and began to pound the carrier out the back of the receiver. It was very tight. When he finally got it out we discovered a blown primer had lodged in the slot in the carrier for the cam pin. It wedged the cam pin out to the side and it was gouging into the receiver. Once the primer was cleared, the rifle was reassembled and it ran fine the rest of the day. Left a pretty good gouge inside the receiver, though.



The same thing happened to me, except it was my brand new AR10(T) upper and the blown primer was from a Federal Gold Match round. Thankfully, I was able to disassemble the rifle and clear the jam without gouging anything.


Tony


(edited to add) ... BTW - screwrdivers are for adjusting a scope and removing screws - if a weapon is jammed that bad, prying on is only going to make things worse.



Unfortunately, there was no other way to clear the jam as you couldn't get to the primer from any angle. It was jammed in there good.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 7:22:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 7:27:02 AM EST by Synister1]

Originally Posted By BankerBilly:
Well . . .

did you try to "bump" the rifle first ? ? ?

Here's what I do: With the rifle pointed up, hold the handguards in your left hand and grab the charging handle with your right hand, press the release latch, and pull to the rear.

Then . . . "bump" the butt of the rifle on a solid object, ie: shooting bench. Rifle must be pointed up ! ! May take a few "solid bumps" but I have never seen a rifle that could not be cleared this way.

Hope this helps in the future . . . .




That's what a Marine taught me. 1 good Marine style smack to the ground cleared it right up.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:08:35 AM EST
A Blown primer jamming the carrier is one of the worst non KB malfunctions you can have. It will either fall out as you pound the rifle on the buttplate or when pounding the muzzle on the bench. IF the primer won't come out it's a major PIA to seperate and take the rifle apart to get the jammed primer out and a Hammer and screw driver will most likely be involved.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:35:58 AM EST
That does work, but one must be careful in this situation. Back in 84 I had a good friend who was training in the IDF get out a round stuck in the chamber. Everyone in his tent was working to get it out. When they slammed it on the ground, my dumb friend had his hand over the muzzle. Blamm! Off when a large portion of his palm with a couple of bones. He was also a former US Marine before he immigrated to Israel, so he was well trained. It just takes a stupid moment we've all have from time to time.


Link Posted: 9/19/2004 7:45:58 PM EST
When we have a locked up gun at the range where I volunteer the first thing we do (when called on to help) is grab the appropriate cleaning rod and GENTLY put it down the bore and mark where it stops with a thumb. Next we lay the rod alongside the barrel using the thumb to locate it and check whether the rod reaches the bolt face. That tells you immediately whether there is a round stuck in the chamber or an emptly case. We never rely on the shooter to know, they often don't.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 10:30:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:30:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By FishKepr:

Originally Posted By M11293:
What brand of AR was it?



Colt MT carbine, but we don't think it was the rifle. We tried chambering several other rounds after that one and they all went through the action just fine. Like I said, we suspect an out-of-spec round.



Well of COURSE is was the ammo. Everyone knows Colt is infallible.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:35:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By IronBalaclava:
I dropped one down the hole, pulled back the charging handle and let go. The case got stuck 2/3
down the chamber and the bolt would'nt budge no matter what we did. We also tried to pry open
the bolt with a rusty screwdriver and beating it with the now rattling Bereta knock-off.
No luck. I look over at dude,
and he's just shaking his head about to cry.

I tell him it's the weapons fault, I know the brass is spec and should chamber, even
in a .223 barrel{if not extract), all the while I'm wondering why the hell did he aqquire such a hodge-podge, out of Spec
shit upper, bulit on tin parts.



Wow, I've never heard of a 5.56 chamber so far out of spec that a round would only go 2/3 of the way down the chamber. If I had to guess, I'd say the head ripped off a previous round leaving the brass obstructing the next round from chambering.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 3:44:40 AM EST
i'm familiar with slamming the butt of my weapon on the ground, but haven't done it since i put my vltor collapsable on it. will it reduce my rather expensive stock to plastic bits?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:16:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:

Originally Posted By FishKepr:

Originally Posted By M11293:
What brand of AR was it?



Colt MT carbine, but we don't think it was the rifle. We tried chambering several other rounds after that one and they all went through the action just fine. Like I said, we suspect an out-of-spec round.



Well of COURSE is was the ammo. Everyone knows Colt is infallible.



Some would say the same of Bushmaster

And it sounds like such a familiar failure...
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 4:31:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 4:42:35 PM EST by HK_Shooter_03]

Originally Posted By BankerBilly:
Well . . .

did you try to "bump" the rifle first ? ? ?

Here's what I do: With the rifle pointed up, hold the handguards in your left hand and grab the charging handle with your right hand, press the release latch, and pull to the rear.

Then . . . "bump" the butt of the rifle on a solid object, ie: shooting bench. Rifle must be pointed up ! ! May take a few "solid bumps" but I have never seen a rifle that could not be cleared this way.

Hope this helps in the future . . . .




Can't a rifle AD when you pogo it? I've done it with and unloaded gun and with stuck casings. What happens if you slam a loaded rifle? I'd get a facefull of hot gas with the comp I use for IPSC. How about doing pogo but keep it pointed away from your face and pointing downrange at the backstop. Does anyone else practice a horizontal pogo against a table?
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 5:19:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:


Wow, I've never heard of a 5.56 chamber so far out of spec that a round would only go 2/3 of the way down the chamber. If I had to guess, I'd say the head ripped off a previous round leaving the brass obstructing the next round from chambering.



Either a broken case, or it is not a 5.56/223 chamber. There are other chamberings out there, and this gun could have an oddball caliber. 17's have been around long enough to show up on a parts gun. I saw some cheap on ebay last year.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:13:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
i'm familiar with slamming the butt of my weapon on the ground, but haven't done it since i put my vltor collapsable on it. will it reduce my rather expensive stock to plastic bits?



I doubt it but if it did, I'd get the maker to replace it.



Can't a rifle AD when you pogo it? I've done it with and unloaded gun and with stuck casings. What happens if you slam a loaded rifle?


Not with it being out of battery as it clearly was in this situation.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 6:51:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/20/2004 6:54:51 PM EST by FishKepr]

Originally Posted By DaPhotoGuy:

Originally Posted By FishKepr:

Originally Posted By M11293:
What brand of AR was it?



Colt MT carbine, but we don't think it was the rifle. We tried chambering several other rounds after that one and they all went through the action just fine. Like I said, we suspect an out-of-spec round.



Well of COURSE is was the ammo. Everyone knows Colt is infallible.



Actually we suspected a dirty chamber first.

With the rifle disassembled, he pushed the suspect round in the chamber and it stuck again. That was without even closing the bolt on it. However subsequent rounds worked just fine.
Link Posted: 9/20/2004 7:47:02 PM EST
my gunsmith has a nice Colt M-16 with an colasible stock, 16" barrle and all the goodies, plus a few full cap mags, BUT the damn gun wont chamber anything but NATO stuff, he rebarreled it, but it still wont, i havent a clue why, probly one of those fucked up deals, that why it was being sold in the first place, one NATO hardball is shit for hunting, and two, out here in uppeer New York NATO hardball is rare as 2 oz jars of hens teeth. Please dont tell me i dont know where to look, i have a ruger Mini-14 (which has never jammed BTW.....poke fun at the AR-15 fans...plus mine cost me 300 bucks...he he he) that LOVES NATO spec ammo, but it is hard to find in any great ammount.

Question...why does ammo intended for the Armed Forces in 5.56mm NATO come in boxes of 20 when the mag holds 30????
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