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Posted: 9/28/2004 6:24:51 AM EST
It boasts a $300+ price tag and the barrel is NOT free-floated, so other than the "I'm building an A4" factor, what is the justification of buying this when competitive models like the S.I.R. give more for the same $? Am I missing something here, or is this just a matter of tastes?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:40:44 AM EST
Direct replacement for the standard handguards and the fact that the US Gov't is the primary purchaser likely makes the price so high. If you have the skill to install a FF tube, I'd definitely go that route. If not, YHM makes a more economical rifle length railed handguard set that will do all the KAC M5 does for half the price.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:04:48 AM EST
You're not making a fair comparason when you compare the KAC M5 RAS to any full-floating system. It's construction not only allows it to be installed in the field as a replacement for the standard HG's, it also allows for field installation of the M203, which is what the military was interested in the first place.

The KAC "M4 MATCH (FF) RIFLE R.A.S. - PN: 99167" is their version of a rifle free float HG system and is comparably priced to the S.I.R. It's used by the military on the SPR Mk12 MOD 1.

That said, I agree that KAC stuff is overpriced, but their quality is excellent. Their high prices haven't stopped me from buying an M5 RAS, M4 RAS, M5 FF RAS, 300M & 600M BUIS, and their folding rail-style frt. sight. I 'm quite sure that I could have gone the less expensive route, but I got what I wanted and that's where it's at for me!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:14:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
You're not making a fair comparason when you compare the KAC M5 RAS to any full-floating system. It's construction not only allows it to be installed in the field as a replacement for the standard HG's, it also allows for field installation of the M203, which is what the military was interested in the first place.



I beg to differ. I am wondering why civiallians would have any interest in the M5. It is a fair comparison in that it is a modular handguard and it costs over $300. If a full-floating system is modular and in that price range I find it a comparable product.

You do however, add an element that was not mentioned on their site: that the m203 can be mounted with ease, which at least justifies SOME of its cost (despite the fact that few if any of us have an m 203)



The KAC "M4 MATCH (FF) RIFLE R.A.S. - PN: 99167" is their version of a rifle free float HG system and is comparably priced to the S.I.R. It's used by the military on the SPR Mk12 MOD 1.


Point taken on the fact that there are better RAS models to compare to the SIR FF system, but the illustration I was trying to make was a cost-to-benefit ratio. Also one of the things I didn't like regarding the RAS FF was that you "may" have to reposition the gas block (If I read that correctly) and you have to remove the FS to install it, scratching the shit of your barrel in the process.

Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:20:55 AM EST
What bothers me most about free-float tubes if you've got a regular front sight base is that you can't clean or oil the outside of the barrel without removing the handguards, and free float tubes require you to remove the front sight base in order to remove the tube. Systems like the RAS and the YHM handguards give you rails to mount accessories, allow for much greater ventilation and barrel cooling, and allow you to get to the barrel without a bunhc of tools. I personally like the Troy MRF because it has the rails and the extra vent holes and free floats the barrel yet still allows you to get to the barrel withoutgrabbing hammer and some punches.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:33:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
I personally like the Troy MRF because it has the rails and the extra vent holes and free floats the barrel yet still allows you to get to the barrel withoutgrabbing hammer and some punches.



Impressive product (although I haven't priced it yet). What concerns me from the site is #1 do they even have a 20" version (as all of them look to be carbines) and #2 so they have said 20" config that does NOT require the removal of the front site?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:35:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 7:36:21 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:53:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
I personally like the Troy MRF because it has the rails and the extra vent holes and free floats the barrel yet still allows you to get to the barrel withoutgrabbing hammer and some punches.



Impressive product (although I haven't priced it yet). What concerns me from the site is #1 do they even have a 20" version (as all of them look to be carbines) and #2 so they have said 20" config that does NOT require the removal of the front site?



I paid $260 for the mid length. The rifle length goes for I think $280. Yes, there is a rifle length version. Regardless of length, they all install without removing the front sight base and the bottom section removes without tools for cleaning or to attach an M203.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:59:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
You're not making a fair comparason when you compare the KAC M5 RAS to any full-floating system. It's construction not only allows it to be installed in the field as a replacement for the standard HG's, it also allows for field installation of the M203, which is what the military was interested in the first place.



I beg to differ. I am wondering why civiallians would have any interest in the M5. It is a fair comparison in that it is a modular handguard and it costs over $300. If a full-floating system is modular and in that price range I find it a comparable product.

You do however, add an element that was not mentioned on their site: that the m203 can be mounted with ease, which at least justifies SOME of its cost (despite the fact that few if any of us have an m 203)



The KAC "M4 MATCH (FF) RIFLE R.A.S. - PN: 99167" is their version of a rifle free float HG system and is comparably priced to the S.I.R. It's used by the military on the SPR Mk12 MOD 1.


Point taken on the fact that there are better RAS models to compare to the SIR FF system, but the illustration I was trying to make was a cost-to-benefit ratio. Also one of the things I didn't like regarding the RAS FF was that you "may" have to reposition the gas block (If I read that correctly) and you have to remove the FS to install it, scratching the shit of your barrel in the process.




Apples to oranges! Any direct comparason of a FF HG to one that doesn't full float the barrel is not valid. Full float is designed to enhance accuracy, while the two-piece QD HG's are designed for ease of installation and M203 compatability. A Prius and a Corvette are both cars, but who would compare them directly?

If you're relying on the fact that both HG's have M1913 rails and are approximately in the same price range then you are totally disregarding their intended applications and are judging strictly by cosmetics and cost.

Why would you need to "reposition" the gas block when installing a floating HG? The gas block, or FSB, belongs in only one place. The hole in the gas block MUST be positioned directly over the gas port in the barrel. An AR can't function otherwise. "Scratch the shit" out of your barrel? Not if you know how to work on your AR properly. I question your interpretation of the material that you must be reading! Besides, just how many true FF HG's can be installed without the r&r of the FSB?

If a cost-to-benefit ratio is what you are primarily concerned with I'm sure that there are many products on the market that would be suitable for your needs. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't make the mistake of confusing them with items that have been developed and tested for mil-spec applications. Some of us just want to own the "high-speed" gear, and there's nothing wrong with that either!
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 8:58:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
Besides, just how many true FF HG's can be installed without the r&r of the FSB?


Troy MRF
ARMS SIR
KAC RAS II
The GG&G handguard, whatever they call it.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:01:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
Besides, just how many true FF HG's can be installed without the r&r of the FSB?


Troy MRF
ARMS SIR
KAC RAS II
The GG&G handguard, whatever they call it.



Beat me to it...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:10:31 AM EST
Careful and diligent shopping will get you an M5 RAS. I got two, one for $225 and one for $185. I have since sold one of them, but I keep one for my A4gery rifle - just because it's cool to have what the GIs have. That and if I ever need a rugged and dependable rifle with a rail system that can handle the abuse, as Lumpy pointed out, I will have one in standby.
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 9:41:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By pulpsmack:
It boasts a $300+ price tag and the barrel is NOT free-floated, so other than the "I'm building an A4" factor, what is the justification of buying this when competitive models like the S.I.R. give more for the same $? Am I missing something here, or is this just a matter of tastes?



Why not the Troy MRF-R

Easy to install like the RAS

Free floats like the SIR

Cost less than either, and has True Picatinny rails (unlike the SIR's which do not meet the spec).
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 1:06:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Yojimbo:

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
Besides, just how many true FF HG's can be installed without the r&r of the FSB?


Troy MRF
ARMS SIR
KAC RAS II
The GG&G handguard, whatever they call it.



Beat me to it...




OK, I asked, and you guys told me

But that's still only four out of all the models that require FSB removal?

Also, I understand that the military version of the ARMS SIR requires FSB removal. Is that correct? If so, I wonder why? Just asking - not being sarcastic
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 2:52:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By Str8shot:

Apples to oranges! Any direct comparason of a FF HG to one that doesn't full float the barrel is not valid. Full float is designed to enhance accuracy, while the two-piece QD HG's are designed for ease of installation and M203 compatability. A Prius and a Corvette are both cars, but who would compare them directly?

If you're relying on the fact that both HG's have M1913 rails and are approximately in the same price range then you are totally disregarding their intended applications and are judging strictly by cosmetics and cost.



Ha! nothing like conutering a so-called logical fallacy by presenting a weak analogy argument. Don't fuck with me on logic... I am neck deep in LSAT prep work these days



If a cost-to-benefit ratio is what you are primarily concerned with I'm sure that there are many products on the market that would be suitable for your needs. And there's nothing wrong with that. Just don't make the mistake of confusing them with items that have been developed and tested for mil-spec applications. Some of us just want to own the "high-speed" gear, and there's nothing wrong with that either!


This, on the other hand is a good point. You and Lumpy contend that an asset of the RAS is mil-spec durability. I certainly see a justification for spending $ on a rail system that can withstand severe abuse. MY FOLLOWUP QUESTION then is "are either the SIR or Troy Industry (considerably) less durable than the RAS system?
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 3:33:22 PM EST
If you want something inexpensive you could get some of those first samco guards. they replace the handguards and have rails and they are easy to change. I cant speak for the durability because I dont own any yet but they seem plenty strong...I know they are just modified handguards though and they dont cover the upper and they aren't crap compared to what you guys are talking about but they are an option.

Wes
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 5:05:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Str8shot:
Also, I understand that the military version of the ARMS SIR requires FSB removal. Is that correct?



No that is not correct.

All you need to remove is the Delta ring and the associate spring & clip. A dremel tool with a cutting wheel can take care of that...
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:15:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:49:10 PM EST


Originally Posted By Str8shot:

Apples to oranges! A Prius and a Corvette are both cars, but who would compare them directly?




Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Ha! nothing like conutering a so-called logical fallacy by presenting a weak analogy argument. Don't fuck with me on logic... I am neck deep in LSAT prep work these days



I'm surprised that you didn't catch the irony in that analogy, as smart as you must be .


Link Posted: 9/28/2004 6:49:54 PM EST


Originally Posted By Str8shot:

Apples to oranges! A Prius and a Corvette are both cars, but who would compare them directly?




Originally Posted By pulpsmack:

Ha! nothing like conutering a so-called logical fallacy by presenting a weak analogy argument. Don't fuck with me on logic... I am neck deep in LSAT prep work these days



I'm surprised that you didn't catch the irony in that analogy, as smart as you must be .


Link Posted: 9/28/2004 7:17:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/28/2004 7:18:07 PM EST by Hoplophile]

Originally Posted By Hoplophile:
Troy MRF
ARMS SIR
KAC RAS II
The GG&G handguard, whatever they call it.


There's also a new one from Abrams Research.


But that's still only four out of all the models that require FSB removal?

KAC free-float RAS
Larue
Daniel Defense
YHM regular (also sold by Bushmaster, Rock River, DPMS and others)
YHM lightweight
C-More
Olympic FIRSH
POF Predator.
PRI
Armalite

Am I missing any?

That's 5 that require removal of the FSB compared to 10 that do require it.
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