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Posted: 11/19/2008 8:24:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 8:25:28 PM EDT by Ares337]
I was using the 300 yard sighting target and came up with this. I have never claimed to be an expert marksman by any means, but I can hold my own. I know on the last group I was in a hurry to leave and slapped the piss out of group 4.

Is this acceptable, or do I need way more work?:


Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:32:40 PM EDT
Hm 20 views no comments.



Bump
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:40:44 PM EDT
This depends on what type of AR, ammo, range your shooting at, and point of aim. if i recall you shoot the 300 military zero at 37 yds, and the squares are 1/2". Its been awhile since i shot at it. A better test is to shoot at 100yds, 5 to 10 shot groups. This will give you a good idea of where your at. With a good gun and good ammo you should be easily within one inch group at this range.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:45:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 8:46:09 PM EDT by Ares337]
It was re-manufactured ammunition from Rafter Seven, as far as my AR goes, what are you referring to? And yea, I was only doing 3 shot groups


ETA: With Hornady V-Max bullets
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 8:57:15 PM EDT
like i said there are alot of factors, Minute of angle, approx 1" at 100yds is the base for precision. I'm not familiar with the brand, but i've had less than great luck with remanufactured ammo.

As far as the AR goes, is it just a standard ar-15, or the varminter set up?

Just a point of reference, I consistently shoot sub-inch groups at 300yds, with my precision rifle and hornady factory ammo, with my bushmaster varminter consistantly sub-inch at 100 yds with my own reloads, however the last time i sighted in with an M4 with gov't issue ammo, at 50 yds i couldn't group better than 2 1/2 inches.

The biggest variable is probably ammo. if you want good groups you have to pay or do it yourself.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 9:44:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2008 9:45:18 PM EDT by 0699TeufelHnd]
How far from the target were you?

Did you make any sight adjustments between groups or were all fired with the same dope?

What was your aiming point? Center Mass?
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 10:04:30 PM EDT
Nothing less than one single hole is acceptable. Keep practicing!

Link Posted: 11/19/2008 10:35:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 0699TeufelHnd:
How far from the target were you?

Did you make any sight adjustments between groups or were all fired with the same dope?

What was your aiming point? Center Mass?


I setup @ the 25 yard line, after posting this I realized that I was wrong in doing so BUT. I adjusted between groups and I was aiming for center mass.
Link Posted: 11/19/2008 11:59:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2008 12:01:38 AM EDT by 12_gauge]
Originally Posted By Ares337:
Originally Posted By 0699TeufelHnd:
How far from the target were you?

Did you make any sight adjustments between groups or were all fired with the same dope?

What was your aiming point? Center Mass?


I setup @ the 25 yard line, after posting this I realized that I was wrong in doing so BUT. I adjusted between groups and I was aiming for center mass.



At 25 yards open sights, you could use some work ( I refer to group 4, but you already said you knew you messed it up).

The other groups aren't bad. With open sights at 25 yards on 300m simulated targets from a seated position I can usually do 18-20/20 within the sillhouette in under a minute and a half. I have never done time in the service and I consider myself a noob.

Try shooting 5 or better yet, 10 shot groups before adjusting your sights once you get "close". You will burn more ammo, but have more confidence/a better zero.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 1:49:48 AM EDT
Thanks for the input, I was running REALLY low on ammo (2 mags worth) so I didn't want to burn to terrible much up.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 4:46:33 AM EDT
Get a good bench, sandbags and get her sighted in good at 25. If your not good at 25 you will be worse at further ranges. I personally zeroed my AR at 50 yards and feel real confident out to 300.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 5:18:38 AM EDT
If you can keep your hits (3) in a 1 inch square from position shooting, prone, sitting, standing, not bench rested, you have the ability to hit a man sized target at 500 yds., if you learn to read the wind and know the trajectory of your ammo. This is assuming rack grade rifle and surplus ammo, and iron sights. You can certainly shoot better than 4 moa, as we all can. If you're using a scope, you should be able to shrink that to 2 moa or better.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 5:23:59 AM EDT
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
If you can keep your hits (3) in a 1 inch square from position shooting, prone, sitting, standing, not bench rested, you have the ability to hit a man sized target at 500 yds., if you learn to read the wind and know the trajectory of your ammo. This is assuming rack grade rifle and surplus ammo, and iron sights. You can certainly shoot better than 4 moa, as we all can. If you're using a scope, you should be able to shrink that to 2 moa or better.



This stuff is straight from an Appleseed. If possible, the OP should attend.

I am not in favor of sighting in from a bench. It needs to be done from a sling or free hand. People use a very different position from a bench than sling or free hand. I know of no gunfights that have been fought from a shooting bench.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:04:23 AM EDT
Ditto on the Appleseed. But my Father taught me the majority of those techniques, he was one of the range instructors at Ft. Benning during the Korean war. He learned most of his skills before the army from his father who also instructed me, that served in World War one, and was just a plain country boy from monroe n.c. (born 1888), that had to shoot to keep food on the table. Appleseed just goes back to the basics, ( plus more advanced skills), that we have abandoned.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 6:11:16 AM EDT
Besides, your sling changes your point of impact and you should learn that as well for each position and for clean bore vs. dirty bore, as your first shot could be your only one, and cold vs. hot, and of course your cold dirty vs. cold clean. Some guns can be as much as 3 or so moa difference in those variables, which at 300 yards could be as much as 9 inches, and at 500 15 inches, putting you completely off target. Most rifles aren't quite that much and some are off very little, but I've seen a few that were that far off. Mostly Garands and other wood stocked weapons that need to be bedded and accurized.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 9:14:05 AM EDT
Well, you already mentioned that you basically threw group #4 away.

For the other groups, what I see is two shots grouped pretty much into one hole or close to it, and a third shot a little way away from the other two.

I bet the shot that is away from the other two shots of the group is the first shot of your 3-shot group. You shot that first shot very carefully, but then recoil caused a slight shift in your NPOA, causing the second two shots to group away from the first.

If you were shooting from a prone or sitting position using a loop sling, I would say that you need to work on you NPOA, and maybe get that sling a little tighter.

If shooting from a bipod or a sandbag rest off of a bench or something....I don't know, as I never shoot that way.

Shooting from a bench is a good way to determine the mechanical accuracy of your rifle, but that is not the same as practical accuracy. Practical accuracy is how well YOU can sight and hold the rifle under field conditions. Unless, of course, you carry a bench into the field with you.
Link Posted: 11/20/2008 11:24:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2008 11:24:52 PM EDT by Ares337]
I have a single point sling I don't use during prone shooting at all, and I was shooting from prone with my right arm (I shoot left handed) stabilizing the front of the gun. Also, I've had NPOA explained to me, but how it was explained was very vague, can someone maybe help me understand it a little better?
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 6:30:36 AM EDT
Bump for morning crew
Link Posted: 11/21/2008 8:13:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2008 8:26:38 AM EDT by tpelle]
Originally Posted By Ares337:
I have a single point sling I don't use during prone shooting at all, and I was shooting from prone with my right arm (I shoot left handed) stabilizing the front of the gun. Also, I've had NPOA explained to me, but how it was explained was very vague, can someone maybe help me understand it a little better?


The NPOA concept is this:

1. You must get into a stable "bone-supported" position, instead of holding the sights on the target with muscle power. The idea is simply this: Muscles have arteries running through them and feeding them, and each time your heart beats your muscles will jump a little. If you "muscle" the sights on target, you will never achieve your most steady hold, because your sights will "bounce" with each heartbeat. Also, muscles fatigue, especially when asked to hold a heavy object very still, and when you "muscle" your sights on target, you POI will drift a little as your muscles become tired. Finally, it is simply human nature, at the point that the trigger breaks, to slightly relax your hold, thereby throwing your POI off (you do this subconsciously). In a bone-supported position you try to achieve a position where the rifle is supported entirely by bone against bone against bone against the ground ("The leg bone connected to the thigh bone, the thigh bone connected to the.......you get the picture.) No muscles involved.

2. There are several ways to verify a good bone-supported position. One way is, after you get into position and have your sights on target, close your eyes, relax, take two breaths, then open your eyes. If your position is good, your sights will be on target when you open your eyes. If they are not, you shift your entire body to bring the sights on target. Verify again, move again, over and over, until you have it pegged. After doing this for a while, with practice, you can usually drop into position and be either on target or pretty close.

3. The advantage of NPOA is, after each shot, when you "fall" back into position after recoil, you will find your sights to right back on target. (I used to love shooting from the sitting position with my M1 Garand. With each shot, as my whole body rocked back under recoil, when I rocked back into position my sights would drop right back on to the target.)

4. The single-point sling you are using is useless as a shooting aid in any long-range situation. It's a CQB sling, and may have its uses if you are clearing rooms, manning a roadblock where you are checking peoples ID's and credentials, etc. It has no place in long distance shooting. You must use some sort of sling that can be formed into a loop sling - a G.I. web sling, which can be found for less than $10.00, is pretty good, and a 1907 leather (or Biothane, now) sling is best. Get one. Learn to use it. CQB equipment and shooting at 100 yards plus are simply incompatible concepts - like driving tacks with a sledgehammer. With a good solid bone-supported position, NPOA, and a decent sling properly used, you can shoot from prone and sitting just about as well as you can shoot from a bench with a sandbag rest.

Here's a true story about NPOA:

A Marine Corps Team member was shooting in the National Championships at Camp Perry back in the '80's. He was shooting an M14, and at that time there were no regulations regarding mandatory use of eye protection - and he wasn't using any. If I recall correctly, he was shooting the 300 yard rapid-fire prone stage, where you fire two shots from one magazine, reload with a fresh magazine, and fire eight more shots. He had fired the first two rounds, did his reload, and on his third shot from the new magazine had the ejected cartridge bounce back and hit him right on the right eyeball! Both of his eyes slammed tightly shut and started watering profusely, so he was effectively blinded. But because he had a good NPOA he stayed on the line, and fired his remaining 5 shots. When his target was scored, he had all 10's except for one shot that he dropped into the 9-ring. (He didn't win the championship though.)

If you get a chance, attend an Appleseed shoot. NPOA and sling usage will be explained, demonstrated, and practiced in much more detail than I can explain here. BTW, one of the exercises you will do at an Appleseed shoot is to get into a good prone position with NPOA, close your eyes, and shoot a 10-shot string on target with your eyes closed.

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