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Posted: 12/7/2005 6:01:45 PM EDT
I got this off of another board. Its pretty interesting and I think a professional comparison of the Sig v. M4 from the standpoint of the user. For all of you Sig lovers, read teh last paragraph. It will make your day.




Posted 07 December 2005 18:50
The SIG rep came to the range today and I got a chance to shoot a few of these. I probably ran about 500 rounds through them, mostly through 2 552s, though there was one 551 and a GSR (or Revolution or whatever they are calling it) Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth.

I want to be clear that I have no bias against SIG. I carry a SIG handgun every day, and trusted my SIGs so much that I bought both of my SIGs from my agency when we traded up for the rail models.

The GSR shot well. We are also looking at going to a 1911 for a tactical handgun. Frankly, I had to look down at the slide to tell this one apart from the other 1911s at the range. Just get me a nice one...

As to the rifles, the weapons are well made and have the typical SIG attention to detail. They have a nice finish, are fitted out well and point and move well.

All that being said, there were many things that I did not like about them, at least when stacked up against my M4. Most are minor gripes, though, and things I could work around in time.

The trigger was nice and broke clean. I was annoyed by the winter trigger guard constantly rotating to the side. This could be a wear issue; the rep said these weapons had about 30K through them.

I still hate the AK magazine release, maybe even a little more now. This definetely releases a little cleaner and easier than other AKs though. I found that it seemed to work best by hitting the whole assembly with the web of my left hand while simulataneously pulling and tossing the magazine down. This one will take a few hundred (or thousand) repetitions to get it firmly burned into muscle memory, I imagine.

The bolt release/hold open could be a little bigger.

The length of pull on the stock is too long, by about 4". If you are using center of chest (HK method) or are wearing lots of armor, getting a consistent cheek weld is going to be an issue. It will also be tough to get correct eye relief with an ACOG, at least for me. On my M4, I run the ACOG most of the way bag with just enough room for an ARMS 40, stock collapsed, and that seems to work.

The top railed versions sit a little too high to co-witness irons when using an EOTech or an Aimpoint. That is a "no go" for Patrol use for us, as our requirements (which could change, of course), are that irons be immediately available upon getting it out of the rack.

The forend railed 552 will mount a PEQ-2 on the sides , but there isn't really enough on the top if you are running any optics. (I brought an EOTech, ACOG and a PEQ to make sure). If you are running it on the side, you had better have a VFG, because you won't have much room to hold the weapon. M4s are pretty much gulity of this, too, if you are mounting on the sides.

The selector lever is difficult to get to, like the MP5s, without breaking you grip or stance. Since our doctrine is changing to weapons on "SAFE" unless actually shooting, I can see this being a problem. The selector also only seems to have about 30 dgrees of arc (though I could be wrong) for all four selectable positions, meaning that one could easily (and I did) dial it past SEMI to 3 or 20.

The 552 had some serious muzzle blast, too. We were shooting some M4 at the range, too, and I noticed that the 552, while still quite controllable, seemed to be moving a lot more, probably the result of that big Kalashnikov op rod and bolt moving. It was still shootable, but it could have been better.

Two SIG magazines will not fit in a double M16/M4 MOLLE pouch.

I also had a malfunction with each of the 552s, demonstrating why having the bolt handle on the right side is not fun.

All of those I could live with. The 8.9" barrel is just way too short. As I looked into a bit more, I realized that many duty loads were going to moving out of the 552 at .22 Magnum velocities. Not too nice, in the grand scheme.

All of that aside, I could live with the 551. The 552 is a toy because of its shortness.

Take it with a grain of salt, but the SIG rep had some interesting information. He said that SIG is starting domestic production in early 2006 of the 550, 551 and 552 for LE sales in the US and will no longer be importing them from Europe. He said the primary reason is because of "supply problems" with getting parts shipped from SIGARMS to SIG USA(which probably really refers to the fight between the execs in Europe and the ones in the US). While that is old news, for the most part, he said that they will be producing the 550 for civilian sales in the United States and they should be available in the spring, and that the target price for LE and civilian sales in the US is "under $1000," to be competitive with the ARs. He also said that the new SIG USA CEO (who apparently just came from Kimber) has told them to sell all of the Swiss-made 551s and 552s in their inventory in New Hampshire. While the 552s are mostly gone, there are several hundred 551s available to LE agencies for $999.

Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:11:47 PM EDT
I would love to have a 551, especially if they will be marketed at under $1K - its conceivable due to stamped receivers. I hope they capitalize on the market - I would beg steal or borrow the $1K for it if introduced. Heck, if they actually do this I WILL BUY TWO OF THEM. But I will say this, the FNC is probably a more user-friendly piece. I've had a couple of them and found them great weapons (although the original 1-10 twist leaves a little to be desired with todays bullets).
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 6:13:07 PM EDT
I'de love to have a Sig 551
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 8:09:33 PM EDT
Here here on the SIG 551. It's already got a 14in barrel. Maybe we'll get lucky and SIG will throw 16's on there. If not.. Pin + Weld a Phantom 5C1... Wow.

I think I just soiled myself.

06 will be a wild ass year for gunowners. FNC's, SCAR, F2000, P90, and the SIG550/551. Dear lord this is gonna rule. My poor checkbook!
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 8:17:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/7/2005 10:44:16 PM EDT by JohnTheTexican]
I'll probably have to get a couple to sit in the safe with all the ARs, AKs, and FALs that I never shoot.
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:00:20 PM EDT




<------sig line says it all
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 9:21:27 PM EDT
I've shot SIG carbines and I am a fan, but to be totally honest it just doesnt stack well against the AR15. Not bias or loyalty. Just really hold it and work the controls and it is clear the AR15 is more user friendly. I like the lack of fouling in the SIG, but that one benefit does not outweigh all the other benefits the AR15 has.

I would buy one though, if the price wasnt insane. I doubt sig would sell a long gun in the USA for less than 1000 bucks when they have handguns that cost nearly that much
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 10:02:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hired_Gun:
I've shot SIG carbines and I am a fan, but to be totally honest it just doesnt stack well against the AR15. Not bias or loyalty. Just really hold it and work the controls and it is clear the AR15 is more user friendly. I like the lack of fouling in the SIG, but that one benefit does not outweigh all the other benefits the AR15 has.

I would buy one though, if the price wasnt insane. I doubt sig would sell a long gun in the USA for less than 1000 bucks when they have handguns that cost nearly that much



+1
Link Posted: 12/7/2005 10:14:47 PM EDT
I love my PE90/Sig550... ok it is blue but it is mine and it was cheaper to buy on the used market in this color

I'm setting it up with a better scope and mount now but this is a pic of it with my service comp AR15:

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 12:06:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By HeadDamage:
I love my PE90/Sig550... ok it is blue but it is mine and it was cheaper to buy on the used market in this color

I'm setting it up with a better scope and mount now but this is a pic of it with my service comp AR15:

www.telusplanet.net/public/envi/BlueAndGreen.jpg




I'd get that thing refinished if I were you!


I'm really hoping the US 550/551 becomes a reality. Dream come true for me, since I can't afford a $10,000 Swiss 551.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 2:34:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 2:35:56 AM EDT by Blanco_Diablo]
Oh man...the SIG 550 on top of the US made AUGs??? And Drake are us civvies seriously gonna get new FNC's, F2000s, SCARs, and P90s?? Oh man after this next AR I have to save up...

ETA: Would there be any chance for some SIG 551's and 552's?
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 2:45:08 AM EDT
This is interesting.

Can somebody fill me in on the FNC bit though? That's the only one that I havn't heard anything about, as far as possible civy sales in the US.

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 2:51:45 AM EDT
What's not to like?

Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:16:50 AM EDT
I have shot my AR15 and SIG551 about the same amount, I have no muscle-memory or training bias toward either. My assessment is as follows:

Optics - both of mine are set up with mid-range (500yds) optics, not CQB. To bring AR irons to bear I have to remove the scope and flip-up irons. To bring SIG551 irons to bear I have to pull off the cheek piece and look through see-through scope mounts. SIG irons are vastly superior, can't imagine how they can afford them on a service rifle. Advantage to SIG.

Magazines - Aluminium AR mags can dent and cause problems, SIG mags can break and cause big problems. AR mags are more compact and easier to store/carry. Advantage to AR.

Magazine removal - ARs are dropped with the press of a button by the trigger finger, SIG mags are removed with the left hand and thumb. AR is faster. Advantage to AR.

Selector - ARs are easy to flip with the thumb, It is faster to disengage the SIG with the thumb and re-engage with the index finger - no clear advantage to either effort. SIGs are ambidextrous. Small advantage to SIG.

Stock - ARs can adjust LOP for body armour but can't fold properly for storage/packing/slinging. SIGs fold smaller but can't adjust LOP for body armour. IF I wore body armour I'd just shorten the SIG stock and still have it folding. Big advantage to SIG.

Trigger - AR triggers suck, mine has a JP match trigger that needs re-adjusting occassionally. The SIG trigger is a 3-stage match trigger that is miles ahead of a standard AR. Advantage to SIG.

Pistol grip - AR pistol grips are too short, many ARs wear custom grips. SIG pistol grips are great. Advantage to SIG.

Modularity. AR development is driven by huge US civilian sales to descriminating shooters. SIG doesn't let anyone mess with their guns and build it so you can't. Advantage to AR.

Reliability. Always a sticking point with the AR. My AR stops running occassionally, MY SIG never has. Advantage to SIG.

Cocking lever. ARs can be cocked/cleared with either hand, SIGs require right hand. Advantage to AR.

Accuracy. My AR wears a heavy barrel and will shoot 3/4" with factory ammo. The SIG barrel options are limited; mine is standard and will shoot about 1.5" with same ammo. Advantage to AR.

Fit & Finish. Not terribly important in a service rifle, different but equal on both guns. No advantage to either.

I shoot my AR alot more than my SIG in 9x19 and .22LR because it is fun and I like to play gunsmith and customise the gun. If I shot .223 exclusively and had to depend on a rifle I'd chose the SIG. It isn't perfect and I believe I could build a custom Valmet or Galil with all the best features of both except the AR mag release - that's my next project.







Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:46:56 AM EDT
Monkey-man, I've never seen a real SIG, so I can't compare the two. But what makes the SIG irons so much better than the AR's? I've always thought a peep and post was an excellent combo on the AR's.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:16:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 4:27:11 AM EDT by MP_LT]
I can speak with a little knowledge.

I attended a Swiss Mountaineering/Border Control Course last year in Switzerland. I was sent by my unit. Anyway we carried the SIG 550/ or the version their army uses for the course. We also did day and night fire with the rifle.

After reading and seeing photos of the rifle and drooling for years it was a bit of a disappointment. While I would buy one if available/affordable in the States I would still stick with my M4 which I am issued.

The rifle is front heavy, the bipod legs are annoying, they get caught on things especially web gear. The front site post is to thick, rear sight was nice but nothing which really outclassed the M4, it is 'cooler' but functionally don't see much improvement. While the stock can be folded, it is basically useless folded so besides being compact for storing etc no large improvement. I don't see how you can get any more smaller or handier than the M4. The mags were nice, the mag changes slower and mounting optics is definitly not nearly as easy or convient. As for reliability, of course it will win over the M4 but as long as I kept my M4 relatively clean it functioned fine and I talk from deployment experience from Afghanistan. The SIG is already front heavy by the time one would add a PEQ2/4, flashlight, grip, bipod it will be much more front heavy than a M4.

So my two cents, its definitly a nice rifle but I would take the battle proven M4 over the SIG.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:26:26 AM EDT
If I had one of those stupid SIGS, I'd sell it and get two or three ARs.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:32:28 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mtchristman:
Monkey-man, I've never seen a real SIG, so I can't compare the two. But what makes the SIG irons so much better than the AR's? I've always thought a peep and post was an excellent combo on the AR's.



MC, the SIG rear sights are a rotating drum like an HK with a welded base. The different positions of the drum have peeps of 3 sizes and a square notch similar to a pistol with tritium inserts on both sides. The entire mechanism is adjustable for windage and elevation and is built like a swiss watch but with tank-sized parts. The front sight is a simple post with a flip-up tritium post to cover it. The shroud is perfectly circular and functions like a 'ring within a ghost ring' when used with the rear peep. Out past 100yds you wouldn't even need the post, the double ring could put you on a man-sized target much quicker. Very well though out and very effective. I have a rack full of 100 years of military rifles, the AR sights haven't evolved much from the old No4Mk1, Garand or M14 peep sights, the SIG would be difficult to improve.



Link Posted: 12/8/2005 4:46:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By MP_LT:
I can speak with a little knowledge.

I attended a Swiss Mountaineering/Border Control Course last year in Switzerland. I was sent by my unit. Anyway we carried the SIG 550/ or the version their army uses for the course. We also did day and night fire with the rifle.

After reading and seeing photos of the rifle and drooling for years it was a bit of a disappointment. While I would buy one if available/affordable in the States I would still stick with my M4 which I am issued.

The rifle is front heavy, the bipod legs are annoying, they get caught on things especially web gear.

So my two cents, its definitly a nice rifle but I would take the battle proven M4 over the SIG.



MP, with all due respect to your battle experience (of which I have none), your comparison is apples and oranges. The 551 (in my pics above) is the length/weight/task equivalent to your M4, the 550 is the longer/heavier one like the M16A2. As I hinted, over 50 different types of battle rifles in my safe spanning a century and none is perfect (although I do believe a near-perfect one could be built). The reliability of the SIG is its most important feature I think, maybe the piston ARs solve that problem but I have no experience. I'm an HK LE regional dealer and I still can't get hold of one of those uppers.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 6:40:28 AM EDT
Monkey, I do not know if those pics work for you, but all I get are red X's.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:18:22 PM EDT
I have to admit that my two favorite rifles are the AR-15 (M4) and the Sig 550s and 540s.
Here's a picture of me shooting a 550 in Switzerland.
The SIG 550 incorporates some of the best design features from the best rifles. It uses the long-stroke gas piston and carrier of the AK-47 for reliability, the adjustable gas system of the FN FAL, the clamshell design of the AR-15 for ease of maintenance, and the sights from the HK G3 (only better). It has an ergonomic side-folding stock, ambi controls, an excellent trigger, it's accurate and it's got great looks to boot.
The Sig 550's only drawbacks are its weight, the charging handle on the wrong side of the receiver, the AK-47 style magazine release, and its cost. It is a heavy rifle and an expensive rifle. Even in Europe the civilian versions sell for nearly 3000 Euro.
I actually prefer the 551 version or the older 543, as I am partial to carbines. I've had a chance to shoot the Chilean made SIG 543 with the Rangers in Portugal. It's a good weapon and very similar to the 550s, only it uses a tubular steel folding buttstock like the Congo FAL, and it uses steel magazines instead of the translucent plastic ones of the 550 series. The front sights are also slightly different and there might be some minor internal differences.
I would love to see SIG produce the 550s in the States for civilian use. I'd be first in line to buy one. However, I've very skeptical of the "under $1000" price tag. My gut tells me that if it comes out, it'll be three times that much. I hope I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:39:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By markm:
If I had one of those stupid SIGS, I'd sell it and get two or three ARs.



800
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:45:49 PM EDT
I wish these rumors would be proven true. For years now, "SIG Representatives" have been quoted through the grape vine as saying Swiss Arms will allow SIG to make them here. Don't mind my skepticism as I've heard these rumors for years now.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 3:47:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olds442tyguy:
I wish these rumors would be proven true. For years now, "SIG Representatives" have been quoted through the grape vine as saying Swiss Arms will allow SIG to make them here. Don't mind my skepticism as I've heard these rumors for years now.



We will know if they are for real or not when Shot 2006 rolls around. If they plan to release them, I'm sure they will say so at Shot Show.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 10:44:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/8/2005 10:45:10 PM EDT by greentips]
I don't know about you....but cleaning the SIG is like cleaning the M249/Minimi

It's tedious and annoying.
Link Posted: 12/8/2005 10:55:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JohnTheTexican:
I'll probably have to get a couple to sit in the safe with all the ARs, AKs, and FALs that I never shoot.




If you never shoot them you should sell them to...........well,me
Link Posted: 1/11/2006 10:19:45 PM EDT
Please oh please let it be true. Give us an SG551 for the masses. Even if it cost $2000 it wouldnt cost me that much because lots of AR15's would get traded in the process
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 3:48:24 AM EDT
From the SWAT roundup in Orlando last year at the Sig table. I didnt want to leave the table.







Link Posted: 1/12/2006 4:45:34 AM EDT



i'm specifically saving my pennies just in case the US SG55X or the US AUG ever appear.

if they do, i'll buy 2 of each.


Link Posted: 1/12/2006 10:03:28 AM EDT
I would love to own a SIG 551 rifle. However, I would like to have a .308 SIG 550 or B&T rifle before a .223 model.

Chris
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