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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 7/6/2003 8:02:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 7:46:22 AM EST by ducati650]
I had a chance to shot my 18", 1:7 twist SPR (Mk12 Mod 1) at Quantico yesterday. This is the first chance I've had to shoot it at more than 50 yards (NRA Headquarter's Indoor Range). We were on range 1 at the base and it had berms at 50, 100 and 300 yards. Conditions were very hot 95+ with high humidity. We got there at about 10 and shot until about 3:30. My SPR with Leupold 3.5-10x40 LR M1 was sighted in at 50 yds. from my last outing at the NRA range. It was spot-on putting 5 rounds into one 1/4" hole. I was shooting Black Hills re-man 68 gr OTM. There have been a number of posts about MV, etc. of the Heavy OTM from SPR barrels so I thought I would post the results of my experiment.
I've been unable thus far to get MV numbers for this round from an 18" barrel so I did some comparisons to BH 75 gr OTM from an 18.25" barrel and from both the 68 and 75 gr BH rounds form 20" and 24" barrels from data on Hornady's site and AR15.com. I guessed that the MV for the 68 gr. would be about 2737 fps from my 18" barrel. Using the JBM calulator, on-line, I worked up an expected ballistic path for the 68 gr. OTM from my SPR and a 50 yds zero. The 50 yard zero seemed to be about right for a 200 yard zero also.

Distance (yds) 50 100 200 300 400 500
Drop (in MOA) 0.0 +1.4 0.0 -2.7 -6.1 -10.2

At the range, I set the elevation knob down to -1.5 moa and took a few shots at 100 yards. Very close but a little high. I ended up dropping 1 more click to -1.75 and this was just a little low. We are talking very small differences here so I was happy that it was close to my predicted setting.

I then dial to +2.75 and the first shot at 300 yards took the "X" out of the center of the Shoot-N-See 12" target. Very unexpected and lucky. Many of the additional shots were inside the 3" circle. As the day went on, it got hotter and it seemed that the rounds were hitting a bit higher. Don't know if the temp or fatigue on my part was the reason.

Anyway, it was a lot of fun and I hope to get together with Forest to crony my SPR with 68 and 75 gr. BH OTM. This is all very new to me as most of my previous shooting has been at much shorter ranges with CQB weapons. Any insights would be appeciated.

Link Posted: 7/6/2003 11:22:30 AM EST
Bling Bling!
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 1:58:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 3:14:35 PM EST by ducati650]
HR, Bling Bling? Not exactly sure what you are trying to say. Ed
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 6:15:10 PM EST
Bling! Bling!=nice and tight setup with a lot of bells and whistles...in this case. Bling! Bling!, I think, really means you're sporting a lot of jewelry, i.e., bright diamonds, shiny gold, etc. It's a hip-hop term.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 2:27:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 11:28:57 AM EST by ducati650]
Thanks 04. Don't quite get it as this is about as close the Mark 12 Mod 1 SPR being issued to certain troops as you can get right now. The VLTOR stock is because I like the cheek weld but the rest is pretty much issue. Maybe HR is confusing this with some Airsoft toys.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 3:10:21 AM EST
I've confused nothing... its a nice rig, but its still a pimped out AR. Kind of like in the Fast and the Furious when they took a $15,000 Honda Civic and dumped $100,000 into accessories for it. Its a great gun, but look at its humble roots as a weapon and look at it now.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 5:36:11 AM EST
This modification to the M16 was done to provide the Squad Advanced Marksman with a weapon that was more accurate over longer distances than the M16 but was still lighter and less expensive than the Mark 11 Mod 0 (SR25). This was accomplished by mounting a more accurate barrel to the M16A4 upper and free floating it with a PRI carbon fiber tube (Mod 0) or KAC FF RAS (Mod 1). The compensator is also the mount for the accuracy improving OPS Inc. silencer. The optics and bi-pod are pretty standard marksman items. Your Bling Bling comment infers unneeded fluff or decoration. If you look at the intended purpose of the Mk12, it would seem that these additions are no more bling than the radio in your car or Aimpoint on your M4. To each, his own. There is a lot of room under the AR tent for all of us. Ed
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 6:33:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By HiramRanger: I've confused nothing... its a nice rig, but its still a pimped out AR. Kind of like in the Fast and the Furious when they took a $15,000 Honda Civic and dumped $100,000 into accessories for it. Its a great gun, but look at its humble roots as a weapon and look at it now.
View Quote
This from a guy who mostly shoots monkey-built Century Arms products[:D]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:44:34 AM EST
Ducati650- Awsome weapon!!! Have you thought about the Black hills 77gr. BTHP in Red Box? My Sr-15 loves that ammo.Its absolutely accurate. Have fun with your new set-up Jm03
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 9:35:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 9:47:14 AM EST by ducati650]
Thanks '03. I put it together with parts and guidance from Wes at MSTN. I plan to try the 75 and the 77 gr. soon. I usually shoot 100 rounds or more every weekend so the costs start to add up. Once I get better, I'll move to better ammo. Up until joining the Quantico Shooting Club, I've only had a 50 yard range to use. This is what I got a couple of weeks ago at 50 yds. with 5 rounds of the 68gr. when I did everything right (not as often as I would like). The hole right on the crossing lines was my point of aim and the remaining 4 shots were just a bit to the right, as you can see. [img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/65524/GKUNH-tar1b.JPG[/img] I never shot like this before getting this SPR. I mostly bang away with an M4gery. This could get addictive! This past Saturday was my first visit to Quantico as a member. Getting to shoot at 100 and 300 yards was a gas. Boy, do I need practice. Thanks again, Ed
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 10:35:12 AM EST
Bling Bling indeed.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 11:12:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 11:20:07 AM EST by ducati650]
Dingus, Considering your large number of posts and the insight you must have into what it takes to make an accurate rifle, I appreciate you taking time away from your Airsoft Sniper Training classes to share your thoughts with us. If you would care to elaborate, I'm sure we would like to hear how you installed a real metal barrel tube on your Toko Marui AK47 and turned it into a real bitch'n man-splatterer. Just having fun with you, no offense meant.[;D] Ed
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 12:26:47 PM EST
ducati650, thanks for sharing your range exp with us. I do not find your rifle to be "blingified". Quite the contrary if you ask me.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 1:52:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 7/16/2003 2:21:50 PM EST by Va_Dinger]
I would not worry about the "bling" replies. The authors of those posts have absolutely no clue, if they labeled your rifle with "bling". Just for everyone's knowledge, Mr.ducati650's SPR is an EXACT MK12 Mod1, Knights Armament equipped version( Navy SEALS). Except for the VLTOR stock. He also has the improvements needed for accuracy: Douglas barrel, Hard chromed bolt carrier, Fitted bolt, Match trigger, etc. Yes it has the goodies, but so do the SPR's in the field right now in Iraq. Are they "bling" also? Now if someone buys all the goodies and skips the true accuracy enhancements, that's a "bling" rifle. Ducati650's SPR is the real deal.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 1:57:01 PM EST
Ed: Nice rifle, and it shoots. I second the recommendation for 77 gr Black hills, mine loves them, but practically spits the 75's sideways. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=9365[/img]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 2:06:34 PM EST
Nothing to say with your SPR other than it is gorgeous! For now, for my accurate shooting I have a bolt action. Here is a 200 yard target, 4 shots into 7/8" in .308, HS Precision bolt action rifle. I have an M16A1 carbine which is not really for accuracy. I might get an accurate upper for it. Sure do like the looks of that SPR! [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid61/p90cf6e3331ce794d9d76ff466c8e7d36/fc2ab58a.jpg[/img] Here are some 100 yard targets: [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid50/p371c5959ae3b0b6b736ab0173297de2b/fcaa818b.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 2:49:20 PM EST
Polyak. Thanks. Va_Dinger. I appreciate you comments. I'm not bothered by the blingers. I just couldn't resist having some fun. When someone looks at an SPR and thinks the enhancements are bling, it tell you a lot obout them. bsbg. Very nice. I've read others have trouble with the 75 gr. but love the 77. Maybe I'll jump right to 77. faldoc, very nice shooting. Ed
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 3:05:03 PM EST
AWESOME looking rifle! [wow]
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 3:46:14 PM EST
D50, I would say bling bling too, because I am jealous as hell. I want ALL the BELLS and WHISTLES you have. You have a really nice firearm there and the targets show that it is not just for show but for go. Keep us posted about the Black Hills ammo.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:02:24 AM EST
TO ALL THE HATERS: There seems to be some confusion. All the "Bling Bling" means is that "money aint a thing". There is no need to take offense to it. I like to dress up my AR just as much as the next guy, there isn't anything wrong with that. To answer the question concerning soldiers in Iraq Bling Blinging with this rifle, no their rifle was paid for by the US Govt, it is a tool, no Bling involved. Bling Bling involves flossing, which is what ducati650 is doing here with his pictures--showing off his rifle. A necessary tool in one case (Soldier in Iraq) a toy in another (ducati650). I just don't get it, why do you all have to be so negative? I basically give you a compliment on your rifle and I get slammed with insults. Your negative attitudes and comments make me wonder why I am even posting here. --Dan
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 6:12:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/8/2003 6:13:32 AM EST by ducati650]
Dangus, Chill a little. Didn't mean to push your buttons so much. First off, you know nothing about the intended use for this rifle. True, I'm probably not a soldier in Iraq but beyond that you know nothing about me. Second, this rifle is a tool. You are correct. The function of this tool is to reach out and hit targets, of any type, at distances beyond the normal M16's envelope. To that end, this rifle, the Mk12 has no fluff. Everything on it is there to make it perform as designed. Does it have more attachments than a CAR15? Yes. Each tool has the configuration needed to comlete the mission. When you look at a weapon system like this and call it bling-bling, it is not a compliment. It tells everybody that knows anything about Advanced Marksmans' Rifles that you don't have a clue in the area in which you are rendering a opinion. One look at it, and many of the other's photos posted, should have told you a lot about it. You are probably a nice guy with a lot to offer. If I over reacted to your "compliment", I'm sorry. Sort of like somebody looking at your woman and saying, "Best looking whore I've seen in a long time." Even if meant as a honest compliment, it might not be taken too kindly. Ed
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 6:25:07 AM EST
I always associated "Bling-Bling" with cars which try to *look* fast, with "tuned by" and "performance" stickers, rather than cars which *are* fast. Ducati has documented the performance of his rifle, so it's appearance is secondary and not very relevant. It's tricked out, it's souped up, it's hot-rodded, but I don't think it's merely bling.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 7:03:39 AM EST
Thanks bb
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 7:27:19 AM EST
Again, why do you have to be so negative? Why must you insist that my comment says "you don't have a clue in the area in which you are rendering a opinion". Why would you think I have no clue? Nothing I said should give you that idea. I merely commented on your well put together rifle, you are being negative unnecessarily. And I DO know something about you and your intended use for the rifle: You spent a bunch of money building a rifle to look like a "long range" military weapon. The only accuracy enhancments it has are a free floated barrel and maybe a better trigger (somebody else said you had a match trigger) You have been shooting it at 50 yds. You have only very recently started shooting at a real rifle range with ranges above 50 yds. You feel like you need to repeatedly justify your rifles configuration, even though nobody is questioning it. You feel the need to constantly insult me and put me down, possibly in an effort to make yourself feel superior to me. I will stop there so I don't sink to your level of negativity. --Dan
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:07:42 AM EST
Dangus, it seems that some people hear "bling bling" with a negative connotation. Not just "looks nice", but "Looks nice, nothing under the hood, what a joke". That's how I've always heard it used. Maybe it's an East Side - West Side thing. ;) I'm glad to hear that you didn't mean it that way though.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:27:27 AM EST
Can we just agree that HIRAMRANGER was just trying to compliment the darn thing? Or was he slammed more because he was using HIP HOP terminology, which is something that is looked down upon by some here on the board? Does it really matter that much?
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:44:40 AM EST
Dan, i don't want to get too negative either. I realize you meant no insult. Infact, you weren't even the one that started the bling-bling comment. I see more than a few people who like to jump in and pontificate from on-high about a lot things that they really don't know crap about. When i read your bling-bling comment, I thought, "Here we go again." I thought I would have a little fun with you. Sorry it got out of hand and has upset you. The reason for this post in the first place was because there is some interest in the MV of some of the heavier OTM loads shot from 18" SPR barrels. I could not find, nor could anyone in earlier posts, provide data on 68gr BH OTM in particular. I hope to get together with Forest (MD AR Shooter site) to crony some with him. A number of people have asked if we have any results yet. We do not. I did get some data, however, on 68 gr and 75 gr from other barrel lengths and 75 gr from an 18". With this data, I guestimated the MV of 68 gr from an 18" barrel and developed a possible ballistic table. When I went to the range, the POIs were quite close to expected so it follows that my MV guess of 2737 fps was at least in the ballpart. I wanted to share this with others who might be interested. I did not expect the thread to turn into a discussion of bling-bling and my SPR. I posted the photos so that interested parties could understand the level of potential performance. FWIW, The barrel is a Douglas Premium SS unit with 1:7 twist. It was given the SPR profile and worked by Compass Lake engineering. Their work included a matched bolt to give absolute minimum headspace. These items, along with the FF RAS improve accuracy. The OPS Inc. compensator is one that does not hurt accuracy and when used with the OPS Inc. silencer, actually improves accuracy by tensioning the barrel, according to Wes at MSTN. The cheek weld on the VLTOR stock is better than any I've ever felt on an AR16/M16. I am more consistant and therefore more accurate with it. The Clubfoot design of this VLTOR stock lets me support the buttpiece with my non-strong-side hand. The bi-pod gives a solid support without looking for sandbags. The Leupold scope is amoung the best and the M1 target knobs allow precise trajectory adjustment and that feature was absolutely needed for this experiment to be worth the time to type it up. The ARMS mounts are solid and allow the rest of the system to work together as expected. The trigger is a White Post / RRA 2-stage item that really improved the feel and accuracy of the rifle. The ambi selector and Norgon ambi mag release are because I'm left handed. The LH Ergo grip lets me get a good grip and places my trigger finger at the right level for a natural straight trigger pull. The front and rear Knight's BUIS aren't really needed so they might be bling, unless I suspect some problem with the scope but want to keep shooting. My point is there are a number of items on this rifle that improve accuracy other than just the free-floated barrel and match trigger. Have a good day and don't give up on the board. Ed
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:24:43 PM EST
Is the major difference between the mod-0 and the mod-1 just related to the type of FF fore end? Mod-0 uses the PRI tube and the Mod-1 uses the KAC FF RAS, right? Or am I totally off? By the way, that's a damn nice rifle.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 8:44:03 PM EST
Iron sights, on any gun, are never, ever bling.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 2:19:27 AM EST
04, The Mod 0 has the PRI tube and I think the PRI flip up sight/gas block. The Mod 1 has the FF RAS, KAC low profile gas block and RAS mounted flip up front sight. new-arguy, You are correct, IMHO. My comment was in the context that they don't inprove the accuracy of the Mk12 in it's primary role. Unless the scope goes TU, then they are of prime importance. Ed
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 9:57:57 AM EST
Bling bling! [BD] Actually, Beautiful rifle. I would love to have myself a SPR someday, except I want to get the rifle length SIR just because I like the looks better. Too bad I will soon be a college student with no money to spend on guns/gun accesories [:(]. So, I am just stuck with my RRA varminter for now, but someday, when I can afford the the new rifle length SIR, and a new barrel, and some buis, and nice ARMS mounts, and a Leupold, and a new Vltor stock, and when I win the lottery, I will have myself my own personal SPR. I envy you ducati. Happy shooting! p.s. You should get into handloading. Cuts match ammo price in half plus, you can get some real accurate stuff. Just a thought.
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 12:29:28 PM EST
Thanks AZ. A buddy is setting up to do lust that and I may go in with him. Nothing shabby about a RRA varminter. Ed
Link Posted: 7/9/2003 2:46:36 PM EST
Ducati: Your rifle is beautiful. Please post a bigger monitor sized picture suitable for a desktop wallpaper. I want to ogle that rifle... Thanks M4-AK
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 2:26:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/10/2003 2:28:24 AM EST by ducati650]
M4-AK, Thanks. Don't want to get too carried away posting photos so here are links to a couple of larger photos. I think you can click on the photo to view it full size if your need to then right click and do a "save as". [url]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/65524/Dscf0052.jpg[/url] [url]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/65524/Dscf0053.jpg[/url] Ed
Link Posted: 7/10/2003 4:15:34 PM EST
Thanks for the pics Ed. M4-AK Looks even better in these.
Link Posted: 7/11/2003 6:44:52 AM EST
Glad you like them. Ed
Link Posted: 7/12/2003 10:12:35 AM EST
Amazing piece of equiptment! Me likes!
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 12:12:09 AM EST
Very nice rifle. Is all that barrel profiling custom work? And is that a standard parked finish? It would be great to have just the upper.
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 2:56:29 AM EST
The profile is the current Mk12 SPR profile. The barrel is Stainless Steel. The finish is GunKote, I think. The collar, which is part of the 2-port OPS Inc. brake is seated against a small step in the barrel and is secured with a set-screw. Got it from Wes at MSTN. He can fix you up with just the barrel or an entire upper. Ed
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 7:01:33 AM EST
As long as its a AR15/M16 its cool! I think some guys get kinda jealous when they see a super cool set up? I see it all the Time! I have a couple of bushmaster a Shorty A1 with a ML2 and a A1 20HBAR with a Bush 10x that some times sits on it when I want to see what the rifle can do and by the way it shoots 69bthp into clovers at 100yrd! Thats my set up!And ive seen guys turn and talk about all the bells etc! to each there own! YEAH I love to have his rifle I guess the BLING BLING could be taken the wrong way? Anyway Great shooting awesome Rifle
Link Posted: 7/15/2003 7:19:28 PM EST
Dammit, I like that gun. BTT
Link Posted: 7/16/2003 6:12:36 AM EST
Must have - drawn to light, cannot resist - ZAP Damn you... More $ to buy a new toy/tool now.
Link Posted: 7/17/2003 2:16:33 AM EST
That was funny Kevin. I've always been a "carbine guy" but this 18" SPR profile barrel builds a great, balanced, accurate weapon. I can't tell you how much I enjoy it. Ed
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 5:43:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By ducati650: you know nothing about the intended use for this rifle. True, I'm probably not a soldier in Iraq but beyond that you know nothing about me. Second, this rifle is a tool.
View Quote
Ducati, What line of work are you in? Also very nice rifle and great Hi-Res Pics. I collect them so thanks for posting them. I like your taste in scopes, I have the Illuminated Version of the one you have. [img]http://www.davkenrem.net/tsprcan2.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 7/18/2003 6:35:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/18/2003 6:42:24 AM EST by ducati650]
Thanks Dav. Very nice looking SPR. i've admired other photos of it. I'm an electrical engineer but I mostly design printed circuit cards and do manufacturability reviews of our customer's designs. Ed FWIW, Forest and I have set a date, Saturday the 26th, to get together and test some BH ammo through my 18" SS Douglas/Compass Lake/MSTN SPR. We will try some BH 68 gr. OTM as well as some of the sample 77gr., NATO-spec ammo.
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