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Posted: 8/30/2004 12:30:30 PM EDT
At the ITRC at D&L Sports in Gillette WY.

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Full report here: brianenos.ibforums.com/index.php?showtopic=16277
Picture index here: apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/ITRC-2004/
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:35:28 PM EDT
You lucky bastage.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:40:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:40:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:41:47 PM EDT by Aimless]
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:41:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:42:55 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]
Cost of entry: $250 per person or $500 per team.

There is talk of a Huey and more M16's or an M60 next year. About two thirds of the teams were military or LEO. My team came in 13th. 47 teams started the match, 9 dropped out, 38 finished. The teams from the Colorado 3Gun crowd came in 1st, 10th, 11th, and 13th.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 12:44:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 12:44:46 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]
The chopper was a Robinson cabable of carrying 4 people total. The pilot was from TX. The HMMVs were run by the NE ARNG guys.

The AR scope is a TA11 with a bicycle inner tube over so I can adjust the brightness of the reticle-- black for precision, bright red for speed.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:07:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:12:13 PM EDT
You run the JP aluminum carrier or did you run the steel carrier?

Sounds like a LOT of rounds went down range and I bet that would eat into the Al. carrier's life by a fair bit.

Awesome match.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:13:53 PM EDT
Best advice:

Bring gear that WORKS 100%. Make sure your AR15 can fire 500-700 rounds in 30 minutes without things melting, falling off, or breaking.

Get good at doping wind. Have good data for your precision rifle, and know how to make hits on small steel targets with your carbine from 0 - 400 yards.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:14:17 PM EDT

Are the results posted yet?

Semper Fi
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:16:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 1:19:41 PM EDT by Zak-Smith]

I ran the LW carrier on day 1 (Stage 3) and it ran ok most of the time. This was a precision stage so two malfs didn't matter. There was a lot of very fine dry dust blowing around in this region and it got everywhere. By the end of that stage, the LW carrier would not reliably strip the first round from a mag. I switched to the SS carrier after hearing horror stories from the people who shot Stage 1 first.

Eric Miller ran a LW carrier in his CTR upper and I think it ran fine.. it was his aluminum gas block that migrated forward 0.25" after it expanded due to heat.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:17:27 PM EDT

I have a paper copy of the results at home. I don't know if they will be posted online or not.

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:18:34 PM EDT
By the way, all of our guns and gear ran without problem.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:24:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2004 1:28:04 PM EDT by uglygun]
What were you guys using for ammo?

Factory or handloads?

Seems like the bolt gunner could take advantage of handloads if the person had a favored load that was consistent.

I don't know if I have what it takes to be the type of person who'd be competitive with an AR15 in a match like that. But I think I'm gettin close enough that I could be a threat with my bolt gun and unknown distance shooting.

What was the longest distance for the bolt gunner to engage? Were target dimentions pretty straight forward so that ranging with a mil-dot reticle was a bit easier, Mil-Dot Master would help a LOT in that situation I would bet. That and a 6.5-284 or a 300WinMag...

The thing that still floors me is the flippin round count for that one handgun stage, JESUS! I've got 5 14 round magazines for my Para Ordinance P14 but hell if I know if it could even make it that far through a stage before it starts hickuping. In fact I doubt it could as I only count 3 of the 5 mags as being reliable with 2 needing to still be worked in. Not to mention trying to reload the damned things that many times.

What would be VERY interesting would be to run the stage with a wheel gun such as a Model 25 in 45ACP, 610 in 10mm Auto, or one of those damned S&W PC 38supers that have an 8 shot moon clip. Buy a SHITLOAD of moon clips and have all your ammo moon clipped together in a backpack. Reliability of a wheel gun, speed loading of an auto, and SMOOTH ASSED DOUBLE ACTION! Being the wheel gun fanatic that I am, I would probably consider that as a very serious possibility over a semiauto. Wear a drop back on your leg to throw all your empty moon clips into so you don't loose those precious little gems. People would probably think you were nuts packing a wheel gun on the line until they saw a backpack full of moon clips.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:34:29 PM EDT
I was shooting 75gr Black Hills for my 223, and Glenn was using 175gr moly Black Hills for his Rem PSS 308 (more or less stock).

Bring any ammo you want as long as it's accurate in your gun and you know where it shoots.

People shooting less standard calibers in the long range rifle were more likely to handload for it. The winning team used some 52gr handloads for the carbine and 6.5-06 handloads for the rifle.

The longest carbine shot was about 350-375 yards, I can't remember. Carbine targets were no smaller than 6" square, more likely poppers or larger squares. Every precision carbine and rifle shot could be shot from prone with a bipod. Estimating winds across gulleys and off cliffs was difficult.

For the short-range carbine, being able to 4-tap 6"-12" plates from 50-150 yards was helpful. On that hoser stage, I pulled the trigger as fast as my sight-picture was on target, which was often before I could see/register the previous hit, almost certainly before I heard it, and always before it was called.

The longest distance for the bolt gun was in the 700 yard range, I think. Targets were not standard sizes so mildot ranging would have been difficult. Using a good LRF was the way to go. We used a Leica LRF1200, but even a Bushnell 800 had no problem.

Glenn had 7 13 round mags for his Kimber doublestack. I picked up his empties and stuffed rounds like mad -- and kept up througout the shoothouse. When he hit the stop plate 500 rounds later, mirage was coming off his pistol's slide. People have done it with wheel guns before, and that's a good idea. I'll just buy another 20 STI mags, however. :D

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 1:44:55 PM EDT
Now I know I have a booring life h.gif
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:01:07 PM EDT
Good Job! Looks like you had a great time.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 2:33:31 PM EDT
Sounds like typical weekend to me. Oh wait, I get paid for it.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:13:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 3:24:15 PM EDT
That looks like alot of fun. Well worth the entry fee.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:44:05 PM EDT
Wow, that looks like os much fun.

What type of upper is that? it looks very unique.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 6:51:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:10:38 PM EDT
Man, I expected to see pics of a hog.
Looks like a lot of fun.
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:20:11 PM EDT
I can't imagine how much fun that is...

Another reason I should get in shape and make money

- BG
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 7:25:13 PM EDT
My AR is a JP CTR-02, review here: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=175948

Link Posted: 8/30/2004 8:15:56 PM EDT
that would be so cool to do
Link Posted: 8/30/2004 9:12:58 PM EDT
Damn that looks like it was fun

Just wait until you can let loose with a .50 out of a helo
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:47:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 4:49:57 AM EDT by DvlDog]
looks like fun but the R-22 is barely a helicopter.

Zak, are you professional or a well-funded hobbyist? no reason im just being curious.

and yes, the .50 from a helo is awesome.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 4:54:02 AM EDT
Man ! You guys have all the fun!!! I get a woody if I'm "allowed" out to go shoot for more than two hours! Oh well , at least I can do that . Good job on placement. What were the other two guns being shot in the match? Take care. Coondog
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 5:29:09 AM EDT
Zak, would love to hear a more detailed report of equipment wear and tear after that one stage. Saw some of the photographs of burned out guns - looks like it was pretty hard on gear. I'd also love to hear what type of throat, muzzle brake erosion you see in your own gun after that.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:34:49 AM EDT

I'm an electrical engineer by trade and a shooter for fun. Considering a career change if it could happen -- still young enough to do it.


A team consists of a carbine shooter and a bolt-action rifle shooter, and both must carry pistols throughout the match. Carbine shots this year were to about 350, and bolt rifle shots were to about 700.


If you follow the link to the report I wrote on BrianEnos.com, there are more photos of other guns and reports from some other guys on what broke.

Lots of carbines and pistols broke on the high-intensity 45 minute stage. Most common was gas block movement due to heat expansion and use of only set screws. All the reports I heard of this were using aluminum gas blocks. The guys with A2 FSBs had no problems as far as I know. My aluminum gas block stayed in place, I think because I dumped water on it from my camelback four times throughout the 550 rounds shot in approx 23 minutes. Mirage from the barrel was not a problem on the 150 yard targets through my TA11, but it could be noticed. Everything else on that gun worked well, including the 3.5# JP trigger.

I did have to shoot another long-range precision stage the day after this stage; it was hard to tell if the rifle had changed POI or not, because the wind was very hard to read across the canyons. I plan to bench it just as it is with my TA11 still mounted to see rough accuracy and if there was any POI drift. Then I'll clean the bore really well with JB paste and bench it with a big scope to see if I lost any accuracy due to heat effects or throat erosion. It's a stainless JP barrel. If I can get access to a bore-scope, I'll take a llook at the throat.

In the shoothouse (another 500 rounds in about 15-20 minute), I heard of the following problems with pistols: melted fiber-optic front sights; rear Glock Trijicon sight drift side to side; front Glock Trijicon sight falling off; a BHP that was reassembled incorrectly; and mag problems. Since the carbine shooter was picking mags up off the ground, loading them, and handing them back to the shooter, mags would get dirty and also migrate some of that dirt up into the gun. The SV/STIs I saw had no problems. Glenn's Kimber Poly double-stack 45 had no problems.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:32:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2004 9:32:26 AM EDT by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Thanks Zak, I had read the reports on Brian Enos covering the obvious malfunctions. That picture you posted of the bolt carrier group made me wonder about the rifles that finished the course OK though. I was curious if there was noticeable wear and tear on those as well. It sounds like you've got the same question! I'll be interested to hear what you find out with regard to your own rifle.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 9:40:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
Damn that looks like it was fun

Just wait until you can let loose with a .50 out of a helo

Yeah and get paid to do it.
Link Posted: 8/31/2004 2:42:21 PM EDT

I went out and shot the rifle this afternoon. It was 0.8" high and about 2.5-3" left at 100 yards vs. the original zero going into the match. This explains in part why I had to apply to much windage on the last day of the match to hit any of the precision shots.

There does not appear to be any damage to the rifle except possible barrel damage which will be reflected in the accuracy. I was getting groups in the 1.5MOA range with the TA11 today, which is a little worse than I was getting with the same setup before.

When the rifle was new, it was capable of shooting 0.25 MOA (half inch @ 200y) five shot groups with a big scope. I'll see if I can replicate that setup (scope now in use elsewhere) and test it soon.

Link Posted: 8/31/2004 7:12:17 PM EDT
I've been talking to Dave at D&L and we will probably provide some MG's for next years heli event. I can't wait to fire my m60 from the heli. I have posted some more pics on my website.

Click here to see some more ITRC pics
Link Posted: 9/2/2004 4:44:20 AM EDT
i went the otherway, .mil first and now im an electrical engineer. if youre young and in shape do it now while you can. youll never regret it. join the reserves as a grunt, then ocme back to your career. if you do this stuff for fun youll never regret it.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 9:02:26 AM EDT
Notes to self:
Revive idea of water-cooled AR upper.
20 pistol mags is not enough-- as if I needed an excuse.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:49:46 PM EDT
Very Nice!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:39:10 PM EDT
Zak, Any chance you saw the preacher and his partner shooting their "Contender" like weapons during the shoot? Can't remember the specifics. He's my neighbor, and knows more about guns then anybody has a right to. He doesn't know ARs, but allways acts interested when we talk.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 8:59:03 PM EDT
I didn't see them, but I heard about them.

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