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Posted: 5/14/2016 12:41:19 PM EDT
Efficient Estimators


Relative Efficiency of Extreme Spread estimation by group size.
If our goal is to characterize a range statistic using the least number of shots then we should pick our group size carefully. Kolbe et. al. noted that for any desired error and confidence level it looked like 7-shot groups produced a significant estimate using the lowest number of total shots fired. Using our more extensive simulations of the coefficient of variation we can see now that 6-shot groups are actually the most efficient, and that 5-shot groups are practically as efficient (and for many scenarios identical).

4- and 8-shot groups are almost as efficient, but if you're shooting 3-shot groups or groups larger than 9 shots then you are wasting bullets.




http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Range_Statistics#Efficient_Estimators
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 1:06:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2016 1:52:14 PM EDT by Eric802]
Keep this on topic - Eric802
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 1:24:38 PM EDT
Seems to me a 5 shot group is the best.
Link Posted: 5/14/2016 1:45:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2016 2:27:22 PM EDT by bfoosh06]
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 12:01:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/15/2016 12:02:38 AM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 9:14:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:09:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 10:58:20 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 12:02:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/15/2016 12:09:05 PM EDT by Eric802]
Keep this on topic - Eric802
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 12:15:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 12:27:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/15/2016 12:28:09 PM EDT by TGH456E]
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Originally Posted By TGH456E:
Keep this on topic - Eric802
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Sir:
With respect to you............ my comments were on topic. The OP is fixed on questioning the issue of Extreme Spreads and the number of shots used for that.

In the article he quotes from (and misrepresents) it explains the difference between range statistics (ie Extreme Spreads) and Invariant Data (ie Mean Radius).

I pointed out that posters like Molon, use both to address this issue................

Link Posted: 5/15/2016 1:08:56 PM EDT
Just to be clear.
None of the words in the original post are mine.
The OP is a quote from the link provided. The link is from a web page created by PhD level scientists and professional statistitions.
I provided the information for 2 reasons.

1) Accidemic knowlage.
If you have ever wondered how many shots does it take? Should I shoot 3? 10? 5 groups of 5?
2)How many boxes of ammo do I need to find a good deer hunting load?
Well if it is you and your son and you are poor you only need to buy one box of each type of ammo you want to try. 6 for dad, 6 for son with 8 left over to hunt with if they shoot well in both rifles. If not, on to the next type of ammo.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 1:44:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 2:15:05 PM EDT
OP:

No offense but I didn't think those were any of your words at all.

You snipped and cut from an article over theories that you haven't proven yourself.

If you want to help out that poor father/son combo.............. instead of posting theories, start posting your results.

Posters, like Molon, take the time to carefully post results of ALOT of different ammunition. Some posters do so in a way which gives a good idea of how precise various ammunition is.

If you feel there is a better way of testing............start testing ammunition in the real world and post it.

That might actually help the poor father/son, instead of posting a theory.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 2:47:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2016 5:43:53 PM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 3:01:59 PM EDT
Yes.............. The more "data" the better.

I personally use 10shot groups for a reason and don't need to justify them to myself.

But instead of talking........... shoot.

The OP, like most of us, needs the practice and theories are great and all but results are what matter.


Link Posted: 5/15/2016 3:28:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 3:43:36 PM EDT
I use 10 shot groups as well, both for velocity measurement and accuracy/precision of the particular load. I'm nowhere near the sophistication of Molon's tests but I do post my results when I compile them.

10 shots sure seem to bring out any inconsistencies in a load that would be missing from some 6-7 round and lower tests.
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 4:12:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/15/2016 4:48:18 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Nobody sees more daily shooting results of brand new rifles than me.

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Mark? ... no offense but whoever you are.............
You are clearly confident about the products you sell. Which is good. You should be. You got that way by repetition and knowing the product involved- the rifle, ammo and shooter.

Most of us don't have that luxury. When I buy new-to-me ammunition or a rifle, I don't have that confidence in it. Yes- manufacturers make promises etc but I won't KNOW what something will do until I test it. I test ammunition by shooting it- clean barrel, dirty, warm cold. Once I've done that- I know what it will do. I shoot Service Rifle and we shoot 10shot strings, so I shoot 10 shot strings. I don't have the time or money to buy every type of ammunition out there. Posts, like Molons, which are well done help me screen what I might purchase.

Instead of dogging him, you should recognize how he helps you.....If I were to buy one of your rifles, I'd want to test it with good ammunition. His, and others, tests help me know what good ammunition is out there and when I put it your rifle and get a good outcome........... it's because of both my selection of a good rifle and ammunition.

Eric:

Yes........... shoot more.......talk less..............

Link Posted: 5/15/2016 7:09:45 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/16/2016 2:13:05 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:



10-shot groups shot out of a single barrel someone happened to get off a barrel line somewhere tells us what that and only that barrel will do, not whether or not a groundhog is in mortal danger from a bullet flung from a barrel other than the one in the test.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Nobody sees more daily shooting results of brand new rifles than me.



Mark? ... no offense but whoever you are.............
You are clearly confident about the products you sell. Which is good. You should be. You got that way by repetition and knowing the product involved- the rifle, ammo and shooter.

Most of us don't have that luxury. When I buy new-to-me ammunition or a rifle, I don't have that confidence in it. Yes- manufacturers make promises etc but I won't KNOW what something will do until I test it. I test ammunition by shooting it- clean barrel, dirty, warm cold. Once I've done that- I know what it will do. I shoot Service Rifle and we shoot 10shot strings, so I shoot 10 shot strings. I don't have the time or money to buy every type of ammunition out there. Posts, like Molons, which are well done help me screen what I might purchase.

Instead of dogging him, you should recognize how he helps you.....If I were to buy one of your rifles, I'd want to test it with good ammunition. His, and others, tests help me know what good ammunition is out there and when I put it your rifle and get a good outcome........... it's because of both my selection of a good rifle and ammunition.

Eric:

Yes........... shoot more.......talk less..............




10-shot groups shot out of a single barrel someone happened to get off a barrel line somewhere tells us what that and only that barrel will do, not whether or not a groundhog is in mortal danger from a bullet flung from a barrel other than the one in the test.



Yes and that is exactly my point and the difference between what you are trying to accomplish and the average shooter. I can only shoot one rifle (barrel) at a time and I only bought that one barrel, not a whole line of them. So yes, it is very important for me to know what that one barrel does.................
You can make or buy a whole series of barrels to test at once. I don't and can't. Instead the question of the quality of a barrel (or rifle or ammunition) is answered by quality posts from numerous posters (like from Molon) which then help to confirm or deny my testing..................

Link Posted: 5/16/2016 8:11:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2016 8:12:33 AM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 5/16/2016 3:53:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2016 4:18:32 PM EDT by Eric802]
AGAIN, let's keep this on topic. If you want to discuss all things LaRue Tactical, they have a forum here - Eric802
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 3:38:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 7:04:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2016 7:06:42 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:


90% doesn't support what ?
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The fact that you dont understand stats or read the linked page
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 7:09:10 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Statistical bump
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Statistical bump



but if you're shooting 3-shot groups or groups larger than 9 shots then you are wasting bullets.


there mr stats
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 7:15:07 PM EDT
efficiency does not equal confidence
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 7:29:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2016 7:31:44 PM EDT by TaylorWSO]
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
my outright domination of the 1MOA/SPR board.

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so now Internet posting are as good as "proven/objective math sciences"????

Link Posted: 6/21/2016 8:10:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 9:25:11 PM EDT
I don't understand what all the hard feelings are about? Science is science. The facts and the proof are posted. A group of professionals gave you all the results of the equivalent of millions of rounds of ammo shot. If you don't want to hear it, fine. But it's still true. Go play the lottery if you think you know statistics better. As for the guy that posts a lot about the ammo he shoots. Great job, thank you for the time and info. But, facts are facts. He hates 3 round internet commandos and 6 rounds is all you need to shoot.

While we are at it, his work is not sophisticated. Well documented? Yes. Pretty to look at? Absolutely. Good info so we can compare ammo? Yes! He shoots 10 rounds out of a very nice rig, that's all. Not a sophisticated test.

I'll save some one the post.
Why don't I post some work?
Because what I do or don't do doesn't change reality. It's not a contest. it just is.
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 9:48:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2016 9:49:45 PM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 10:43:46 PM EDT
LaRue_Tactical:

You heard the man.... start shooting 7rd groups....... listen to him, he knows.
Your 3rd groups are useless...........

This thread was revived why?
Noone has posted anything new............
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 11:50:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 6/21/2016 11:54:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/21/2016 11:59:20 PM EDT by TGH456E]
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:


Public service announcement.
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Originally Posted By LaRue_Tactical:
Originally Posted By TGH456E:
LaRue_Tactical:

You heard the man.... start shooting 7rd groups....... listen to him, he knows.
Your 3rd groups are useless...........

This thread was revived why?
Noone has posted anything new............


Public service announcement.


Yes..... courteousy of Happy2shoot.......
So you'll start shooting 7rd groups for your rifles? Sweet!
...
Link Posted: 6/22/2016 12:05:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2016 12:08:24 AM EDT by LaRue_Tactical]
Link Posted: 6/22/2016 3:21:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2016 3:22:44 AM EDT by TGH456E]
Happy2Shoot wont be happy with that at all............... not at all.................

That answer isn't even on his chart.....
Link Posted: 6/22/2016 11:09:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/22/2016 11:09:08 AM EDT by Eric802]
Sandbox is closed, children.
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