Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 8/25/2004 6:51:21 AM EST
Clarificatinon - I'm a newbie to these forums and to suppressors, not to AR's.

Situation: I'm a law enforcement officer in rural Arkansas, and carry a personally-owned CAR-15 both on-duty and off. I recently bought (personal purchase) an Advanced Armament 'M4-2000' suppressor for it, which I like a lot; and rarely shoot the gun without now.

My concern is the increased backpressure that comes with suppressors, which definitely makes the gun dirtier faster, and probably speeds up cycle time, which (I assume) increases wear on the gun.

I've considered a cyclic rate reducer, but was told by Advanced Armament (who sells them) that other than recoil reduction, there's no benefit in semi-auto fire. I've read that a rate reducer helps with reliability in cold weather; but don't know if that's true or not. Where I live, we don't get arctic cold, and the gun's VERY reliable as is.

Also, I do often shoot the gun with a .22 conversion unit, which of course makes it even dirtier.


Basically, I'm looking for opinions or pointers on two things:

1 - How beneficial a rate reducer would be on a CAR-length semi-auto gun with a suppressor attached. If it is likely to decrease wear, or enhance reliability, I'm all for it; if not, there may not be any reason for it.

2 - ANY other lessons others have learned regarding suppressed use of AR's or CAR's; I'd appreciate any pointers, to avoid making the same mistakes.


Thanks - John
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 6:53:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/25/2004 6:55:20 AM EST by QuietShootr]
Get an H buffer and a Wolff Extra-power buffer spring. I have much the same setup as you do, and the combination of heavier buffer and heavier spring slows it down some and definitely makes cycling more positive.

Get a Gasbuster charging handle, if you don't already have one...it really reduces the eye-watering fun of shooting a suppressed AR.

I don't know what you use for lube, but I've found TW25B works a lot better under conditions of increased fouling caused by shooting suppressed. Also, you want to get a D-ring and heavy extractor spring for your bolt.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:18:09 AM EST
I am looking forward to a piston-driven upper, either the HK 416 or the rumored POF version.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:27:18 AM EST
If you insist on the std short tube CAR stock, use a 9mm buffer, as it weighs with in a few points of an oz of the std rifle buffer. I use the std rifle stock myself on the SBR, I not like the CAR stock, not fit me good.

I run a 7.5" and 11.5" with the WARRIOR, and with out, makes no difference, other than dirtier faster with the suppressor on. I have been using the Castrol Syntech as of late, seems to work well, especially when using the Wolf grey cased ammo, as the oil blown around keeps the cases from sticking sooner.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 7:33:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By SBR7_11:
If you insist on the std short tube CAR stock, use a 9mm buffer, as it weighs with in a few points of an oz of the std rifle buffer. I use the std rifle stock myself on the SBR, I not like the CAR stock, not fit me good.

I run a 7.5" and 11.5" with the WARRIOR, and with out, makes no difference, other than dirtier faster with the suppressor on. I have been using the Castrol Syntech as of late, seems to work well, especially when using the Wolf grey cased ammo, as the oil blown around keeps the cases from sticking sooner.



The Warrior generates a lot less backpressure than the M4-2000.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:00:20 AM EST
I'm not there shooting the rifle. And I don't want to belittle the issue. But on semi-auto is the increase in cycling really going to effect longevity of any of the parts?

You could certainly change out recoil springs and buffers and find a smoother cycle. But what I question is if the cost of doing that will be recovered against the potential of faster wear of any parts on the rifle.

If this were a full auto registered reciever worth $12,000 I could understand it. But with readily available AR15 parts I think I would leave a reliable rifle alone.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:03:08 AM EST

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:
I'm not there shooting the rifle. And I don't want to belittle the issue. But on semi-auto is the increase in cycling really going to effect longevity of any of the parts?

You could certainly change out recoil springs and buffers and find a smoother cycle. But what I question is if the cost of doing that will be recovered against the potential of faster wear of any parts on the rifle.

If this were a full auto registered reciever worth $12,000 I could understand it. But with readily available AR15 parts I think I would leave a reliable rifle alone.



Yes, it will beat up the bolt itself much faster if you don't add a heavy spring and buffer. A good bolt (read Colt) is a hundred bucks. Why tear it up quicker than you have to?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:11:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Yes, it will beat up the bolt itself much faster if you don't add a heavy spring and buffer. A good bolt (read Colt) is a hundred bucks. Why tear it up quicker than you have to?



Fair enough. I didn't realize a suppressor on a semi could do that much to the cycle rate.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 8:24:40 AM EST

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:

Yes, it will beat up the bolt itself much faster if you don't add a heavy spring and buffer. A good bolt (read Colt) is a hundred bucks. Why tear it up quicker than you have to?



Fair enough. I didn't realize a suppressor on a semi could do that much to the cycle rate.



Oh, yeah... particularly with a high-efficiency can like the M4-2000 or M4-96D, the increase in cyclic rate can go up 200-300 RPM easily.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:20:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Get an H buffer and a Wolff Extra-power buffer spring. I have much the same setup as you do, and the combination of heavier buffer and heavier spring slows it down some and definitely makes cycling more positive.



Thanks; never thought of Wolff, even though I've used their extra-power springs in the past. For clarification, is the "H-buffer" a Wolff thing, or is it one of the Advanced Armament products..?



Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Get a Gasbuster charging handle, if you don't already have one...it really reduces the eye-watering fun of shooting a suppressed AR.



I've considered one, as there are a couple guys I know who swear by them, but I honestly haven't had a problem with 'blowback'. I've heard it's more of a problem with older-style "bi-lock" quick mounts; don't know about that. But I really haven't had a problem with it. (I guess all it takes is once, though...)



Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I don't know what you use for lube, but I've found TW25B works a lot better under conditions of increased fouling caused by shooting suppressed. Also, you want to get a D-ring and heavy extractor spring for your bolt.



Is the "D-ring" the little compression deal that goes under the extractor? Seen them, but have no experience with them.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:37:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By New_guy:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Get an H buffer and a Wolff Extra-power buffer spring. I have much the same setup as you do, and the combination of heavier buffer and heavier spring slows it down some and definitely makes cycling more positive.



Thanks; never thought of Wolff, even though I've used their extra-power springs in the past. For clarification, is the "H-buffer" a Wolff thing, or is it one of the Advanced Armament products..?

No, the H buffer is a heavier buffer. It's standard in new Colt M4 carbines. You can get it from several vendors on the board.



Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
Get a Gasbuster charging handle, if you don't already have one...it really reduces the eye-watering fun of shooting a suppressed AR.



I've considered one, as there are a couple guys I know who swear by them, but I honestly haven't had a problem with 'blowback'. I've heard it's more of a problem with older-style "bi-lock" quick mounts; don't know about that. But I really haven't had a problem with it. (I guess all it takes is once, though...)

Blowback doesn't have anything to do with the mount. The Gasbuster diverts the gas that normally comes straight back through the charging handle and right up your nose, downward. You might not know you need one until you try one, and realize your right eye isn't watering in rapid fire with your suppressor mounted.


Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I don't know what you use for lube, but I've found TW25B works a lot better under conditions of increased fouling caused by shooting suppressed. Also, you want to get a D-ring and heavy extractor spring for your bolt.



Is the "D-ring" the little compression deal that goes under the extractor? Seen them, but have no experience with them.



Yes. Or, you can use the Wolff extra-power extractor spring. You may not have any problems now, but the increased bolt speed can cause the extractor to jump the case rim when the gun is hot and dirty. Typically, this is when you really need maximum reliability. This is a known problem with shorties, and the suppressor exacerbates the situation.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:48:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By New_guy:
Clarificatinon - I'm a newbie to these forums and to suppressors, not to AR's.

Situation: I'm a law enforcement officer in rural Arkansas, and carry a personally-owned CAR-15 both on-duty and off. I recently bought (personal purchase) an Advanced Armament 'M4-2000' suppressor for it, which I like a lot; and rarely shoot the gun without now.

My concern is the increased backpressure that comes with suppressors, which definitely makes the gun dirtier faster, and probably speeds up cycle time, which (I assume) increases wear on the gun.

I've considered a cyclic rate reducer, but was told by Advanced Armament (who sells them) that other than recoil reduction, there's no benefit in semi-auto fire. I've read that a rate reducer helps with reliability in cold weather; but don't know if that's true or not. Where I live, we don't get arctic cold, and the gun's VERY reliable as is.

Also, I do often shoot the gun with a .22 conversion unit, which of course makes it even dirtier.


Basically, I'm looking for opinions or pointers on two things:

1 - How beneficial a rate reducer would be on a CAR-length semi-auto gun with a suppressor attached. If it is likely to decrease wear, or enhance reliability, I'm all for it; if not, there may not be any reason for it.

2 - ANY other lessons others have learned regarding suppressed use of AR's or CAR's; I'd appreciate any pointers, to avoid making the same mistakes.


Thanks - John



New Guy, I'm getting an M4-2000 as well. Let me ask you this dumb question: How quite is your AR with the AAC surpressor and do you still have to wear muffs?
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:50:01 PM EST
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:53:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.



Sweet.

Now if only the damn Sherriff would sign my form 4, I could get into the final (90+ day) hoop to jump through.
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 12:58:54 PM EST
Since we are talking about buffers, i just thought i would add this....

BUFFER WEIGHTS

Rifle - 5.15oz, made of aluminum

CAR - 2.9oz, made of aluminum

H - 3.77oz

H2 - 4.7oz

H3 – 5.6oz

9mm - 5.47oz, made of steel


Special purpose buffers designed for suppressed SMG's or 9mm carbines using high pressure (+P+) ammunition

9mm A - 6.3oz CAR style buffer

9mm B - 7.1oz CAR style buffer

9mm X - 7.9oz CAR style buffer
Link Posted: 8/25/2004 1:48:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.



Sweet.

Now if only the damn Sherriff would sign my form 4, I could get into the final (90+ day) hoop to jump through.



You HOPE 90 days. My last one is still pending. In fact, it went pending May 10.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:01:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 5:01:55 AM EST by Breycor]

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.



Sweet.

Now if only the damn Sherriff would sign my form 4, I could get into the final (90+ day) hoop to jump through.



You HOPE 90 days. My last one is still pending. In fact, it went pending May 10.



You gotta love the efficiency of our own government.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:34:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.



Sweet.

Now if only the damn Sherriff would sign my form 4, I could get into the final (90+ day) hoop to jump through.



You HOPE 90 days. My last one is still pending. In fact, it went pending May 10.



You gotta love the efficiency of our own government.



My last one (picked it up early August) was 5 weeks.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 5:36:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By jimmybcool:

Originally Posted By Breycor:

Originally Posted By QuietShootr:
I'm not him, but I had one. You don't have to wear muffs. It sounds like a HV .22 fired from a 10/22 rifle.



Sweet.

Now if only the damn Sherriff would sign my form 4, I could get into the final (90+ day) hoop to jump through.



You HOPE 90 days. My last one is still pending. In fact, it went pending May 10.



You gotta love the efficiency of our own government.



My last one (picked it up early August) was 5 weeks.



Rub it in why don't you.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:22:42 AM EST
Also look into the FATBOY Gastube by PRI - it will noticebaly decrease the RPM when running a can.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:32:03 AM EST

Originally Posted By Stainless:
Since we are talking about buffers, i just thought i would add this....

BUFFER WEIGHTS

Rifle - 5.15oz, made of aluminum

CAR - 2.9oz, made of aluminum

H - 3.77oz

H2 - 4.7oz

H3 – 5.6oz

9mm - 5.47oz, made of steel


Special purpose buffers designed for suppressed SMG's or 9mm carbines using high pressure (+P+) ammunition

9mm A - 6.3oz CAR style buffer

9mm B - 7.1oz CAR style buffer

9mm X - 7.9oz CAR style buffer




Important info I left out; the gun's a CAR, but I pulled off the CAR stock & switched to a DSA fixed (A1 length) stock a couple years ago, so I'm using a full-size buffer in it. Given the fixed stock and short barrel, which of the "H" series buffers would be best?

If the bug hits me, I may some day switch back to the collapsible stock, for my kids' use, etc. If so, am I right in assuming there's no way to avoid switching buffers also...?

I do appreciate the info; I've been 'into' AR's for a long time, but apparently not "INTO" them like some around here obviously are.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:36:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By RenegadeX:
I am looking forward to a piston-driven upper, either the HK 416 or the rumored POF version.


+1
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:47:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By New_guy:

Originally Posted By Stainless:
Since we are talking about buffers, i just thought i would add this....

BUFFER WEIGHTS

Rifle - 5.15oz, made of aluminum

CAR - 2.9oz, made of aluminum

H - 3.77oz

H2 - 4.7oz

H3 – 5.6oz

9mm - 5.47oz, made of steel


Special purpose buffers designed for suppressed SMG's or 9mm carbines using high pressure (+P+) ammunition

9mm A - 6.3oz CAR style buffer

9mm B - 7.1oz CAR style buffer

9mm X - 7.9oz CAR style buffer




Important info I left out; the gun's a CAR, but I pulled off the CAR stock & switched to a DSA fixed (A1 length) stock a couple years ago, so I'm using a full-size buffer in it. Given the fixed stock and short barrel, which of the "H" series buffers would be best?

If the bug hits me, I may some day switch back to the collapsible stock, for my kids' use, etc. If so, am I right in assuming there's no way to avoid switching buffers also...?

I do appreciate the info; I've been 'into' AR's for a long time, but apparently not "INTO" them like some around here obviously are.



The H buffers are all carbine length. You're pretty much limited to the factory rifle buffer for the fixed stock, so forget what we said about buffers.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 6:47:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Also look into the FATBOY Gastube by PRI - it will noticebaly decrease the RPM when running a can.



Only thing is, bro, sometimes it reduces gas pressure enough that the gun won't cycle without the can, then.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:24:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 7:27:03 AM EST by New_guy]
Sorry about that; should have said that up front. h.gif

Would you still recommend the Wolff spring, gasbuster T-handle and the D-ring for the extractor?

I'm not familiar with TW25B lube. Who makes it?
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 7:26:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By New_guy:
Sorry about that; should have said that up front.

Would you still recommend the Wolff spring, gasbuster T-handle and the D-ring for the extractor?



Yes, absolutely. You still have the short gas system!
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 9:08:13 AM EST
Sounds like a plan. (Wolff, here I come...)

Maybe I'll pick up one of the "H" buffers anyway, as a 'just in case' thing; never know if the collapsible stock bug will hit me again.

Who makes TW25B?

Thanks again.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 11:20:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/26/2004 11:22:07 AM EST by QuietShootr]
You can get TW25B direct from Milcomm. I get the TW25B grease and MC2500 liquid. It works great on 1911 slide rails too.
Link Posted: 8/26/2004 2:41:00 PM EST
You know, if you guys weren't so helpful, I'd quit pestering you... he
Any experience or suggestions about these...?

(I didn't order the "D-fender" yet, just the Wolff spring. There's a show here in Little Rock this weekend, and now I have an excuse to go. )
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:01:31 AM EST
QS,

I have never seen a Colt or Diemaco gun have that problem with a FATBOY...

My guess is the weapon in question is out of spec.
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 3:24:34 AM EST
Kevin,
Is there any gain in using a Fatboy and a suppressor on a semi auto?
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 6:28:46 AM EST
With the FATBOY you will lower port pressure (which spikes with cans) this will aid in lowering the cyclic rate of the bolt, which in turn shoudl lead to increased reliability and longer weapon (bolt) life.

Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:39:46 AM EST
Any opinions on the drop-in weight addition to the bolt? Seems like it "might" be a good idea (increase mass, decrease velocity), but it's new to me.

Is a "Fatboy" tube a pigtail tube, an adustable tube, or...?
Link Posted: 8/27/2004 7:53:33 AM EST
Will lower port pressure increase accuracy?
Top Top