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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 1/2/2006 11:17:10 AM EDT
I was just about to leave to go put into layaway a Bushy .308, 20". I figure since they're discontinued, it might even be an investment of sorts. Anyhow, some dumb questions, as I'm very unfamiliar with AR10-types:

1. Will the Bushmaster accept the collapsible stocks sold for the "AR10"? I don't know if these rifles are pretty much interchangeable with parts like the AR15s or not.... Handguards made for Armalites also interchangeable? Other parts compatibility/ incompatibility issues?

2. Bushmaster .308 bbls were/are all chrome-lined, correct? Since they took them off their website, I can't check it there. I know all their ar15s are chome-lined.

3. Any reason to NOT get the Bushmaster, vs. an Armalite or DPMS instead. The Armalite most like the config I'm about to get (unless I hear not to, fast) is most like the Armalite AR10 A4 'SPR' rifle. I can think of one good reason TO get the Bushy - FAL mags....

Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 12:28:25 PM EDT
the inability to obtain a new bolt when the Bushy's bolt cracks would be reason #1 for me.

Reason #2 would be the outrageous pricetag for a gun that likely won't have any kind of warranty (again, due to parts not being made)

I don't need a third reason.


DPMS for price-to-accuracy. Armalite for the lifetime warranty. I don't mind tinkering every now and again, and even if I have to replace major parts, it's still cheaper than the Armalite....so the DPMS was my choice and I'm very happy with it. (I'd still like to get one of the new upper receivers though....mine is the old style sans deflector and forward assist)

Link Posted: 1/2/2006 1:02:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2006 1:03:24 PM EDT by FirstFreedom]
ok, thanks. That is a major consideration - replacement parts. Does DPMS not make one with a 20", standard contour barrel? They don't seem seem to make the config I want. The only non-bull barrel they offer is with a 16" carbine correct?

I've put off the purchase temporarily BTW, until I get more info.
Link Posted: 1/2/2006 5:26:37 PM EDT
I believe Bushmaster said they will stand behind there .308's, and they might also be requierd by law to do that at least for a while. But don't quote me.
I'd still go Armalite, more support from aftermarket.

TW
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:20:29 AM EDT
ok, nevermind; they sold the last bushy right out from under me. So looks like like I'll be ordering an armalite or DPMS. Thanks. Man I love the smiley choices on this site! h.gif
Link Posted: 1/3/2006 6:48:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2006 10:08:25 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By FirstFreedom:
I was just about to leave to go put into layaway a Bushy .308, 20". I figure since they're discontinued, it might even be an investment of sorts. Anyhow, some dumb questions, as I'm very unfamiliar with AR10-types:

1. Will the Bushmaster accept the collapsible stocks sold for the "AR10"? I don't know if these rifles are pretty much interchangeable with parts like the AR15s or not.... Handguards made for Armalites also interchangeable? Other parts compatibility/ incompatibility issues? Very few components interchange.

2. Bushmaster .308 bbls were/are all chrome-lined, correct? Since they took them off their website, I can't check it there. I know all their ar15s are chome-lined. NO the BAR10 were not chromelined.

3. Any reason to NOT get the Bushmaster, vs. an Armalite or DPMS instead. The Armalite most like the config I'm about to get (unless I hear not to, fast) is most like the Armalite AR10 A4 'SPR' rifle. I can think of one good reason TO get the Bushy - FAL mags.... SEE BELOW

Thanks.



There are major problems with the Bolt design that causes them to break with use. Troy had a pretty good explanation a while back. The design cannot be fixed because of the FAL magazine usage - they had to delete a locking lug which puts more stress on the remaining lugs. I'm sure this had something to do with it being discontinued. Bottom line is if you want to use FAL magazines - buy a FAL.

I would stay away from the BAR10 unless you just want it as a collectible.

If I may quote Troy on this:





Originally Posted By Troy:
Back in 1998, when Hesse announced that they were going to make a .308 AR using FAL mags, I was warning people here that either it wouldn't feed around the 6-o'clock bolt lug, or Hesse would delete the lug and the bolts would break.

Both Hesse and later ASA ended up making small runs of .308 ARs, leaving the 6-o'clock lug. Both had the predicted feed problems due to the FAL mag, which is designed to feed to the center (the FAL has a rear-tilt-locking bolt design with no barrel extension or locking lugs).

When Bushmaster announced their FAL mag .308, my first question was "How are you going to get the ammo to feed around the 6-o'clock lug on the barrel extension?" When they said that they had deleted the lug, I told them they would have problems with the bolt lugs breaking. Well, here we are...

-Troy



Link Posted: 1/3/2006 9:46:08 AM EDT

I can think of one good reason TO get the Bushy - FAL mags....


And that is the only reason most everybody has come up with for getting the Bushy. Cheap mags is not a reason to get a rifle that will eventually break bolts. If you get one, make sure you buy a good stock of bolts from Bushmaster to replace them over the life of the rifle. I think by federal law, Bushmaster is required to provide warranty work for 10yrs after the stop of production (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).
So make sure you get enough bolts to last you well past that 10yr mark-I'd rather have too many than not enough.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:13:25 AM EDT
don't forget that there were other good reasons for getting the bushmaster: it is ambidexterous, and it is accurate, and you can scope the flattop easily.I'm a lefty, and i've put tens of thousands of rounds through m1a and fals. they are great rifles but they don't scope well and are awkward for leftys. the bar 10 was much more accurate out of the box then my m1a ever was even after custom work by Smith enterprises. that said, i am disillusioned by the bolt problem and am selling mine- i'm giving up on the 308 semi auto for the time being because I think a scope and cheap mags are both crucial.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:21:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
don't forget that there were other good reasons for getting the bushmaster: it is ambidexterous, and it is accurate, and you can scope the flattop easily.I'm a lefty, and i've put tens of thousands of rounds through m1a and fals. they are great rifles but they don't scope well and are awkward for leftys. the bar 10 was much more accurate out of the box then my m1a ever was even after custom work by Smith enterprises. that said, i am disillusioned by the bolt problem and am selling mine- i'm giving up on the 308 semi auto for the time being because I think a scope and cheap mags are both crucial.



I have a FA (Actually an L1A1 clone)L with the DSA picatinny secure top cover. I think it scopes great. Why do you not think so? I think you just need the right hardware.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:27:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 6:31:37 AM EDT by twonami]
I still don't get the missing bolt lug thing so here is a pic of my 223 and 308 bushy bolts

ETA: My 308 bushy has been extremely reliable for me but the buying of extra parts sounds like a good idea.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:58:31 AM EDT
Wow, thank you folks!! Dodged a bullet there possibly.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 6:58:36 AM EDT
-DR:
thanks for the input on the top cover- i've considered these but never invested in one. if you've had good results they must be solid. I never tried one becuse the fal really works against a lefty:
-changing mags requires two hands-right manipulates mags while left index comes forward to bolt stop release.
-safety is worked awkwardly with left index- no after market ambi safety to my knowledge.
-bolt worked with rifle rotated ninety degrees-bolt down, right hand reaches under rifle past mag.
I really enjoyed the fal and shot it a lot with iron sights. but the ergonomics are just bad for a lefty. it still looks like the best choice for quality and value if the scope mount works well.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 8:13:14 AM EDT
Any one looking for great prices on any rifle DPMS makes.
Give Tony Caspers from Final Option a call.
FINAL OPTION
Just click the contact us link on their home page
He has great prices for AR15.com members.
Just let him know where you heard it from.
I bought my first AR-15 M4 from him last year, I paid around $750.
Getting ready to buy my 2nd in .308.
Link Posted: 1/7/2006 5:18:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/7/2006 5:28:20 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
-DR:
thanks for the input on the top cover- i've considered these but never invested in one. if you've had good results they must be solid. I never tried one becuse the fal really works against a lefty:
-changing mags requires two hands-right manipulates mags while left index comes forward to bolt stop release.
-safety is worked awkwardly with left index- no after market ambi safety to my knowledge.
-bolt worked with rifle rotated ninety degrees-bolt down, right hand reaches under rifle past mag.
I really enjoyed the fal and shot it a lot with iron sights. but the ergonomics are just bad for a lefty. it still looks like the best choice for quality and value if the scope mount works well.



Won't argue about the bad lefty ergos, but since I am right handed, I wouldn't really see that. Some complain about the mag release, but on my Inch rifle, it has the ultra wide aussie mag release that makes it super easy to quicky rock the mag out with one hand (Left hand, in my case). I put a metric BHO on mine, works great as long as I use metric mags.
Yeah the scope newer scope mounts are rock solid, hell even the Tapco one I had was solid, just made out of soft metal tho, edges would mushroom when an ejected round hit it.

I am just in love with the adjustable gas system and how easy it is to use and maintain.

Here she is with the Tapco stripper clip mount - worked great - rock solid, just soft alloy that dinged easy. You want to get one with the screws that tighten but don't ever contact the receiver, like this one, and they wont ever touch the receiver. The DSA mount is like that, top quality. (the yellow arrows are just pointing out where the brass hit when ejected - was used in another thread, on FALFILES.COM where some one asked where everyones brass hit when ejected)

Link Posted: 1/10/2006 1:29:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By twonami:
I still don't get the missing bolt lug thing so here is a pic of my 223 and 308 bushy bolts
img.photobucket.com/albums/v475/twonami/103_0305.jpg
ETA: My 308 bushy has been extremely reliable for me but the buying of extra parts sounds like a good idea.




The deleted locking lug is on the BARREL EXTENSION, not on the bolt.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 1:38:25 AM EDT
It wasn't delete on my barrel extension
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 2:48:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Rastus:
It wasn't delete on my barrel extension



Another AR15.com Urban Legend - perhaps started by the Armalite loving crowd?
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:16:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/13/2006 4:18:41 AM EDT by _DR]


Posted By: Troy Date: 12/5/05 10:54
Bushmaster had to delete the 6 o'clock locking lug on the barrel extension in order to allow FAL mags to work. FAL mags are quite narrow and feed to the center, which is not a problem for the rear-locking FAL bolt setup. With a normal AR barrel extension, there is a lug at 6 o'clock that the ammo has to feed around. The narrow FAL mag wouldn't be able to feed reliably with the lug in place, so it had to be deleted in order to use the FAL mag.

Unfortunately, this further weakens the bolt/barrel interface, as you are already missing a lug (on the bolt) at 3 o'clock where the extractor is. Deleting a second lug puts a lot more stress on the remaining lugs, and it appears that some bolts have broken as a result.

Knight and Armalite use mags that are wider and are able to feed around the center, 6 o'clock lug.



Check again, Troy doesn't spout nonsense.

Source

Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:33:11 AM EDT
The pictures posted above do not depict any difference - in all deference to Troy (whom I respect immensely) pictures don't lie.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:40:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
The pictures posted above do not depict any difference - in all deference to Troy (whom I respect immensely) pictures don't lie.




Are you talking about the pictures of the BOLT that are posted above? You understand the difference, right? No one ever said there was a locking lug deleted from the bolt.


Rastus - can you post a pic of the barrel extension on your BAR-10? I'd be very interested in seeing it.
Link Posted: 1/13/2006 4:59:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
The pictures posted above do not depict any difference - in all deference to Troy (whom I respect immensely) pictures don't lie.




Are you talking about the pictures of the BOLT that are posted above? You understand the difference, right? No one ever said there was a locking lug deleted from the bolt.


Rastus - can you post a pic of the barrel extension on your BAR-10? I'd be very interested in seeing it.



And then we need an AR10, SR25 or DPMS barrel extension beside it for comparison.
Would be interesting to see.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:20:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/14/2006 1:20:56 AM EDT by STG77]
Armalite's statement on why they didn't use the FAL magazine

link



The feed from a FAL magazine was very much different and obviously required dramatically ramping the bottom of the barrel extension in a way that cut deeply into the lowest locking lug. This reduces not only the strength of the barrel extension, but the symmetry with which it accepts recoil loads from the bolt. The M-14 magazine thus allows a stronger action in the AR-10 than use of a FAL magazine would.

Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:30:42 AM EDT
.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:05:06 PM EDT
I rec'd one of the last BM .308's off the line, and mine has no lug at 6 oclock on the barrel extension.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 11:23:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lurch:
I rec'd one of the last BM .308's off the line, and mine has no lug at 6 oclock on the barrel extension.



If it's not too much trouble could you snap a photo and post it?

Thanks
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 12:14:29 PM EDT
I have followed this discussion on the Bushmaster 308's broken bolt issue for some time on this and other threads - I don't support or dispute it as I have know basis to do either. However - does anyone actually have any statistics on how many (if any) bolts have actually broken on the Busmaster 308's. Thanks in advance for the information.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 3:47:04 PM EDT
i bought one of these rifles a year ago- had the bolt break and gall the upper receiver after 500 rounds. at that point I posted on this forum and found record of one other broken bolt. I have another thread currently on this forum requesting direct info on this problem- received notice of one broken bolt so far. that makes three I know of for certain.
bushmaster will not confirm a number on this issue. they eventually sent me a new rifle after my problems, and I put it away hoping to find out what this is all about- i'm not much closer to an answer. they have confirmed that they will sell extra bolts ($149) and that they will not sell extra barrels.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:53:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/16/2006 5:04:58 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By tetoncounty:
i bought one of these rifles a year ago- had the bolt break and gall the upper receiver after 500 rounds. at that point I posted on this forum and found record of one other broken bolt. I have another thread currently on this forum requesting direct info on this problem- received notice of one broken bolt so far. that makes three I know of for certain.
bushmaster will not confirm a number on this issue. they eventually sent me a new rifle after my problems, and I put it away hoping to find out what this is all about- i'm not much closer to an answer. they have confirmed that they will sell extra bolts ($149) and that they will not sell extra barrels.



Sounds like they did not do enough R&D on it. I wonder if a bolt was machined out of stronger steel like a 410 grade stainless if it would last longer.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 2:39:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By STG77:

Originally Posted By Bushman_269:
The pictures posted above do not depict any difference - in all deference to Troy (whom I respect immensely) pictures don't lie.




Are you talking about the pictures of the BOLT that are posted above? You understand the difference, right? No one ever said there was a locking lug deleted from the bolt.


Rastus - can you post a pic of the barrel extension on your BAR-10? I'd be very interested in seeing it.



Email sent.
Link Posted: 1/21/2006 6:01:27 AM EDT
No lugs are removed from the bolt and none are missing on my BM .308, the feed ramp feeds from the 5.5 and the 6.5 location on the barrel extension.
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