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Posted: 8/9/2005 8:48:42 PM EDT
IF COLT WASNT RUN BY MORONS THIS WOULDNT HAPPEN

For Immediate Release

CT DELEGATION CALLS ON BUSH ADMINISTRATION TO OPEN BIDDING PROCESS FOR ARMY'S SMALL WEAPONS PROGRAM
Letter asks Army to explain Colt’s exclusion from XM8 program

July 9, 2004

WASHINGTON—Connecticut’s Congressional delegation today sent a letter to Les Brownlee, Active Secretary of the Army, calling on the Bush Administration to open the bidding process for the Army’s small weapons program. Senators Chris Dodd and Joe Lieberman, and Representatives Nancy Johnson, Christopher Shays, Rosa DeLauro, John Larson, and Rob Simmons wrote to Brownlee asking him to explain why Colt Defense LLC of West Hartford was excluded from the Army’s XM8 weapons program.

The XM8 contract was granted to Heckler & Koch GmbH (H&K) of Oberndorf, Germany without a competitive bidding process, which potentially violates several federal procurement regulations and the Buy American Act.

Colt has been producing weapons for the U.S. military for over 150 years and is the producer of the M4 carbine currently used by various American and international forces across the globe. As a result of a 1997 ruling against the Army, the company has an agreement with the United States Army which states that the Army must use its “best efforts” to award small arms research and development contracts to Colt.

“The Army’s decision to replace the M16/M4/M203 with a program exclusively produced by the foreign based H&K may have a devastating effect on Colt,” the letter said. “The company’s business is now predominantly government based and the termination of the M4 carbine would most likely result in the end of Colt. This outcome would have detrimental effects on the Connecticut employees and the US Army, which will need Colt to provide replacement parts for the M4 until it can be completely phased out around the end of this decade.”

The full text of the letter is below.

July 9, 2004

The Honorable Les Brownlee
Secretary of the Army, Acting
102 Army Pentagon, Room 3E488
Washington, DC 20310-0102


Dear Secretary Brownlee:

We have recently been informed of the Army’s apparent plan to replace the M16 rifle, M4 carbine and M203 grenade launcher with a new assault weapon that is being rapidly developed for the United States military. This new weapon program, designated as the XM8 and produced by Heckler & Koch GmbH (H&K) of Oberndorf, Germany, has reportedly received several million dollars in research and development funds and is scheduled to be deployed to two combat brigade teams of the end of fiscal year 2005. However, it is our understanding that the progress of the XM8’s development has occurred without a competitive bidding process and in our view potentially violates several federal procurement regulations and the Buy American Act (41 U.S.C. 10a et seq.).

In 2002 the Army, following a competitive bidding process, issued a contract to the U.S.-based Alliant Techsystems (ATK) Company to study possibilities for developing a next-generation military weapon known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW). The OICW was initially intended to provide the military with a weapon, designated the XM29, capable of firing both standard 5.56mm rounds and 20mm grenades. Since that time, the services of ATK have been discontinued and one of the program’s subcontractors, Heckler & Koch, has become solely responsible for producing the kinetic energy portion of the OICW program, now termed the XM8 Assault Rifle. We have been informed that the Army has now embarked on the spiral development of this rifle in order to replace the reportedly “aging” inventory of M16/M4/M203 weapons. To accomplish this, H&K has been funded at least $7 million to develop, test and field the XM8 rifle and, in parallel, a new stand alone 40mm grenade launcher. To our knowledge, no open competition was performed after the Army’s decision to develop only a portion of the original OICW concept and providing the subcontractor, H&K, with the authority and funding to proceed with the XM8.

Colt Defense LLC of West Hartford Connecticut has been producing weapons for the U.S. military for over 150 years and is the producer of the M4 carbine currently used by various American and international forces across the globe. As a result of a 1997 ruling against the Army, for its failure to protect Colt’s data rights, the company has an active Memorandum of Understanding with the United States Army which states that the Army must use its “best efforts” to award small arms research and development contracts to Colt.

Despite being excluded from consideration for meeting the Army’s requirements for a next-generation rifle, Colt Defense LLC submitted an independent proposal to produce the XM8 in February 2004. In March, Colt was informed that their proposal was rejected because H&K owned the data rights to the new assault rifle and therefore, Colt would not be capable of producing a weapon with the exact specifications of the XM8.

The Army’s decision to replace the M16/M4/M203 with a program exclusively produced by the foreign based H&K may have a devastating effect on Colt. The company’s business is now predominantly government based and the termination of the M4 carbine would most likely result in the end of Colt. This outcome would have detrimental effects on the Connecticut employees and the US Army, which will need Colt to provide replacement parts for the M4 until it can be completely phased out around the end of this decade.

We are extremely supportive of maintaining the United States military’s technological edge and putting the best weapons in the hands of the brave service men and women who defend our country. However, based on the information we have received, this delegation is very interested in learning from the Army, the status of its current small arms programs. We would also like to hear the Army’s perspective on the following questions:

• What are the shortcomings and performance concerns of the M16/M4/M203 weapons that require the U.S. military to develop a new small arms program?

• Since the XM8 will is now simply a different weapon firing the same ammunition as the weapons currently used by our armed forces, what will the U.S. military gain by replacing the nearly 700,000 M16/M4’s currently in hands of U.S. troops?

• What is the projected cost of replacing the M16/M4/M203 to American taxpayers?

• The Army conducted a competitive procurement process for the OICW, which was to be a combined 20mm grenade-firing weapon that was integral with a 5.56mm kinetic energy rifle, and awarded the contract to ATK. The Army has now begun a new program under the auspices of OICW, however it is of a different scope than the original Operations Requirements Document (ORD) and with a subcontractor to ATK. This new program was begun without contract competition to ensure the government is getting the best product for it money. Does the Army feel that these actions are supported by the Federal Acquisition Regulations (FAR), Defense Federal Acquisition Regulation Supplement (DFAS) and the Competition in Contracting Act (CICA)?

• The Army has awarded the contract for the next generation assault weapon to a foreign company without open competition from U.S. based companies. Does this decision violate any provisions of the Buy American Act?

• Once the XM8 is fielded, the U.S. military will be relying on a weapons system whose data rights are owned by a foreign company. Are there dangers in H&K supplying technical details on this weapon to “unfriendly states”?

We would appreciate answers to these questions along with a description of how the Army has developed the XM8 program from the original OICW mission requirements, the status of the Army’s small arms testing, the XM8 deployment plan and the phase-out plan for the M16/M4/M203. We are available to meet with you and your staff, at your convenience, to discuss this important and timely issue.

Sincerely,

_____________________
CHRISTOPHER J. DODD
United States Senator

______________________
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN
United States Senator

______________________
JOHN LARSON
Member of Congress

______________________
ROBERT SIMMONS
Member of Congress

______________________
ROSA DELAURO
Member of Congress

______________________
CHRISTOPHER SHAYS
Member of Congress

______________________
NANCY JOHNSON
Member of Congress
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:52:07 PM EDT
Hmmmm, Very Interesting,


Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:56:29 PM EDT
I have no sympathy at all for Colt.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:03:11 PM EDT
Its a nice try, but there are other companies that can make the parts, and keep the specs....
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:05:49 PM EDT
Umm, isn't the XM8 dead.

How can a rifle that H&K no longer has the rights to replace the M16/M4 series?

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:07:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 9:08:25 PM EDT by chrome1]
Funny .... these are the same people that
made it illegal to own a Colt AR 15 in CT the
state where they are made .

Do I need to look up the word hypocrite

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:08:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Umm, isn't the XM8 dead.

How can a rifle that H&K no longer has the rights to replace the M16/M4 series?

WIZZO



XM8 Dead? Not quite

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=246221
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:14:26 PM EDT
Buy American or get the fuck out.

Screw H&K.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:22:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 9:23:55 PM EDT by Hunterex]

Originally Posted By ZW17:
Buy American or get the fuck out.

Screw H&K.




Rather blunt way to make your personal opinion known.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:28:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
Umm, isn't the XM8 dead.

How can a rifle that H&K no longer has the rights to replace the M16/M4 series?

WIZZO



XM8 Dead? Not quite

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=246221



Yeah, I just read that. I thought they sold the rights to the XM-8 to General Dynamics, or something like that.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:32:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 9:34:13 PM EDT by _DR]

July 9, 2004, date of article.

You are just reading this now?

A lot of water has passed under the bridge since that article was written more than a year ago, the H&K XM8 program has an uncertain future.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:39:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chrome1:
Funny .... these are the same people that
made it illegal to own a Colt AR 15 in CT the
state where they are made .

Do I need to look up the word hypocrite




Isn't that a pisser? And I can have an AK as long as it's not 7.62.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:40:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 9:42:53 PM EDT by sysop]

Originally Posted By ZW17:
Buy American or get the fuck out.

Screw H&K.




Do you mean buy Canadian or get the fuck out?

Colt News
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:44:21 PM EDT
Colt certainly doesn't deserve to survive in this incarnation. It HAD almost exclusive control of some of America's iconic firearms like the Model1873 Peacemaker, the M1911A1 and the AR-15 but a combination of inept management, poor marketing and abysmal labour relations meant that it did not build on these. Let it go under and then pick up the pieces under a more dynamic and entreenurial leadership.

It should also leave CT for soemwhere a lot gun friendlier, like VA or TN.

Colt has NOTHING to offer the Army. What do they expect? I don't think the XM8 does anything that a properly set up M-16 doesn't BUT Colt hasn't done anything to this end. They cannot even answer to the HK 416 with anything other than a lawsuit.

Simon
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:56:10 PM EDT
Maybe by the time this is resolved Colt will be out of buisness and we stick with the M4/16 and the contract is awarded to other companies.Maybe XM8 was never intended to replace the M16 but just drive Colt out of buisness.After all the military has had its share of headaches with them over the years.Remember the T44/M14 it went head to head with the FAL after we purchased a small lot but in the end we went with the M14 an american design.Maybe the Armys interest in XM 8 is simply to get Colt out of the M4 picture when so many other companiees make a cheaper just as good quality product.Thats my opinion I see XM8 as something more than a repalcement.If that happens Colt will wish they had changed their tune sooner.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:06:39 PM EDT
Sadly, for the people who would like Colt to die it's not going to happen anytime soon. They are more financially viable now than they have ever been. In the past two years alone they have been awarded over $200 million worth in contracts just from the DoD, to say nothing of their overseas contracts and domestic LEO sales. With the recent aquisition of Diemaco (an excellent move) their global reach has been greatly augmented. Diemaco has one hell of a client list and they've got their shit together. Hopefully Colt won't fuck that up.

I wish they had the manufacturing capacity to squeeze in a few Match Target rifles this year, but it's probably not going to happen given the current backlog
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:10:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
Colt certainly doesn't deserve to survive in this incarnation. It HAD almost exclusive control of some of America's iconic firearms like the Model1873 Peacemaker, the M1911A1 and the AR-15 but a combination of inept management, poor marketing and abysmal labour relations meant that it did not build on these. Let it go under and then pick up the pieces under a more dynamic and entreenurial leadership.

It should also leave CT for soemwhere a lot gun friendlier, like VA or TN.

Colt has NOTHING to offer the Army. What do they expect? I don't think the XM8 does anything that a properly set up M-16 doesn't BUT Colt hasn't done anything to this end. They cannot even answer to the HK 416 with anything other than a lawsuit.

Simon



+1

They put all their eggs in the military basket then lost the 1911 contract. Then their 1911 quailty of their civilian 1911's went into the shitter, plastic triggers, sloppy milling work etc. Then they stopped manufacturing their double action revolvers. Nice move... Then they started cutting corners on their civy AR products, stopped chrome lining barrels, floppy plastic hinges on the buttstock cubby holes.

It's sad really........
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:13:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By CJan_NH:
Sadly, for the people who would like Colt to die it's not going to happen anytime soon. They are more financially viable now than they have ever been. In the past two years alone they have been awarded over $200 million worth in contracts just from the DoD, to say nothing of their overseas contracts and domestic LEO sales. With the recent aquisition of Diemaco (an excellent move) their global reach has been greatly augmented. Diemaco has one hell of a client list and they've got their shit together. Hopefully Colt won't fuck that up.

I wish they had the manufacturing capacity to squeeze in a few Match Target rifles this year, but it's probably not going to happen given the current backlog



Yah, too bad all that money is now going to the Canadian Economy now.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:16:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
Colt certainly doesn't deserve to survive in this incarnation. It HAD almost exclusive control of some of America's iconic firearms like the Model1873 Peacemaker, the M1911A1 and the AR-15 but a combination of inept management, poor marketing and abysmal labour relations meant that it did not build on these. Let it go under and then pick up the pieces under a more dynamic and entreenurial leadership.

It should also leave CT for soemwhere a lot gun friendlier, like VA or TN.

Colt has NOTHING to offer the Army. What do they expect? I don't think the XM8 does anything that a properly set up M-16 doesn't BUT Colt hasn't done anything to this end. They cannot even answer to the HK 416 with anything other than a lawsuit.

Simon



+1

They put all their eggs in the military basket then lost the 1911 contract. Then their 1911 quailty of their civilian 1911's went into the shitter, plastic triggers, sloppy milling work etc. Then they stopped manufacturing their double action revolvers. Nice move... Then they started cutting corners on their civy AR products, stopped chrome lining barrels, floppy plastic hinges on the buttstock cubby holes.

It's sad really........



You can say what you want about the M191A1s. I had the opportunity to carry as a sidearm and qualify with both the M1911 and the M9 duiring my time in the service. The M1911 was a much more robust and lethal pistol, head and shoulders above that P.O.S. Beretta. I'll take a Colt 1911 into battle over that Italian jam-O-matic any day.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:24:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By sysop:

You can say what you want about the M191A1s. I had the opportunity to carry as a sidearm and qualify with both the M1911 and the M9 duiring my time in the service. The M1911 was a much more robust and lethal pistol, head and shoulders above that P.O.S. Beretta. I'll take a Colt 1911 into battle over that Italian jam-O-matic any day.



Don get me wrong DR, I'm a 1911 fan as well, I used to be a Colt 1911 fan. I own Kimbers now.

If someone gave me a new manufactured Colt product today. I'd trade it for a Bushmaster or a Kimber.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:25:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By sysop:

Originally Posted By SimonTan:
Colt certainly doesn't deserve to survive in this incarnation. It HAD almost exclusive control of some of America's iconic firearms like the Model1873 Peacemaker, the M1911A1 and the AR-15 but a combination of inept management, poor marketing and abysmal labour relations meant that it did not build on these. Let it go under and then pick up the pieces under a more dynamic and entreenurial leadership.

It should also leave CT for soemwhere a lot gun friendlier, like VA or TN.

Colt has NOTHING to offer the Army. What do they expect? I don't think the XM8 does anything that a properly set up M-16 doesn't BUT Colt hasn't done anything to this end. They cannot even answer to the HK 416 with anything other than a lawsuit.

Simon



+1

They put all their eggs in the military basket then lost the 1911 contract. Then their 1911 quailty of their civilian 1911's went into the shitter, plastic triggers, sloppy milling work etc. Then they stopped manufacturing their double action revolvers. Nice move... Then they started cutting corners on their civy AR products, stopped chrome lining barrels, floppy plastic hinges on the buttstock cubby holes.

It's sad really........



You can say what you want about the M191A1s. I had the opportunity to carry as a sidearm and qualify with both the M1911 and the M9 duiring my time in the service. The M1911 was a much more robust and lethal pistol, head and shoulders above that P.O.S. Beretta. I'll take a Colt 1911 into battle over that Italian jam-O-matic any day.



He's talking about commercial production of the M1911 design, well after the last batch of USGI M1911's were purchased in 1945. USGI 1911/1911a1's were quality pieces, and I'm proud to be able to say I've carried four of them throughout the years. Three Colt.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:26:10 PM EDT
I hope they succeed, he's a hell of a guy

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:31:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Originally Posted By sysop:

You can say what you want about the M191A1s. I had the opportunity to carry as a sidearm and qualify with both the M1911 and the M9 duiring my time in the service. The M1911 was a much more robust and lethal pistol, head and shoulders above that P.O.S. Beretta. I'll take a Colt 1911 into battle over that Italian jam-O-matic any day.



Don get me wrong DR, I'm a 1911 fan as well, I used to be a Colt 1911 fan. I own Kimbers now.

If someone gave me a new manufactured Colt product today. I'd trade it for a Bushmaster or a Kimber.



Fair enough.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:47:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 11:46:49 PM EDT by mobius]


• What are the shortcomings and performance concerns of the M16/M4/M203 weapons that require the U.S. military to develop a new small arms program?



they know darn well what the shorcomings are.......everyone that has ever had a M16 in a field or combat enviroment knows what the shortcomings are



• Since the XM8 will is now simply a different weapon firing the same ammunition as the weapons currently used by our armed forces, what will the U.S. military gain by replacing the nearly 700,000 M16/M4’s currently in hands of U.S. troops?



what a bunch of assclowns......... thats like SPRINGFIELD saying back on 1937, why do we need a M1 when the M1903 fires the same round?



• What is the projected cost of replacing the M16/M4/M203 to American taxpayers?



yeah right like they give a shit about the American taxpayers dollars........for the longest time colt just expected the gov't to hand them contacts becuase they were colt.





• The Army has awarded the contract for the next generation assault weapon to a foreign company without open competition from U.S. based companies. Does this decision violate any provisions of the Buy American Act?



not if that company builds a arsenal here and hires american workers. this was already hashed out with when FN got the contract to build A2s.......and if I recall FN underbidded them.



• Once the XM8 is fielded, the U.S. military will be relying on a weapons system whose data rights are owned by a foreign company. Are there dangers in H&K supplying technical details on this weapon to “unfriendly states”?



yeah right.........I can just see china and N. korea dropping their AK overnight, and making M8s by the millions..........holy shit, what the fuck are these retards smoking? a small arms design is not like the most vital thing to steal, that will put the national security in jeopardy..........I don't believe that the Kim will gather his cronies around and say, "damn guys we need to get rid of our 3+ million AKs and start making M8s NOW! a "unfriendly state" never stole plans for the M16 and made millions of them.....and those M16 were picked up by the enemy in viet nam in the very early days when they were fielded. it's not like this rifle will have stealth technology or a star trek laser..........



in short these assclowns are grasping for straws.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:15:09 AM EDT
mobius,

i must say teh only realy point i agree with that you made would be the last one.

for the rest i believe you where grasping for straws, so to speak.

this is an old article and a lot has changed since then. hopefully colt will get its act together and enter an improoved design like the m5 in the new trials that are being held, id like to see colt stamped on the side of the next service rifle, much more then a german name anyway.

colt may have stopped being inovative, but it was a two way street. when they did try something new no one wanted it, so it is easy to fall back onto what works and works well for them. if there is an american company that can win the bid for the next rifle of the us military it is colt, but they need to start doing their homework, and from what i have seen f the m5 they seemed to atleast have gotten off their ass.

if i got my way, troops would get the m4 in 6.8. maybe a gas piston if it is worthwhile.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:46:08 AM EDT
If Colt were to die, I would shed not a tear.
If Smith & Wesson were to die, I would shed not a tear.
If Sturm,Ruger and Co were to die, I would shed not a tear.
It is not necessary for a company to deposit fecal matter in my face twice before I turn against them.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 2:27:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 2:33:11 AM EDT by redfisher]

Senators try and save Colt from death


From death??

forget it......

This has become a piñata party with all the natives whacking a stuffed Colt.


Perhaps someone would care to photoshop this "colt"


Link Posted: 8/10/2005 6:30:02 AM EDT
Wow, this is big news. In response to the Congressmen's letter the US Army will have to hold trials to determine what our new rifle will be. Here is what will happen next, H&K will team up with a US company in an attempt to remove the "not invented here" stigma, and will immediately scrap plans to build a US plant. Colt's will gain confidence and buy another manufacturer in order to increase production capability (like say Diemaco?), and might even go public. Competitive weapons trials will start within a year of the letters date. The SCAR program will quietly get shelved until at least after the weapons trials completion. John Kerry will loose the November election for his presidential bid.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:04:09 AM EDT
Well, all Colt bashing aside..... My wife pointed out the obvious to me.... compared to the M16/M4 the XM8 is an ugly rifle. han
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:08:17 AM EDT
What all this says to me is it's amazing how political the whole small arms procurement process is.

Forget any concerns about superior technology or designs, some congressmen who hate assault rifles want to keep their favorite assault rifle maker in the gravy because want the votes and the contributions!

John
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:11:44 AM EDT
Colt got over $175 million in contracts in the last 17 months, check out this thread www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=377599&page=2

They're also sucking up to private security www.colt.com/mil/pvtsecurity.asp

I think they're far from death
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:18:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sysop:
I have no sympathy at all for Colt.



+1 Fuck em.

Live by the .gov teet, die by the .gov teet.

TXL
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:19:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grendelizor:
What all this says to me is it's amazing how political the whole small arms procurement process is.

Forget any concerns about superior technology or designs, some congressmen who hate assault rifles want to keep their favorite assault rifle maker in the gravy because want the votes and the contributions!

John



Small arms procurement? everything is political, they can't change an MRE menu without a subcommitee hearing.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:36:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:
Wow, this is big news. In response to the Congressmen's letter the US Army will have to hold trials to determine what our new rifle will be. Here is what will happen next, H&K will team up with a US company in an attempt to remove the "not invented here" stigma, and will immediately scrap plans to build a US plant. Colt's will gain confidence and buy another manufacturer in order to increase production capability (like say Diemaco?), and might even go public. Competitive weapons trials will start within a year of the letters date. The SCAR program will quietly get shelved until at least after the weapons trials completion. John Kerry will loose the November election for his presidential bid.


And in other news the United States invaded Iraq today with a coalition of the willing...
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:42:52 AM EDT
"Old news, so much has changed, colt is healthy, blah blah blah"

Seems like some people arent familiar with Colt's trends.

Colt made a lot of money in GW1, but was rescued from bankruptcy in 1994 by Donald Zilkha (and almost $30 million from the state of Connecticut). Doesnt take Colt long to dig into a hole again

Colt knows the future of small arms isnt with them so whenever they get an injection of cash they run around trying to buy or enter partnerships with their competitors. They gobbled up Diemaco, which as a company, for sure has their shit together. Smart move. They have failed attempts at FN and HK who know better than to get mixed up with the clowns in CT. They did manage to gobble up Saco Defense which is a Maine based company specializing in automatic weapons for the military, but that was sold off to general dynamics, which also aquired the XM8.

Interesting that the M8 project requires an LMG and modular assault rifle, and those are the two things GD has acquired recently.


Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:49:18 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:51:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PBIR:
I hope they succeed, he's a hell of a guy

www.blogs.ya.com/elnexo/files/231425.jpg



That has to be about one of the funniest things I've seen in a while.

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 7:54:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZW17:
Buy American or get the fuck out.

Screw H&K.




The XM8 is American. 90% of it was designed and researched in New Jersey, USA by the company Alliant Techsystems in partnership with HK. It's a joint venture on the OICW which isnt dead, but alive and well with the military still defining the specs, which I posted elsewhere

Alliant Techsystems are high rollers in the arms industry

YEAR DOD CONTRACTS (millions) DOD RANK % sales to DOD
1996 $456.5 million 26th 45%
1997 $378 million 30th 37%
1998 $316.6 million 34th 31%
1999 $421.9 million 27th 42%

Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:15:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:43:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jimtash9:

Originally Posted By PBIR:
I hope they succeed, he's a hell of a guy

www.blogs.ya.com/elnexo/files/231425.jpg



That has to be about one of the funniest things I've seen in a while.




I thought it was just me. lol
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 8:46:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ZW17:
Buy American or get the fuck out.

Screw H&K.





+1000000000000000000000000­000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000­000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000­000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000­000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000­000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000­0000000000000000000000000000000
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:10:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mobius:


• What are the shortcomings and performance concerns of the M16/M4/M203 weapons that require the U.S. military to develop a new small arms program?



they know darn well what the shorcomings are.......everyone that has ever had a M16 in a field or combat enviroment knows what the shortcomings are



• Since the XM8 will is now simply a different weapon firing the same ammunition as the weapons currently used by our armed forces, what will the U.S. military gain by replacing the nearly 700,000 M16/M4’s currently in hands of U.S. troops?



what a bunch of assclowns......... thats like SPRINGFIELD saying back on 1937, why do we need a M1 when the M1903 fires the same round?



• What is the projected cost of replacing the M16/M4/M203 to American taxpayers?



yeah right like they give a shit about the American taxpayers dollars........for the longest time colt just expected the gov't to hand them contacts becuase they were colt.





• The Army has awarded the contract for the next generation assault weapon to a foreign company without open competition from U.S. based companies. Does this decision violate any provisions of the Buy American Act?



not if that company builds a arsenal here and hires american workers. this was already hashed out with when FN got the contract to build A2s.......and if I recall FN underbidded them.



• Once the XM8 is fielded, the U.S. military will be relying on a weapons system whose data rights are owned by a foreign company. Are there dangers in H&K supplying technical details on this weapon to “unfriendly states”?



yeah right.........I can just see china and N. korea dropping their AK overnight, and making M8s by the millions..........holy shit, what the fuck are these retards smoking? a small arms design is not like the most vital thing to steal, that will put the national security in jeopardy..........I don't believe that the Kim will gather his cronies around and say, "damn guys we need to get rid of our 3+ million AKs and start making M8s NOW! a "unfriendly state" never stole plans for the M16 and made millions of them.....and those M16 were picked up by the enemy in viet nam in the very early days when they were fielded. it's not like this rifle will have stealth technology or a star trek laser..........



in short these assclowns are grasping for straws.




You really need to get a clue.

You argument about the 1903/M1 does not fly because those where two different generations of rifles. The XM8 offers nothing more than the AR15.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:22:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:23:35 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
"Old news, so much has changed, colt is healthy, blah blah blah"

Seems like some people arent familiar with Colt's trends.

Colt made a lot of money in GW1, but was rescued from bankruptcy in 1994 by Donald Zilkha (and almost $30 million from the state of Connecticut). Doesnt take Colt long to dig into a hole again

Colt knows the future of small arms isnt with them so whenever they get an injection of cash they run around trying to buy or enter partnerships with their competitors. They gobbled up Diemaco, which as a company, for sure has their shit together. Smart move. They have failed attempts at FN and HK who know better than to get mixed up with the clowns in CT. They did manage to gobble up Saco Defense which is a Maine based company specializing in automatic weapons for the military, but that was sold off to general dynamics, which also aquired the XM8.

Interesting that the M8 project requires an LMG and modular assault rifle, and those are the two things GD has acquired recently.





For some more "old news", H&K and FN have not been major players since the 1970's. Thier rifle contracts were displaced by Colt's 5.56 weapons decades ago. When talk about infantry rifles have beens, H&K, FN, Sprinfield Armory, FEG, Enfield, etc come to mind. The only major rifle contract FN has had in the past 20 years is making Colt rifles.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:31:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:35:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:
“The company’s business is now predominantly government based and the termination of the M4 carbine would most likely result in the end of Colt. This outcome would have detrimental effects on the Connecticut employees and the US Army, which will need Colt to provide replacement parts for the M4 until it can be completely phased out around the end of this decade.”





Well if colt wouldn't be such assholes in thier marketing and sales to the civilian market maybe the potential loss of M4 sales to the military wouldn't hurt them so bad.

It's their own damn fault. Fuckum, they made thier business decisions and they are or may just very well be bad ones in the end.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 9:35:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 9:37:14 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Ekie:


The only major rifle contract FN has had in the past 20 years is making Colt rifles.



Let's try Mk46, Mk48, M2, M3, M16a4, M249, M240... how about the new EGLM and SCAR, FN got the small arms industry by the balls.

Colt has only M4s...



I said rifles. SCAR, you have to be joking, what kinda production numbers are we looking at, 10? Come on, not worth mentioning. Big FN contracts for rifles are a thing of the past, other then the one I mentioned, that being making Colt rifles.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:06:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 10:07:25 AM EDT by SMGLee]
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:17:35 AM EDT
Shays is my neighbor, some douchebag at his party last night hit my car in front of my house! I have to go talk to him about that tonight, so I may ask him what the deal is with all this, then again he may not even know dick about it. If I find anything out I'll report here.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:17:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

lol, SCAR.. I know, i just had to toss it in... actually the number is up to 100 now.

Making Colt rifles is one way of saying it, but you can also say Colt is making Armalite rifles... 16 is a 16 don't matter who makes them.. in the beginning FN has uderbid themselves and did not get the proper engineer help from Colt. They had a hard time getting production started. once they got going, they are a stream roller...

M16 family is facing EOL... who will be making the next gen rifle is up in the air..



OK, 100 FN rifles.

Sure, the "M16 family" will some day be displaced as the premier 5.56 rifle. The question is when, and who, and that is far from being decided at this point.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:18:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:


For some more "old news", H&K and FN have not been major players since the 1970's. Thier rifle contracts were displaced by Colt's 5.56 weapons decades ago. When talk about infantry rifles have beens, H&K, FN, Sprinfield Armory, FEG, Enfield, etc come to mind. The only major rifle contract FN has had in the past 20 years is making Colt rifles.



+1000
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 10:18:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:


For some more "old news", H&K and FN have not been major players since the 1970's. Thier rifle contracts were displaced by Colt's 5.56 weapons decades ago. When talk about infantry rifles have beens, H&K, FN, Sprinfield Armory, FEG, Enfield, etc come to mind. The only major rifle contract FN has had in the past 20 years is making Colt rifles.



+1000
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