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Posted: 2/21/2007 5:00:08 AM EST
Hold the groans, guys... an old-timer needs help here.

I have been talking with a young lion fresh from street combat in the sandbox. His war was MUCH different from mine, even though I thought I knew about urban fighting from all the years I spent on SWAT. I was chagrined to discover that a lot of what I hold dear is really not the best way to do things in a high-energy environment.

Reader's Digest version: I want to get a short, light AR-15 carbine/M4 clone/whatever with a flat top and a low-power scope. I want a scope instead of a red dot sight for several reasons, which aren't germane here and will just clutter the issue.

I want my cake and be able to eat it too... insofar as is possible. The new BushMaster "Optic-Ready Carbine" looks to be just what the doctor ordered, and I have been satisfied with my BM standard A2 carbine. But I'm open to suggestions, especially regarding glass. The Leupold FX-II 2.5x20 looks appealing, but I realize there are many more options out there. Please help me narrow my search. Basically, what I'm looking for is a 100-200 yard gun that shoots MOT (Minute of Thug), and has a scope that has a rather wide field of view yet provides a quick, precise aiming point.

I am NOT interested in building a rifle. I want something off the shelf. I am not locked into any particular brand,and will consider all suggestions.

Many thanks in advance...

.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:02:34 AM EST
As far as an optic goes look at the trijicon Acog. It sounds like it fits the bill
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:11:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 5:15:26 AM EST by Onslaught]
I say NO on the Bushmaster... It's just a fancy new term slapped on a flat top upper with a shaved gas block. IMHO, it actually limits your choices significantly because you either have to replace the shaved GB or use the one clamp-on they offer.

I say CMMG for sure. I would vote 16" mid-length in either govt. (preferred) or medium profile, or maybe even one of their new stainless barrelled uppers.

Fixed front sight is really fine even with a low powered optic, but if you prefer a folding front sight, CMMG gives you options.

I would suggest something like one of USMC03's "General Purpose" carbines for a no-nonsense weapon that sounds like it fits EXACTLY within your stated requirements.


This picture OBVIOUSLY borrowed (without permission) from Zak Smith. I will remove IMMEDIATELY upon request by Zak or USMC03 with my sincerest apologies.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:16:33 AM EST
+1 on CMMG. but a White-Oak-Armament (WOA) setup will fit the "precision bill" without costing you excessive $$$
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:30:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 5:47:42 AM EST by southpaw67]
CMMG or possibly a Stag Model3 carbine. flattop rec, carbine gas system, railed gasblock. Its their lowest priced complete rifle or just the lower. I meant complete upper.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:44:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/21/2007 5:56:00 AM EST by Molon]
For the situation you've described I really like the Leupold Mark 4 1.5 - 5 X 20mm MR/T. It has a great field of view, has illumination and an excellent reticle for the conditions you've described.











Here's a view of the reticle from an ACOG TA-11 for comparison.







Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:51:13 AM EST
Everyone has their own opinion; so here is mine Look at Olympic Arms LT M4 Flattop with the quad rail. Its what I shoot and will do sub MOA. Plus I have Olys .22 adapter and can shoot cheap. Glass is what ever a person prefers. I use a Burris Fullfield; but get what suits you.
Link Posted: 2/21/2007 5:54:12 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/22/2007 7:15:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/22/2007 7:24:45 PM EST by CK]

Originally Posted By LSP972:
Hold the groans, guys... an old-timer needs help here.

I have been talking with a young lion fresh from street combat in the sandbox. His war was MUCH different from mine, even though I thought I knew about urban fighting from all the years I spent on SWAT. I was chagrined to discover that a lot of what I hold dear is really not the best way to do things in a high-energy environment.

Reader's Digest version: I want to get a short, light AR-15 carbine/M4 clone/whatever with a flat top and a low-power scope. I want a scope instead of a red dot sight for several reasons, which aren't germane here and will just clutter the issue.

I want my cake and be able to eat it too... insofar as is possible. The new BushMaster "Optic-Ready Carbine" looks to be just what the doctor ordered, and I have been satisfied with my BM standard A2 carbine. But I'm open to suggestions, especially regarding glass. The Leupold FX-II 2.5x20 looks appealing, but I realize there are many more options out there. Please help me narrow my search. Basically, what I'm looking for is a 100-200 yard gun that shoots MOT (Minute of Thug), and has a scope that has a rather wide field of view yet provides a quick, precise aiming point.

I am NOT interested in building a rifle. I want something off the shelf. I am not locked into any particular brand,and will consider all suggestions.

Many thanks in advance...

.


Here's what I dug out of the gun safe and put together for your very request - This is a Colt 6920 (and a G29 10mm) topped with a Titan 30mm 1.5-6x piece of glass that catches targets at point blank ranges (1.5x) to as far as you can see with the 6x power - And no, the front sight post does not interfere, quite a nice setup that I might keep configured - Thanks for the idea of the MOT setup.




Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:39:27 AM EST
Many thanks for all the suggestions. Delving a bit deeper, I now think the BM V Match carbine upper is more like what I desire; and that Leupold M4 as shown by Molon looks to be JUST the ticket.

Regarding that optic, any particular vendors to check out? I'm not too concerned about price, but I don't want to get raped without benefit of lubrication either...
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:27:46 AM EST
10-22 the Leupold info.

I ran across the Burris Euro Diamond 1-4x24mm; more suited to my budget and EXACTLY the sort of reticle I was looking for. The Leupold reticle was bit too, well, "light" is as good a word as any.

Thanks again for all the advice.

.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:32:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By LSP972:
10-22 the Leupold info.

I ran across the Burris Euro Diamond 1-4x24mm; more suited to my budget and EXACTLY the sort of reticle I was looking for. The Leupold reticle was bit too, well, "light" is as good a word as any.

Thanks again for all the advice.

.


glad you found it, make sure you post up here and on BS.com what you go with.

wonder how many people here know what 10-22 means... lol
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:52:32 AM EST
LMT.MRP with stainless 16" barrel.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 8:55:04 AM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By GutWrench:
LMT.MRP with stainless 16" barrel.


Ditto, I just purchased one from operationparts.com/lmt.html. They have many in stock and I had a hard time finding anyone who did. The nice thing about the MRP is that you can go from shooting 5.56 to 6.8 SPC in less than 1 minute.



Link Posted: 2/23/2007 10:04:47 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 10:09:11 AM EST by Gimme_A_Carbine]
Personally I would just add an ACOG (2 or 3x) to your A2 and call it quits. But if you want something else, here's what I suggest:

If you're not into building a rifle, get one from CMMG.

For your purposes I would get a 14.5in M4 profile with a permanent Phantom. With a flat top, I'd just use a 2 or 3x ACOG in a LaRue mount (or a fullsize ACOG if you prefer) and a Troy BUIS. I'd toss a Magpul CTR on it too, but not neccessary.

This setup is light weight and very well balanced. Also, it is quick up close, yet precise at the ranges specified.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 11:09:30 AM EST
Ignore the color, I'll finish the urban camo job some day




All RRA except the barrel and free float. Barrel is ER Shaw 1:9 Chrome Lined, FF is YHM

Scope is Leupold 2-9 MK IV PR Mil Dot on Warne Mounts.

She shoots 3/4 MOA with Frderal 62gr AE.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:18:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By topgunz1:
wonder how many people here know what 10-22 means... lol


Yeah. That kinda slipped out...

.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 2:26:32 PM EST
I do! I do!
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:09:53 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:25:16 PM EST
Mid-length RRA stainless, Larue Lt104 SPR mount with a Meopta variable power, 1-4x, Leupold 1-3x or SB short Dot.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 3:59:22 PM EST
if you've got the money, go with the ACOG.
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 4:06:02 PM EST
CMMG 16" MedCon middy with Larue 9.0 FF rail
Larue SPR mount
Leupold Mk 4 MR/T M2 1.5-5x w/illuminated SPR reticle
Link Posted: 2/23/2007 7:01:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/23/2007 7:04:47 PM EST by JOHNNY223]

Originally Posted By triburst1:
CMMG 16" MedCon middy with Larue 9.0 FF rail
Larue SPR mount
Leupold Mk 4 MR/T M2 1.5-5x w/illuminated SPR reticle


+1 for CMMG -- they will make anything you want.

Listed parts above are a good choice.

The Vmatch Bushmaster is IMHO not the way to go. Too much weight -- Heavy handguard + HBAR barrel = slower to manuver. I should know -- I have one.

cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cart=596107&cat=32&

Good luck.

J223...
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 5:40:52 AM EST

Originally Posted By JOHNNY223:
The Vmatch Bushmaster is IMHO not the way to go. Too much weight...


Okay... how MUCH weight? BM says 6.8 pounds with A2 stock and no optic/rings. My lower has the collapsible stock. I figure the weight of the scope and rings will compensate for the lesser weight of the tele-stock; seven pounds ain't bad.

Now, I HAVE seen some M4-types that weighed over 12 pounds, due to all the ninja shit strapped on. I have a white light on it now, but this scoped upper will be "clean".

.
Link Posted: 2/24/2007 7:08:39 AM EST
Semi-precise? Are you looking to get a gun that only hits its targets half the time?

Just playing with you.


All of the suggestions here are good.

I can't really add anything new other than if you can, go to a gunshow or local vendor and get some hands-on experience with the different optics to see what you like best.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 10:51:16 AM EST
I'll throw in my .02 ............. The pic above is of me at our monthly run and gun matches (3 yards to 425 yards)


I would stay away from Bushmaster at the present time, their quality control and customer service has sucked over the last few years and their prices have risen.

I would also stay away from the LMT MRP. Everyone that I know that has purchased one has sold it due to lack of acceptable accuracy, because the barrel came loose during a tactical training class, etc.

If you want to go with a M4 vaiant, I would go with a Colt, Stag Arms, or LMT.

For an urban enviornment a mid-lenght (like the one pictured above) can be desireable as a mid-lenght give you a long fore end to rest on barricades, etc. The better you can steady the gun, the better your chances of getting hits on target.

For a Mid-Length I would recommend a Rock River Arms or get a Stag Arms lower, upper, bolt carrier group, charging handle, and have a dealer (that sells both Stag and RRA) put a RRA mid-length barrel on the upper for you.

The gun pictured above is a complete Stag Arms gun with a Rock River Arms chrome lined barrel that has reprofiled by ADCO firearms.

For info on optics read my replies here (screen name USMC03)

www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104260&page=1#Post104260


This one is geared a little more toward LEO use:
www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=80654&page=1&fpart=2



Semper Fi
Jeff
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 11:03:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By USMC03:
I'll throw in my .02 ............. The pic above is of me at our monthly run and gun matches (3 yards to 425 yards)


I would stay away from Bushmaster at the present time, their quality control and customer service has sucked over the last few years and their prices have risen.

I would also stay away from the LMT MRP. Everyone that I know that has purchased one has sold it due to lack of acceptable accuracy, because the barrel came loose during a tactical training class, etc.

If you want to go with a M4 vaiant, I would go with a Colt, Stag Arms, or LMT.

For an urban enviornment a mid-lenght (like the one pictured above) can be desireable as a mid-lenght give you a long fore end to rest on barricades, etc. The better you can steady the gun, the better your chances of getting hits on target.

For a Mid-Length I would recommend a Rock River Arms or get a Stag Arms lower, upper, bolt carrier group, charging handle, and have a dealer (that sells both Stag and RRA) put a RRA mid-length barrel on the upper for you.

The gun pictured above is a complete Stag Arms gun with a Rock River Arms chrome lined barrel that has reprofiled by ADCO firearms.

For info on optics read my replies here (screen name USMC03)

www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=104260&page=1#Post104260


This one is geared a little more toward LEO use:
www.snipershide.net/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=80654&page=1&fpart=2



Semper Fi
Jeff


The only problems I've seen with bushmaster are the bolt / carriers. The barrels are pretty good as long as you don't want any M4 cuts.

I've heard good things about CMMG, but yet to see many; therefore I can't really recommend them. Also, DPMS is shoddy still, but getting better.

My idea of a good build:
Colt 6520 barrel cut down to 14.7 and rethreaded and FS welded.
Colt carrier and bolt
Lower of your choice as long as not cast.
M4 Upper of your choice as long as not cast and has m4 cuts.
Internals by RRA with match trigger.
stock by magpul.

Optics of your choice, but mine would be a TA11.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 11:12:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By LSP972:

Originally Posted By JOHNNY223:
The Vmatch Bushmaster is IMHO not the way to go. Too much weight...

Okay... how MUCH weight? BM says 6.8 pounds with A2 stock and no optic/rings.
.


Not so much the weight as it is the balance. A friend of mine had an Olympic carbine with a heavy barrel like the v-match. I dare say my 20" gov't profile (thin under the handguards) barrel balanced BETTER than his carbine. An extra pound out front really changes the handling of a weapon.

My uneducated advice is to get a midlength barrel with either a gov't profile or a medium contour (i.e. .70" it's entire length) barrel, flattop upper, back up irons sights, and an appropriate scope no more than 5 or 6x.
You say you have an A2-uppered M4 you're pleased with now, I might be inclined to simply add a Compact Acog in 3x to your carry handle and call it a day.

Some people use the Acogs for up close like a red dot, both eyes open (but keeping in mind parallax issues and such). I've never tried it, and have no "urban combat" experience, so take my advice FWIW.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 1:16:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By sic_ness:
say you have an A2-uppered M4 you're pleased with now, I might be inclined to simply add a Compact Acog in 3x to your carry handle and call it a day.


Great minds think alike...

I have come to that conclusion; although I'm now questioning my need for the scope part. I'll be retired in a few days; any offensive use will be dire straights indeed. And the truth of the matter is that a good dot sight will hold MOT out to where I need it to.

Thanks for all of the suggestions/advice, everyone; it was educational.

.
Link Posted: 2/27/2007 3:29:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/27/2007 3:32:19 PM EST by BadSVT]


Basically my do all gun.

10.5" 6.8 that will shoot MOA using crappy ass remington core locks. The optics allow me to shoot both eyes open up close and is precise enough to shoot turkey heads at 100 yards.

A similar rig can be purchased from noveske.
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