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9/17/2020 5:59:48 PM
Posted: 4/18/2008 3:46:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/18/2008 3:51:09 PM EDT by mrozowjj]
Go here to see the results of my first range visit.

I decided I should document my visits to the range to see my improvements if any over the course of the summer as I'm have a lot of free time and every other friday off because of my work schedule.

I went to the range again, only the second time with my AR-15. I tried to take everyone's advice to basically move slower and work on slowly squeezing the trigger, etc to see how it would do.

It was insanely hot out and for whatever reason all of the pollen came out today so I was sneezing up a storm and my eyes were tearing up, so I didn't stay as long as I'd have liked to. I only got to put 60 rounds through my AR today which is a total of 190 rounds through the gun. I'm not new to guns just to ARs though I never really got much range time so I'm not as good as I'd like to be, yet anyway.

All the targets were at 40 YARDS cause I figured until I get better there is no need to go out farther.

First 20 rounds:



2nd Target - 10 Rounds.



3rd Target - 10 More Rounds


4th and Final AR Target - 20 Rounds


The first 10 were the L shape and tighter overall but I couldn't go down range to replace the targets and wanted to fire off 10 more before I left, but I'm still pretty proud of that last one. I saved it and I think I'm going to hang it up in my cubical wall. I'd say there was a definite improvement over my last visit. Not significant, not waving a magic wand an instantly headshots at 300  yards improvement, but still improvement.

Questions/Comments/Observations:
I bought a cheapo pair of binoculars to help me figure out where I'm shooting without calling an all clear at the range every 5 minutes, which was a good idea.

I keep adjusting my FSP up and my windage knob to adjust the point of aim to try and get it to center on the target but it keeps shooting down and to the left a bit for the most part which is lame and I don't really know what to do about it. I still think I'd prefer a different front sight post. See my post here.

I need to put a marker or pen in my range toolbox to mark up the targets while there so I don't have to remember and label the pictures later.

I still suck with pistols.
Link Posted: 4/18/2008 4:17:05 PM EDT
I guessing that you don't having the breathing down yet. It looks like you are shooting after you let out all the air. In the one picture it looks like the barrel is resting on the front board. If it is then rest the rifle on the front stock. Even if the rifle isn't sighted in it should shoot a tight group in the wrong spot.
I always tell my boys that the breathing is almost like meditation, easy, relaxed, small exhale, shoot. If you don't shoot within 1-2 seconds after exhaling then start over.
Link Posted: 4/18/2008 4:23:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By carbine85:
I guessing that you don't having the breathing down yet. It looks like you are shooting after you let out all the air. In the one picture it looks like the barrel is resting on the front board. If it is then rest the rifle on the front stock. Even if the rifle isn't sighted in it should shoot a tight group in the wrong spot.
I always tell my boys that the breathing is almost like meditation, easy, relaxed, small exhale, shoot. If you don't shoot within 1-2 seconds after exhaling then start over.


This time I was resting it on the forearm the entire time I was shooting.
Link Posted: 4/18/2008 6:41:22 PM EDT
Just keep going to the range and practice good technique: proper sight picture, trigger squeeze, breathing, posture, etc.  Good shooting will come with time and practice.  I've been at school and not been able to shoot much this last 3yrs and my accuracy has definately dropped when I'm able to shoot on breaks.  But I'm not worried cause I know with practice I'll get back to where I was and hopefully better.

Good job on your improvements and keep up the good work.  
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 7:09:51 AM EDT
With any luck I'm going to be on a every 2 week schedule.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 7:25:41 AM EDT
fundamentals of marksmenship

steady position
aiming
breathing
trigger squeeze

keep your nose to the charging handle and dont jerk the trigger..should be a suprise when it goes off the hold trigger to the rear and slowly release you should hear a metalic click when you release and your shots should nice and tight!
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 8:19:58 AM EDT
Pick up a sheet or two of the 1" orange stick-on dots. Always put one on the center of the target. This makes it easier to align the sights on center every shot. Use the small aperture and take your time. There are a number of reasons for your inaccuracy. One may be your perception of the 'sight picture' - that's why you use the small aperture - it makes the 'ghost ring' smaller so you're more likely to center the post in the circle. Just imagine the post is the bottom element of a 'cross hair' sight and center it vertically and horizontally. Fire three rounds in a slow, deliberate fashion and clear the weapon. Either 'glass' or retrieve the target and proceed to adjust the sights to move the center of the group. There's an involved procedure for determining the center of any group, but you're shooting well enough now to estimate it. Assuming your sights are mil-spec, move both sights the proper amount. Shoot three rounds again. Ideally, the group will now be centered at the point of aim (POA). Forty yards is not a bad range for the near-zero but it does negate the range settings on the rear sight, which is set up for a twenty five meter zero. Still, for most combat situations a forty yard zero will do the trick out to about 250 yards. If you do the above but your groups still wander, you have to consider mechanical problems with the weapon or your shooting technique as the others have explained.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 1:15:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2008 1:24:21 PM EDT by 12_gauge]
Are you firing offhanded? If so, nothing to be ashamed of in the least.

As far as always adjusting your sights, put your nose to the charging handle. It sounds like you may have a poor cheek weld going on here.

Seated, using something as a rest, at 40 yards you should be punching a 2" 20 shot group with iron sights after you get the fundamentals down and are using decent ammo.

Keep practicing and striving to be better and correcting any bad habits with good ones, and you will amaze yourself!

Congrats on keeping with it and having fun, that's what this is about!

I want to one day punch 1-1.5 MOA 100 yard groups. Hence I put in as much time behind the trigger as my wallet will allow--thats the only way. That and DRY FIRE A LOT! It won't hurt your AR in the least unless you do it with the upper taken off.

ETA: Looking at your original post...I see improvement

ETA: Do the IBZ mod for Zeroing. Flip your sight to where you can get a 1/16" allen wrench in that hole behind the sight. Loosen that screw 3 turns. Turn the lower part of the elevation wheel (yes, it is a 2-piece unit) clockwise 2 clicks. re-tq the screw.

During this operation, the allen-wrench stays in the screw and the screw does not move. Only the lower wheel.

You should now be able to adjust your elevation so you are at 8/3-2 clicks.

Sight this in at 36 yards using the small aperature and hit to POA with your sight set at 8/3.

Now when you move your sight down to 8/3-2, you will be +- 2.5" up or down all the way out to almost 250 yards. In-close, that is a 50 yard zero.

This is opposed to just using an 8/3 zero and being 5" +- out to 328 yards. The IBZ is much more "useful", and with 2 clicks, you have your 8/3 and calibrated wheel at your disposal.

Your elevation wheel remains calibrated.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 2:20:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 12_gauge:
Seated, using something as a rest, at 40 yards you should be punching a 2" 20 shot group with iron sights after you get the fundamentals down and are using decent ammo.


I've been using M193 Prvi Partizan (Serbia) 5.56mm FMJ, 55gr cause it's cheap-ish. Not sure if that matters. I think I'm gonna buy some PMC stuff soon and maybe more of the Priv cause I'm almost out.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 3:10:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2008 3:19:28 PM EDT by RealTeacher]
Yes Mrozowjj,  ammo IS important!
No rifle, no matter how well built, is more accurate than it's ammo.

I would recommend you buy a box or two of Black Hills or Federal Match ammo.

Go shoot it and take all the time and effort you need to, and make the best groups you can!
Then you will have a "standard" to measure from.

You see, the truth is that you need to establish a standard that you can look at and measure from.  You may be improving your skill in your hold, your trigger control your breath control and so on, but if your ammo is only able to hold a 7MOA standard, then 7 inches at 100 yds (and 3.4" at 40 yds) IS ALL YOU'LL EVER GET!

So, do what you must to get some EXCELLENT ammo to shoot with at least 2 times a year, so you can see what improvements you are making.  If you go out and spend $20 on 20 rounds, but you shoot them into 1/2" at 40 yds, I think you'd come to the conclusion that YOU are shooting just fine, but the ammo is the problem.

But if you shoot a 3" group with the match ammo, and a 3.5" group with the Prvi-Pattizan, you will have to work on your technique, of even look at your bore or crown, or something mechanical, to explain the large group.

One thing that can help immensely is to mount a scope on the rifle if only for testing the ammo and your shooting form.  Scopes eliminate the possibility of bad sight alignment.  Many match shooters use scopes to work up their loads, and then switch to irons for matches  You need not buy a high end scope.  Just something that allows you to test your ammo.  I use a Weaver K-6 and am very happy with it.
Also a good trigger is a huge help.

2 "last thoughts".
#1 Remember, sight alignment is more important than sight picture.
#2  Your natural point of aim is important! Far more so than a lot of shooters think.

Good luck and good shooting.

Link Posted: 4/19/2008 4:14:38 PM EDT
i often post pictures of my targets but i post them in the shot gun forum
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 4:38:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RealTeacher:
Yes Mrozowjj,  ammo IS important!
No rifle, no matter how well built, is more accurate than it's ammo.

I would recommend you buy a box or two of Black Hills or Federal Match ammo.



That came out wrong. I didn't mean to say ammo wasn't important, I meant I'm not sure if Prvi was actually good stuff or not. It seems to shoot pretty well and it's pretty damn cheap.

I bought a box of the Federal black boxed stuff at my local store for $10 and I couldn't tell if it was any better accuracy wise. It looked dirtier though. If it's supposedly that much better though I can make that my next ammo purchase. Natchezss Is selling it for $8 a box which is roughly what the Prvi is going for.

I can't find Black Hills online anywhere at all. If I could I'd give it a go.

Side note, on snap caps do I want all metal ones or the plastic ones? I'm going to get some for my 9mm and the AR, not sure which one is better or worse.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 4:54:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RealTeacher:
Yes Mrozowjj,  ammo IS important!
No rifle, no matter how well built, is more accurate than it's ammo.

I would recommend you buy a box or two of Black Hills or Federal Match ammo.

Go shoot it and take all the time and effort you need to, and make the best groups you can!
Then you will have a "standard" to measure from.

You see, the truth is that you need to establish a standard that you can look at and measure from.  You may be improving your skill in your hold, your trigger control your breath control and so on, but if your ammo is only able to hold a 7MOA standard, then 7 inches at 100 yds (and 3.4" at 40 yds) IS ALL YOU'LL EVER GET!

So, do what you must to get some EXCELLENT ammo to shoot with at least 2 times a year, so you can see what improvements you are making.  If you go out and spend $20 on 20 rounds, but you shoot them into 1/2" at 40 yds, I think you'd come to the conclusion that YOU are shooting just fine, but the ammo is the problem.

But if you shoot a 3" group with the match ammo, and a 3.5" group with the Prvi-Pattizan, you will have to work on your technique, of even look at your bore or crown, or something mechanical, to explain the large group.

One thing that can help immensely is to mount a scope on the rifle if only for testing the ammo and your shooting form.  Scopes eliminate the possibility of bad sight alignment.  Many match shooters use scopes to work up their loads, and then switch to irons for matches  You need not buy a high end scope.  Just something that allows you to test your ammo.  I use a Weaver K-6 and am very happy with it.
Also a good trigger is a huge help.

2 "last thoughts".
#1 Remember, sight alignment is more important than sight picture.
#2  Your natural point of aim is important! Far more so than a lot of shooters think.

Good luck and good shooting.


Honestly, what he has is decent.  Until he gets the basics down, there is no reason to go to BH or other costly ammo...it's a bit of a waste.

I would say keep shooting the Privi, and work on your technique.  If you want to get into precision shooting later on, then either start reloading your own (which isn't a bad idea either way) or buy match grade ammo.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 4:54:37 PM EDT
I would encourage you to continue practicing as much as you wallet will allow, with the Privi. It is capable of much tighter accuracy, so it is not your limiting factor right now. Once you get your groups down into the 2" range, then you will start to see the ammo selection start to make a big difference.

When you start shooting group after group and expecting to see them tighter than they are, its time to start working with your ammo selection. You will start to anticipate more accuracy than you are getting when you reach the limit of the ammo in your gun.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 4:56:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/19/2008 4:58:30 PM EDT by jeffm1000]
Try a different target, one that has a different colored bullseye.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 5:07:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mrozowjj:
Go here to see the results of my first range visit.

I decided I should document my visits to the range to see my improvements if any over the course of the summer as I'm have a lot of free time and every other friday off because of my work schedule.

I went to the range again, only the second time with my AR-15. I tried to take everyone's advice to basically move slower and work on slowly squeezing the trigger, etc to see how it would do.

It was insanely hot out and for whatever reason all of the pollen came out today so I was sneezing up a storm and my eyes were tearing up, so I didn't stay as long as I'd have liked to. I only got to put 60 rounds through my AR today which is a total of 190 rounds through the gun. I'm not new to guns just to ARs though I never really got much range time so I'm not as good as I'd like to be, yet anyway.

All the targets were at 40 YARDS cause I figured until I get better there is no need to go out farther.

First 20 rounds:
jesse.mrozowski.com/photos/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=8662&g2_serialNumber=2


2nd Target - 10 Rounds.
jesse.mrozowski.com/photos/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=8677&g2_serialNumber=2


3rd Target - 10 More Rounds
jesse.mrozowski.com/photos/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=8682&g2_serialNumber=2

4th and Final AR Target - 20 Rounds
jesse.mrozowski.com/photos/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=8693&g2_serialNumber=2

The first 10 were the L shape and tighter overall but I couldn't go down range to replace the targets and wanted to fire off 10 more before I left, but I'm still pretty proud of that last one. I saved it and I think I'm going to hang it up in my cubical wall. I'd say there was a definite improvement over my last visit. Not significant, not waving a magic wand an instantly headshots at 300  yards improvement, but still improvement.

Questions/Comments/Observations:
I bought a cheapo pair of binoculars to help me figure out where I'm shooting without calling an all clear at the range every 5 minutes, which was a good idea.

I keep adjusting my FSP up and my windage knob to adjust the point of aim to try and get it to center on the target but it keeps shooting down and to the left a bit for the most part which is lame and I don't really know what to do about it. I still think I'd prefer a different front sight post. See my post here.

I need to put a marker or pen in my range toolbox to mark up the targets while there so I don't have to remember and label the pictures later.

I still suck with pistols.



Go here and read.

First, you need to achieve a proper zero at 25 meters through the application of the basics of rifle marksmanship.

If you don't understand what you are doing then you will merely develop bad habits that will keep you from applying the basics.

After you under stand the basics of rifle marksmanship then you can decide on a 50 meter battle sight zero or a 100 meter battle sight zero.

Rifle marksmanship can be broken down into mechanical training, sight alignment, position, trigger control and breathing.  Together these are the integrated act of shooting.

While trigger control and breathing are essential, position is also essential.  An improper position that places pressure on the barrel, as a mechanically unstable aspect, or contorts the shooter so that muscles become fatigued is as bad as jerking the trigger.

You need to do everything exactly the same, everytime.  That's the only way to achieve a tight shot group.  With an AR-15 with A1 or A2 iron sights, you should be able to achieve a dime size three-round shot grop at 25 meters.

You aren't doing things exactly the same in every string.

Another issue is ammunition.  If your Stag is a 1/9 twist it may not be stabilizing 55gr ammunition sufficently.  The PP 55gr is adequate service grade ammunition, but a 1/9 twist might do better with 62 grain M855.
Link Posted: 4/19/2008 9:35:55 PM EDT
Which shooting position are you using? Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone? Standing is trickier to keep tight groups, I like to wrap my arm through my sling to keep it more steady.

What everybody else said...watch trigger control, sight picture, I take a deep breath...breath out a bit and then hold it while I ease the trigger back. You'll get better and better with practice.

I suck at handgun shooting as well.
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