Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Site Notices
Posted: 5/13/2005 4:59:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 3:21:46 PM EST by CSGunWorkscom]
Link Posted: 5/13/2005 5:04:03 PM EST
Hi Mike,

I'm sure everyone would say that they would love to have one!!! I'm also sure that most here have never acutually looked at one up close! Since they are a little pricey I wish I could afford to get one, but I am not that fortunate....

Ant
Link Posted: 5/14/2005 1:51:25 PM EST
I certainly don't hold myself out as a S&B expert but, I have owned a couple of them. While the optical quality of the brand is superb, they do have IMHO some severe shortcomings as shooting devices.

1: Extremely limited windage and elevation adjustments. Do the Germans only shoot at less than 500 yards and only in very calm wind?

2: Very short eye relief. This is fine if you are looking to get a Heidleburg dueling scar from the scope occular during recoil but, I am unable to discern any other advantage.

3: Reticle in the forward optical plane. The manuals say this grants the great advantage of the cross-hairs maintaining the same relative size at all magnifications. Other than being able to use the mill dots at any magnification, this "advantage" completely elludes me. What I do know is that if you dial in max magnification, the cross-hairs will blank out a gopher at 400 yards. Conversely, If you go to min magnification for stalking in the brush, the cross-hairs become so thin that it's extremely difficult to pick them up in a hurry.

Thus my use of the past tense "owned".

Mis dos centavos.

SD
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 5:27:46 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/16/2005 8:50:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/16/2005 8:51:43 PM EST by m4hk33]
personaly i have never used one but, when i decided to get the best scope availible for me, I went with a US optics scope that i can beat somebody with if i run out of ammo

also none of the contractors that i work with over hear have one, most are either Leupold, NF, or USOptics

me personallly, i agree with sailor dude, it may be great for target shooting, but for real world use in a hostile enviroment, i would not want to be the first guy to get one, untill i see one over hear and get to play with it, i think that much of the price is the result of how the euro is doing against the dollar,

for 3000 you can get every option on an USO, i THINK, a comprable PMIII states at 2900
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 2:49:27 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 5:12:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 7:35:19 AM EST
The S&B tactical scopes are GREAT. In the same quality regime,if US Optics doesn't do it for you, the only other serious choice is the S&B tactical line.

My shooting partner for the ITRC has one on his bolt rifle and shot it in that match last year. It is an older model without the "double turn" feature. It's got a mildot reticle with half-mil hashes, and uses metric (0.1mil) clicks. In the one revolution of the elevation knob, it has 13 MILS of elevation up from zero (ie, 44.7 minutes), which is enough to get most 308 loads out to 1100 to 1300 yards -- ie, their trans-sonic limit.

The new models with the double-turn feature have 22 mils elevation up from zero (ie, 75.7 minutes), which is more than you need to shoot 50BMG to 1900 yards (1760 is 1 mile). No small arms cartridge I'm aware of including 338LM will stay supersonic at a range requiring 75 minutes elevation, except for 50BMG, which will be good to 2100 yards with 75 minutes and the 750gr AMAX (BC 1.050).

Summary: The allegation that S&B have limited elevation and windage adjustments is total BS

The eye relief of most of the PMII's (see the table here: http://www3.mb.sympatico.ca/~jhipwell/schmidt2.htm ) is listed as 3.5". As comparison, a USO SN3 has eye relief between 3.0 and 4", and the Leupold 3.5-10x40mm M1 eye relief of 3.4" at 10x. I was shooting my 22x SN3 with the same or shorter eye relief on my 50BMG this weekend with no problems.

Summary: The allegation that S&B have especially short eye relief is total BS

First-focal plane reticles are the choice for anybody who actually uses a reticle for ranging and holdoff under time constraints or under stress. A second focal plane reticle which does not "change apparent size" as the power is changed does not demarcate the same angular measurement at every power-- it is typically only valid at the high power. The result is that your mildots or Horus reticle are USELESS at any power besides max.

In much tactical-type shooting, it it useful or mandatory to use a power lower than maximum (which is typically in the range of 10x - 20x for these scopes) because the shooter needs to monitor a wider field of view or because he is engaging close or moving targets.

The reason most mildot reticles have those very thick "brackets" out beyond the 4 mildot markers is so that when the FFP scope is turned down in power, the bracketing part of the reticle is still very visible, even though the fine crosshairs now appear smaller.

If I'm using mildots or even a Horus matrix for windage correction or for lead/trail on moving targets, then I don't want to be required to be at the maximum power of the scope. I want to dial the scope power appropriate for what I'm looking at and still use the reticle features.

Summary: There are some REALLY GOOD reasons to have a FFP reticle

Please note that both the GB and Australian military who issue AI sniper rifles also issue S&B scopes as the standard optic. Claiming that they are only appropriate for target shooting is just ignorant.

best
-z
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 8:25:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 8:25:27 AM EST by CSGunWorkscom]
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:23:11 AM EST
We issued them on our C7CT and AR10T rilfes - my biggest beef is the elevation drum is opposite from "normal".

However we have gone to US Optic scopes for our .338LM guns and I beleive that any further scope purshases (for the C7CT or AR10's will be either NightForce or the USO's)

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:43:47 AM EST
S&B "two turn" knob:


S&B single turn metric knob:
[ link to LARGER image ]

USO SN-3 EREK knob (metric):
[ link to LARGER image ]
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:12:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 10:13:28 AM EST by KevinB]
Zak, thats very similar to the new CF scope - US Optics SN3 3.2-17 EREK TPAL green anodized finish
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:13:13 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:20:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Zak, thats very similar to the new CF scope - US Optics SN3 3.2-17 EREK TPAL green anodized finish


Kevin,

The one pictured is a 3.8-22x44mm SN3, with the ERGO objective instead of the TPAL, and all metric clicks. My other SN3 is a 3.2-17x44, EREK metric, but with the low-profile ERGO objective (vs. the old-school "large" one on the 22x) and the H25 reticle. Will get pics of that one up in a couple weeks.

What knob clicks and reticle with the CF go with? 30, 34, or 35mm tube?

(For those uninitiated to USO nomenclature-- TPAL is a side-focus/parallax knob you're used to on SB, Leupold and Nightforce scopes, while the ERGO itself objective rotates as pictured. The TPAL makes adjustment easier to reach, but introduces another lense into the system. EREK is USO's "big" one/two turn zero-stop elevation knob, and comes in 0.25 & 0.5 minute, and 0.1 mil clicks.)

best
Zak
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:36:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 10:40:13 AM EST by KevinB]
IIRC (I will confrim) it is 1/4 click - but not 100% sure. I'll get back to you.

I saw the pic and said hey that looks like - but after I posted I saw the mag ring went to 22 and a few others things looked different.

Sorry to hi-jack.

S&B pics




Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:40:12 AM EST
Has anybody more info on the Department of Defense S&B Short Dot buy?
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:44:04 AM EST
The guys who bought them don't get much airtime... think ODD folk.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 12:59:56 PM EST
If you read the thread on the Short Dot 1-4, you know I love mine.

Given the rhetorical question "If you could only have one AR, with an optic, what would it be?", mine would be an S&B Short Dot.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 3:23:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:06:03 PM EST
Zak - it is 1cm click and 34mm tube

CS - the 3-12 - no idea what submodel.

Link Posted: 5/17/2005 9:08:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By KevinB:
Zak - it is 1cm click and 34mm tube


Good info. The 34mm tube means that all those S&B rings can be used, or the AI S&B 34mm mount. You get almost all the travel of the 35mm tubes, but more ring choices.

-z
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 1:08:25 AM EST
Zak-Smith;

The next time you're gripped by the desire to launch a nasty, unprovoked attack on somebody else's opinion you might want to at least read what they wrote. I never claimed that S&B scopes in general exhibited any specific qualities. I merely related the expeiences I had with the two I owned.

While it may be true that S&B, in the last few years, has come up with useful amounts of windage and elevation adjustments that would be a very recent development. With the exception of their weirdo 34MM model, their tactical scopes with one-turn elevation have traditionally been limited to about 14 MOA of elevation from zero. That will give you a tad over 500 yards with a 168 SMK. Do you suppose that there might some reason why you never see a German win a long range shooting contest?

Measuring the technical eye relief from the eye to the lense is one issue. Now take a look at most S&B scopes. I don't know which models you are shooting but the vast majority have a shield which extends way back toward the eye. Add a Butler Creek occular cover and it quickly becomes apparent why S&B's are famous for nose alterations on all but the mildest recoiling calibers.

As it turns out, the guys at McMillan Rifle Company, who have access to just about any scope imaginable, independently reached exactly the same conclusions some time ago. Of course, WTF do they know?
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 6:31:06 AM EST

I certainly don't hold myself out as a S&B expert but, I have owned a couple of them. While the optical quality of the brand is superb, they do have IMHO some severe shortcomings as shooting devices.

Since you said "owned" and then "they do have some severe shortcomings" - then went on to list some shortcomings, using regular rules of grammar I concluded you were talking about S&B scopes in general with those problems not just those two particular scopes you had (which would have been indicated by "they had some shortcomings").

The next time you're gripped by the desire to launch a nasty, unprovoked attack on somebody else's opinion you might want to at least read what they wrote.
If you meant to say that SB has made some scope models that don't have the good features, then say so. Saying that there exists a SB scope which doesn't have some feature is like saying that Leupold doesn't make proper tactical scopes because a 3-9x VXII does not have knobs.

The majority of the PMII line has the features you decried the lack of.


With the exception of their weirdo 34MM model,

All of the variable power PMII (police-marksman) scopes have a 34mm tube. According to http://www.schmidtbender.com/scopes_policemarksman.shtml that's all but one of them.

If I've misunderstood you, I apologize. Perhaps you should work on more carefully articulating exactly what you mean to avoid confusion.
Link Posted: 5/18/2005 10:28:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:27:57 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/19/2005 10:08:13 AM EST by gilgamesh1]
I think that USO SN3 3-17 is a better option than SB 4-16 particularly with this year's SB price increases. I have an SN3 with 1/4 minute EREK knob and MOA reticle on order for my next 308 bolt. I think SB's 34 mm tube limits ring choices, USO's 30mm tube offer enough elevation and with the 1/4 minute EREK- all in one turn. I like the metric/metric option with SB, but prefer MOA reticles. However, for my AR, I am not sure between the 1.1-4 SB vs the SN4. Again cost is the issue. I wonder if there is much difference between the two.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:40:59 AM EST
I have a S&B 3 1/2 - 10 x 50. It's a heavy scope and the large bell necessitates mounting it high, but you can't complain about the quality.
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 9:53:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 12:19:55 PM EST
One of the SFOD-D guys gave a mini review of their S&B Short Dot's over on Lightfighter.

They bought a bunch more...
Link Posted: 5/19/2005 11:23:50 PM EST
I do not want to add anything else in this thread , all of you know very well my opinion abt the S&B stuff .
That said,
PP out
Link Posted: 5/20/2005 9:57:07 AM EST
Only complaint you'll get from me is the weight.

But then I've been telling the S&B guys about it for several years.

YMMV
Top Top