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Posted: 3/11/2006 12:13:23 PM EDT
Ok-those of you that hate old topics, clear out now. I've been away from the AR side of the board for awhile and I'm guessing this has been beat half to death in the last few months.

I've been saving for almost a year for an M4 clone, RRA most likely. I think it's a versatile and useful rifle, not to mention it is just sexy. I don't have an AR type rifle for my collection, and I know I need at least one varient. I have AKs and FALs, and the AR will fit in there nicely.

Problem is that now all these other rifles are coming out which sound like possible alternatives: the FN P2000, the Sig 556 (which I will not buy unless I can make it look more like a 551) and most importantly the SCAR, though that may awhile. Now I know you guys will say I should get them all, but I'm a college student and that just won't happen. I will likely be able to afford one this year, MAYBE another a year from now. And that is a big maybe.

So I need to decide which one to drop the cash on. I think I can ignore the P2000, and probably the Sig 556. The SCAR really screws with me though. I really get this feeling that it will do things the M4 can't, and may end up being a slightly better weapon. If I drop the money on the M4, the SCAR will be out of the question for some time. And I really hate to wait another year for a new rifle, especially with the nice weather coming.

Let me know what you guys think, and I apologize to the OT nazis that this will offend. At least I didn't bring up whether 5.56 is better than 5.45, or whether Colt is better than Bushie. I even left 1/9 vs. 1/7 twist out So thanks to those that decide to humor me.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:15:50 PM EDT
get 'em all?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:18:57 PM EDT
get the M4 now, and the SCAR later

besdies, by the time the SCAR comes out for a good price, hopefully you would have saved up enough $$$s
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:20:14 PM EDT

Personally, the only one of the new crop of rifles I'd get over an AR would be the P2000 - but that's just me. I don't really see the FN SCAR or SIG 556.

If you have the money save now, get the AR is my advice - and have fun shooting. If you take good care of it, you may be able to sell it down the line for a decent price anyway. It'll probably be a year or two before all of those fancy new rifles are readily available with accesories, and by that time the price will hopefully have come down to reasonable levels.



Just my thought. Oh, and if you're really interested in opinions, I'd get a midlength 16" over an M4 too
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:20:53 PM EDT
we're looking at next spring at the earliest for the SCAR right? Maybe I can save enough.....hmm. It will be tight.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:20:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 12:21:51 PM EDT by HeavyMetal]
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:22:20 PM EDT
The SCAR won't hit the civilian market for at least two years.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:24:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Personally, the only one of the new crop of rifles I'd get over an AR would be the P2000 - but that's just me. I don't really see the FN SCAR or SIG 556.

If you have the money save now, get the AR is my advice - and have fun shooting. If you take good care of it, you may be able to sell it down the line for a decent price anyway. It'll probably be a year or two before all of those fancy new rifles are readily available with accesories, and by that time the price will hopefully have come down to reasonable levels.



Just my thought. Oh, and if you're really interested in opinions, I'd get a midlength 16" over an M4 too



what makes you choose the P2000 over an AR? I really need to learn more about it. One thing that would be great about the P2000 is that it is at least different than anything else I own. Pretty unique. There is a scope designed for it specifically, the one in all the military photos. Looks to be some sort of low power one that mates right onto the rail. If that is available I will be even more interested, it looks really at home on the P2000.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:25:33 PM EDT
Get the M4, or better yet, get the RRA midlength.

Then you can shoot for a couple years while you wait for the others to become available.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:35:32 PM EDT
Get or build an A1 clone. It'll never go out of "style."
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 12:35:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By NVGdude:
Get the M4, or better yet, get the RRA midlength.

Then you can shoot for a couple years while you wait for the others to become available.



I like the midlengths, too. Not sure if I would take one over an M4 though....
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:15:54 PM EDT
I just took a look at the Smith & Wesson MP Series AR-15s and I have to admit, the fit and finish were quite good. This aside, they were $75-$100 more than a Bushmaster, so what's the point?!

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:18:13 PM EDT
shit You only live once, buy one!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 1:39:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Personally, the only one of the new crop of rifles I'd get over an AR would be the P2000 - but that's just me. I don't really see the FN SCAR or SIG 556.

If you have the money save now, get the AR is my advice - and have fun shooting. If you take good care of it, you may be able to sell it down the line for a decent price anyway. It'll probably be a year or two before all of those fancy new rifles are readily available with accesories, and by that time the price will hopefully have come down to reasonable levels.



Just my thought. Oh, and if you're really interested in opinions, I'd get a midlength 16" over an M4 too



what makes you choose the P2000 over an AR? I really need to learn more about it. One thing that would be great about the P2000 is that it is at least different than anything else I own. Pretty unique. There is a scope designed for it specifically, the one in all the military photos. Looks to be some sort of low power one that mates right onto the rail. If that is available I will be even more interested, it looks really at home on the P2000.




I guess part of my answer was predicated on owning plenty of AR's already - but I would still get another AR before I got a SIG or a SCAR.

But I have been eagerly awaiting the P2000, partly because I really, really like bullpup designs, and find them to be inherently superior (in principle) - the P2000 in particular excites me because it is built by a company with lots of military arms experience, it is built after the "first generation" of military bullpups (like the brit SA-80 and the franch FAMAS and the austrian AUG) - and so I have hopes that it will be a spectacular firearms. I especially like that it resolves the ambidextrous issue that a lot of people critisize bullpups for.

The ONLY thing I am slightly concerned about are (so far unsubstantiated) rumors that the ejection port can perhaps jam under full-auto fire?? Since none of them will be full-auto anyway (other than dealer samples) I'm not to worried about that.

Did I mention I really like bullpups?


However, I'd still suggest that you get the AR now - and have lots of fun shooting and training with it. By the time rifles like the P2000 or the SCAR are readily on the market and common enough to be affordable, you may have saved enough money, have graduated and be making money, or, you might just sell you AR and lose a few hundred bucks (think of it as a rental for the year or two you played with it ).

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:02:49 PM EDT
+1 on M4 good carbine

OLD SCHOOL
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:09:55 PM EDT
Sounds to me that you're over thinking this. I doubt you'll be sorry if you go ahead and buy the RRA M4gery.

Just do it!
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:24:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:29:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 2:29:53 PM EDT by Sniper_Wolfe]
Get the AR now while you can afford it. The SCAR will likely cost an ungodly amount of money, and if my memory serves me right, you could build (or buy cheaply) about 3 ARs for what the P2000 goes for.

ETA: I seemed to remember that P2000s were quoted right around $2k - that's the figure I estimated from. Is that correct?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:34:08 PM EDT
What is not to want about one of these (even if it is in semi)?

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 2:51:50 PM EDT
DONT!!!
get a Mid-length!!

chuck
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:21:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eaglecp:
DONT!!!
get a Mid-length!!

chuck



okay, it is at moments like this that I realize that I am still a noob in some ways, even after years of owning guns. I have no clue why people like the midlengths better, except for looks maybe. Is there a difference in functionality? What am I missing?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:33:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:43:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By eaglecp:
DONT!!!
get a Mid-length!!

chuck



okay, it is at moments like this that I realize that I am still a noob in some ways, even after years of owning guns. I have no clue why people like the midlengths better, except for looks maybe. Is there a difference in functionality? What am I missing?



Smoother operation, a functional bayonet lug and greater parts longevity due to the smoother operation to boil it down to one sentence.



I'm guessing this has something to do with the differences in the gas system?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:44:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By npd233:
The SCAR won't hit the civilian market for at least two years.

And that's conservative, I think it was shotgun news that was saying 2-3 years and "heafty" price tag... sounds like more than 2000 dollars just to get started... Scar will be cool, but stick with the M4 my friend..
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 3:55:17 PM EDT

Unless one of your AKs covers it , you Really Do need something in 5.56

Doesn't HAVE to be an AR though
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:01:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:01:50 PM EDT
Go see the web site at www.ironridgeguns.com
they have some bad ass M-4s for ya.Am sure they can help out with a purchase.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:03:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
Unless one of your AKs covers it , you Really Do need something in 5.56

Doesn't HAVE to be an AR though



yeah, thats how I see it. No gun collection can be complete without at least one weapon chambered in 5.56. I just bought an Arsenal SLR-105 A1 (AK-74 clone) in 5.45, so part of me feels like grabbing a 5.56 this spring is almost a bit redundant. They really do feel similar to shoot, and I like to mix it up some. But in the end I'm just lying to myself, I know I will end up with multiple guns in 5.56, 5.45, 7.62 NATO, etc.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:26:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 4:28:56 PM EDT by metroplex]
If you're waiting for the FN P2000, expect to wait an eternity because they're coming out with a FS2000. I'm not sure what the P2000 is or looks like

The FS2000 is a $2200 5.56 bullpup rifle, weighs more than a standard 16" AR-15/M4 carbine, has a short stroke piston, and has limited modularity but does come with BUIS and a 1913 rail on top. It uses standard M16/AR mags!

Overall it's not that bad of a rifle if it cost $1000 less. For $2200 you can buy about 3 M4s or 2 M4s with money to spare for mods/accessories/ammo.

There's the Robinson XCR, which was a SCAR competitor. The FN ARM/SCAR won't hit civvy market for AWHILE and the FS2000 appears to be somewhat delayed. FN is busy churning out PS90s let alone FS2000s and SCARs/ARMs.

If you want a decent AR-15, look at the S&W MP15 Tactical or Standard. It's a decent buy.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:31:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
If you're waiting for the FN P2000, expect to wait an eternity because they're coming out with a FS2000. I'm not sure what the P2000 is or looks like

The FS2000 is a $2200 5.56 bullpup rifle, weighs more than a standard 16" AR-15/M4 carbine, has a short stroke piston, and has limited modularity but does come with BUIS and a 1913 rail on top. It uses standard M16/AR mags!

Overall it's not that bad of a rifle if it cost $1000 less. For $2200 you can buy about 3 M4s or 2 M4s with money to spare for mods/accessories/ammo.

There's the Robinson XCR, which was a SCAR competitor. The FN ARM/SCAR won't hit civvy market for AWHILE and the FS2000 appears to be somewhat delayed. FN is busy churning out PS90s let alone FS2000s and SCARs/ARMs.

If you want a decent AR-15, look at the S&W MP15 Tactical or Standard. It's a decent buy.



umm, so the FN FS2000 is out if that is the price. Way too steep, but that is just my opinion.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 4:48:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By eaglecp:
DONT!!!
get a Mid-length!!

chuck



okay, it is at moments like this that I realize that I am still a noob in some ways, even after years of owning guns. I have no clue why people like the midlengths better, except for looks maybe. Is there a difference in functionality? What am I missing?



Smoother operation, a functional bayonet lug and greater parts longevity due to the smoother operation to boil it down to one sentence.



I'm guessing this has something to do with the differences in the gas system?




Yes.



is it possible to put a 14.5" barrel into a middy without totally jacking up the gas system? Would you still have the smoother operation that the normal midlengths offer?
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:37:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 5:44:16 PM EDT
The cheapest pre-order price for the FS2000 is $1800. I suspect they will start off at $2200 internet price, possibly $2500 street price (if you find them at a gunshow). They were *supposed* to start shipping in March but I haven't heard anything. CMMG already has a demo unit so the actual shipping units shouldn't be far behind.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 6:43:01 PM EDT
Just a few things to think about. If your ready to buy now then forget the Scar, P2000 and the Sig I'm sure there going to be cool and all that but it's going to be awhile before you can get one at a good price. Next 5.7 ammo isn't really that cheap and 5.56 is. lets not forget that you can't go to wal-mart and buy 5.7 ammo hell I live in a decent sized town and can't buy it localy. So with that being said lets talk about saveing money on your M4 if you go that route. Build your own it's so easy my little sister can do it. You can build a M4ergy with a striped lower and a parts kit for around $650 and save the rest of your money for optics, sights etc or start saveing for your next rifle. As far as tools go it's nice to have all the specialty stuff but you don't need it I put one together not long ago with some channel lock pliers electric tape( to protect reciver) small punch a small hammer and a razor blade.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 7:11:40 PM EDT
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 7:30:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 223semiauto:
shit You only live once, buy one!



+1
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:08:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mc556:
Just a few things to think about. If your ready to buy now then forget the Scar, P2000 and the Sig I'm sure there going to be cool and all that but it's going to be awhile before you can get one at a good price. Next 5.7 ammo isn't really that cheap and 5.56 is. lets not forget that you can't go to wal-mart and buy 5.7 ammo hell I live in a decent sized town and can't buy it localy. So with that being said lets talk about saveing money on your M4 if you go that route. Build your own it's so easy my little sister can do it. You can build a M4ergy with a striped lower and a parts kit for around $650 and save the rest of your money for optics, sights etc or start saveing for your next rifle. As far as tools go it's nice to have all the specialty stuff but you don't need it I put one together not long ago with some channel lock pliers electric tape( to protect reciver) small punch a small hammer and a razor blade.



You're probably confusing the gun he's talking about with the civilian P90. The gun in question is also a 5.56mm rifle.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:21:34 PM EDT
Sell AKs and FALs, buy 16" M4-type and an AAC M4-2000 suppressor.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:22:02 PM EDT
youre like me a college stuent. save $$$$ get an ar.

cheap ammo and mags compared to others.

scar will be available when you graduate, then you'll have the money to get the scar
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:25:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 8:26:01 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.




Not trying to attack you, but in my opinion the popular M4-look-alikes kind of ARE the "latest rage" - of the civie AR-15 trying to LOOK like a real M4, with weird half-ass measures like a pinned/welded flash supressor, and goofy stuff like that.

If he wanted a combat-proven weapon, he'd be looking at an NFA firearm - or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.

Link Posted: 3/11/2006 8:31:21 PM EDT
Look at the MGI QCB upper and modular lower. Best of all possible worlds. Stick a 16" 5.56 barrel and bolt in it, VOILA', an M4gery. Or a 18" SPR barrel. Or a 24" Varmint barrel. Now stick in a 458 SOCOM barrel and bolt, or 6.5 Grendal barrel, or 6.8 barrel.

Now slap the AK magwell into your lower, 7.62x39 barrel and bolt into the upper. Or the 308 magwell, barrel and bolt, now you have a AR-10 clone. Now slap in any of the soon to be released modules for .45, or 9MM, or .22 using 10/22 mags, or.....a .223 belt feed module! Who needs a SHRIKE!

Search for the MGI stuff and talk to TWL. Their system is mind boggling. I have one now, about to get my second.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:10:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.




Not trying to attack you, but in my opinion the popular M4-look-alikes kind of ARE the "latest rage" - of the civie AR-15 trying to LOOK like a real M4, with weird half-ass measures like a pinned/welded flash supressor, and goofy stuff like that.

If he wanted a combat-proven weapon, he'd be looking at an NFA firearm - or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.




The civie AR-15 is still the same rifle as the military version. It's still "combat proven" versus something new, like the M96, H&K SL8/G36, etc... Those have been abandoned, and the AR remains.

I'd get an M4 or Midlength if you want an AR-15 (which I would recommend!) You should be able to get a good rifle for under $800.

By the time you have money saved for another, the other rifles MIGHT be available.

If I were you I'd be calling CMMG Monday morning ordering an M4 upper ($499), and get a Superior lower ordered in for $215. After paying $20 for a transfer fee, you have yourself a high quality AR-15 for $735. Ordering online saves the tax, ordering separately saves the 10% excise tax on complete firearms.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:16:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.




Not trying to attack you, but in my opinion the popular M4-look-alikes kind of ARE the "latest rage" - of the civie AR-15 trying to LOOK like a real M4, with weird half-ass measures like a pinned/welded flash supressor, and goofy stuff like that.

If he wanted a combat-proven weapon, he'd be looking at an NFA firearm - or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.




The civie AR-15 is still the same rifle as the military version. It's still "combat proven" versus something new, like the M96, H&K SL8/G36, etc... Those have been abandoned, and the AR remains.



Right - that's what I was trying to say. Any version of the AR-15 is essentially a combat-proven weapon, regardless of midlength, 14.5, 20", SPR, etc. I was just ragging a little on the M4-lookalike trend.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:31:56 PM EDT
Man if you hang out here to long you start to think that the only ar in the world is Colt,Mid-length,1/7 twist,16" bbl, chrome lined, flat top with EOTech, Knights rails, LMT SOPMOD Buttstock.
I am a rebel cause I like Bushmaster, Car-length,1/9 twist(would get 1/7 if I could) 14.5" bbl, A2 sights, CAR hand guards, Car-15 four position stock, I do how ever agree with the chrome lined.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:46:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/11/2006 9:47:31 PM EDT by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By John44:
Man if you hang out here to long you start to think that the only ar in the world is Colt,Mid-length,1/7 twist,16" bbl, chrome lined, flat top with EOTech, Knights rails, LMT SOPMOD Buttstock.



Does Colt make a mid-length? I've never seen one.

If you have one, it might BE the only one in the world.



I am a rebel cause I like Bushmaster, Car-length,1/9 twist(would get 1/7 if I could) 14.5" bbl, A2 sights, CAR hand guards, Car-15 four position stock, I do how ever agree with the chrome lined.



I think you'll find that more people own Bushmasters here than own Colt.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 9:56:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mc556:
Just a few things to think about. If your ready to buy now then forget the Scar, P2000 and the Sig I'm sure there going to be cool and all that but it's going to be awhile before you can get one at a good price. Next 5.7 ammo isn't really that cheap and 5.56 is. lets not forget that you can't go to wal-mart and buy 5.7 ammo hell I live in a decent sized town and can't buy it localy. So with that being said lets talk about saveing money on your M4 if you go that route. Build your own it's so easy my little sister can do it. You can build a M4ergy with a striped lower and a parts kit for around $650 and save the rest of your money for optics, sights etc or start saveing for your next rifle. As far as tools go it's nice to have all the specialty stuff but you don't need it I put one together not long ago with some channel lock pliers electric tape( to protect reciver) small punch a small hammer and a razor blade.



I might consider trying to put an AR together, despite being not so competent with tools. How much would it cost me to pick up the proper tools? I might consider going this route, though since it is my first AR part of me thinks I should just get a factory build.
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:06:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.




Not trying to attack you, but in my opinion the popular M4-look-alikes kind of ARE the "latest rage" - of the civie AR-15 trying to LOOK like a real M4, with weird half-ass measures like a pinned/welded flash supressor, and goofy stuff like that.

If he wanted a combat-proven weapon, he'd be looking at an NFA firearm - or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.




The civie AR-15 is still the same rifle as the military version. It's still "combat proven" versus something new, like the M96, H&K SL8/G36, etc... Those have been abandoned, and the AR remains.



Right - that's what I was trying to say. Any version of the AR-15 is essentially a combat-proven weapon, regardless of midlength, 14.5, 20", SPR, etc. I was just ragging a little on the M4-lookalike trend.



As to being combat proven, have midlengths been used by the military? I feel like a tool about my lack of knowledge of midlengths......don't know how I can know about M4geries, and not know any of this
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 10:11:47 PM EDT
You can build your lower for less than you can buy one, plus you can build it like you want the first time. Then find an upper you like and slap the bad boy on and you're ready to go. I've sold all the complete AR/M4's I've bought, but I still have the ones I've built. I just put a lower together today.


TS
Link Posted: 3/11/2006 11:37:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mco119:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By jwise:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.




Not trying to attack you, but in my opinion the popular M4-look-alikes kind of ARE the "latest rage" - of the civie AR-15 trying to LOOK like a real M4, with weird half-ass measures like a pinned/welded flash supressor, and goofy stuff like that.

If he wanted a combat-proven weapon, he'd be looking at an NFA firearm - or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.




The civie AR-15 is still the same rifle as the military version. It's still "combat proven" versus something new, like the M96, H&K SL8/G36, etc... Those have been abandoned, and the AR remains.



Right - that's what I was trying to say. Any version of the AR-15 is essentially a combat-proven weapon, regardless of midlength, 14.5, 20", SPR, etc. I was just ragging a little on the M4-lookalike trend.



As to being combat proven, have midlengths been used by the military? I feel like a tool about my lack of knowledge of midlengths......don't know how I can know about M4geries, and not know any of this



No, a midlength has never been deployed that I know about. However, it is a compromise between the rifle length and carbine length, and doesn't change anything significantly. I would consider it to be easier on the components than the harsher carbine gas system, therefore more reliable.

I agree about the benefits of the middy. It has a longer sight radius. It is less harsh on the components. It can accept standard bayonets (unlike the carbine with 16" barrel.) Looks more proportional with the 16" barrel (with an A1 stock, it looks like a shrunk A2!) And there are lots of folks making forearms in midlength now!

I wanted a couple clones of US service rifles, so I have an M16A2 clone, and an M4 clone (except with 16" barrel.) My other two were bought before midlengths were really available. Otherwise, I'd have one!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 12:12:31 AM EDT
You need a kick in the ass. Build your first rifle. It is cheaper, and you learn so much about the things.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 6:56:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By wes15a2:
Ask yourself this:
Do I want a combat-proven weapon or
the latest rage? Just my $.02.



- or alternatively maybe a Brown Bess musket.




LOL
I think that maybe I'll stick with breech-loaders.
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