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Posted: 6/30/2005 7:52:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/20/2005 11:11:05 AM EDT by Corey]
I like it. A lot.





Photos of the gas tube as it seems really solid.





This project was originally commented on in this thread.

I received the bbl back from MGI with the taper (not straight) pins drilled out with what was probably a drill press. There was a little bit of scuffing on the front sight assembly from the procedure, but after I cried a bit (which apparently is the current accepted norm here on AR15.com when your military rifle gets scratched) I thought "Eh, screw it, this is going to be my kick around carbine so don't worry about it." I dried my tears and put away the can of flat black Krylon. This carbine starts life with a battle dress patina.

MGI sent back two pair of taper pins. I end up using some new Bushmaster taper pins as they were parked (the MGI ones were in the white) and they had the appropriately tight fit (i.e., a little of the pin sticking out each side).

The LaRue (my second LaRue build) went together very smoothly. I learned that when you plug the rail into the bbl nut, there is a little bit of play in there that you can adjust when you tighten the handguard ring. This allows for a little bit of final "fine tuning" of the alignment. The anti-rotation plate then locks everything in place. Again, for those who weren't listening the first thousand or so times, the LaRue rail system is The Shit.

The front sight assembly on the Sabre barrel is canted a bit to the left (when looking through the sights). It seems to be canted a bit more than my old Bushmaster Superlight barrel, but seems to be well within the range of my rear sight traverse. (Both my Colt barrels were perfectly square.) Either way, I mention it only because I observed it. I don't believe I will be able to shoot this barrel (or any, for that matter) well enough to have the cant make an objective difference on the target. I'll get out shooting this thing (doubtful this weekend, though I'll try) and post back. If I don't make it out this weekend my next chance at hitting the range is probably mid-July. (Don't worry, once I get a HUGE project sorted out I'll be shooting more frequently starting maybe this fall.)

I think that 16" barrels are probably the perfect length for all around use. And the midlength barrel is perfect for a 16" format. The 9.0 LaRue provides plenty of space for lights, bipods, vertical grips, etc. yet you still retain a fixed front sight assembly and bayonet lug. For a dot equipped carbine, the 9.0 is probably an ideal choice. Excellent balance and rail/handguard length.

For a bit more versatility, you can always use a LaRue 12.0 and go for the Recon variation.



Corey

EDITED for typo.
Link Posted: 6/30/2005 8:01:19 PM EDT
Kick ass
Link Posted: 6/30/2005 8:05:52 PM EDT
You need a nice hardwood floor for weapons that nice.
Link Posted: 6/30/2005 8:32:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/30/2005 8:35:07 PM EDT by Corey]

Originally Posted By Kisara:
You need a nice hardwood floor for weapons that nice.



Shit, we just refinished our hardwood floors. But they were upstairs at the time. And I suck at bringing out accurate color in photos.

Ya'll get cheap, quick and dirty pics.

Sorry, but it's where my life is at. I'll pull off more artsy-farsty stuff in 2006.

Corey

EDITED to add: PS I am glad that you all like them. I've been through various cycles trying to find the "perfect" setups. I think I'm there. Someday I'm going to post an evolution of my AR15's topic showing pics and descriptions of all prior setups. I've always had a reason for changing things. I can't see a reason for changing anything I have on this one (although the jury is still out on the tape switch).
Link Posted: 6/30/2005 8:41:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kisara:
You need a nice hardwood floor for weapons that nice.



And a 55" plasma TV.
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 2:48:52 AM EDT
Looks great!
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 3:08:20 AM EDT
Nice very nice. Keep up the great work
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 3:18:48 AM EDT
Wow, that does look great!
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 3:53:55 AM EDT
nice!
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:22:13 AM EDT
very nice set up, I am really liking middy's
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 10:14:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 2:26:23 PM EDT
Hardwood floor, they always forget the hardwood floors
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 2:46:59 PM EDT
looks good... keep us posted on how she shoots!
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 7:22:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Hardwood floor, they always forget the hardwood floors
home.earthlink.net/~whitman/SAW.JPG



Even if mine are refinished, it's 50 years old and is showing its seams. Which reminds me. I'm not going to put hardwood floors in our next house. Laminate flooring will never look or feel as good as real hardwood. But with dogs, cats, kids, and an active family, I'm not sure I can deal with the wear and tear and upkeep of real hardwood. Maybe it's the 50 year old wood, but we literally had to move out for 3-4 days to get our floors refinished and a month later I'm starting to see a few scratches.

On the plus side, I managed to get to the range today. That Sabre barrel shoots. I delicately broke it in (one boresnake pass) and it was giving me a few approximately half dollar (1"?) sized groups at 50 yards with the M2 and Q3131A. With my Colt MT631 (with the LaRue 12.0) and Leupold scope I was shooting at bullet holes at 50 yards with the same ammo resulting in dime sized one hole groups. All groups were in 5 shot strings. (If I could only be as consistent at 100+ yards....)

With the talk of NSR drills and rifle function when hot, just before I left I ripped off 50 rounds as fast as I could with the Sabre barrel. It functioned perfectly. I didn't even clean the slight bits of heavy grease (cosmoline?) from in the locking lug area. Just a bit of CLP on the new CMT bolt, one pass with a boresnake, and off we went.

Even the Colt fuctioned perfectly. I was worried about my positioning of the LaRue gas block and the gas port in the barrel. Looks like I found it.

And quite frankly, I can't really say I noticed any reduction in recoil from the carbine to midlength sytem. It did seem to be a little smoother than a typical 16" gas system with collapsable stock. I'd almost compare it to a 16" gas system with full A1/A2 stock and buffer tube (which was what I had on the Colt today).

Incidentally, my Aimpoint only really needed to be adjusted for elevation (with a slight L/R tweak). It was remarkably close to the zero on my old Bushmaster barrel. I use to be able to swap my Aimpoint back and forth between the Bushmaster and Colt with retaining approximately the same BZO. I didn't try it today with the Sabre and Colt, but I think it will still be very close.

In my rush to get to the range and back home (via the grocery store), I failed to properly secure my rifle case and dropped my Colt from about 3' onto the concrete shooting bench slab. It only resulted in a ding on the side of my scope (which is apparently what the rifle landed on). I'll re-check zero next time, but I'm confident that it is still good to go. No big deal. (Although my life does need to slow down at some point....) I'm pretty sure about the levels of abuse this family of rifles can take, and this is pretty low on the scale.

(If my life seems like utter chaos right now, just wait until you see gun pics taken on my new deck in about 4-6 months and you'll know what all the chaos was about. In the meantime I'm holding it together the best I can and am at least maintaining my sense of humor about it!)

Corey
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 7:39:24 PM EDT
I just assembled mine as well using a Sabre barrel, CMT upper and LaRue 9.0 . It's wearing a 2.5x20 Leupold in the LaRue SPR mount at the moment but that may change if it's accurate enough to wear my 3.5-10. My only complaint is that the FSB on the Sabre barrel is slightly canted. That's not a big deal since I'll replace it with a flip up of some sort. The FSB pins were not tapered. I measured them after I knocked them out. It was easy to tell which direction they were installed from because they weren't completely seated. The dealer that I got the barrel through said they had sent several Sabre complete uppers back for badly canted FSBs after customers complained.

Hunt101 is down. When it comes back up I'll post a pic.

Link Posted: 7/1/2005 7:47:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2005 7:49:03 PM EDT by Corey]

Originally Posted By 0123456789:
I just assembled mine as well using a Sabre barrel, CMT upper and LaRue 9.0 . It's wearing a 2.5x20 Leupold in the LaRue SPR mount at the moment but that may change if it's accurate enough to wear my 3.5-10. My only complaint is that the FSB on the Sabre barrel is slightly canted. That's not a big deal since I'll replace it with a flip up of some sort. The FSB pins were not tapered. I measured them after I knocked them out. It was easy to tell which direction they were installed from because they weren't completely seated. The dealer that I got the barrel through said they had sent several Sabre complete uppers back for badly canted FSBs after customers complained.

Hunt101 is down. When it comes back up I'll post a pic.




Say again?

What are the specifics (1/9, etc.) of this barrel, who did you get it through and when?

Corey

EDITED to add at what point does the FSA cant become an issue? Am I correct in presuming that if the cant sets up a cross-over zero that windage will be seriously off at distance?
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 7:53:27 PM EDT
Aw, spill the beans Corey!
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:03:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/1/2005 8:04:58 PM EDT by 0123456789]
The barrel is a chrome lined 1x9 midlength. I just got the barrel Saturday. It had been on order from Sabre for about 6 weeks. The FSB cant if severe enough will not allow you to dial enough windage in the rear sight to zero.

I got the barrel from a dealer on this board.
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:27:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Duffy:
Aw, spill the beans Corey!



Check your email.


Originally Posted By 0123456789:
The barrel is a chrome lined 1x9 midlength. I just got the barrel Saturday. It had been on order from Sabre for about 6 weeks. The FSB cant if severe enough will not allow you to dial enough windage in the rear sight to zero.

I got the barrel from a dealer on this board.



Sheet! That's not good. Canted left or right?

(My Colts were always dead nuts center.)

Corey
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:45:15 PM EDT
Shot it yet?
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:51:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Shot it yet?



Don't feel like reading tonight, do you Lump?



Corey

(PS See above. I busted my ass to get you guys a range report.)
Link Posted: 7/1/2005 8:52:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:
Don't feel like reading tonight, do you Lump?





Tired. Tiny screen. My bad lol.
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 2:25:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Corey:
Don't feel like reading tonight, do you Lump?





Tired. Tiny screen. My bad lol.



Been there myself (tired). In fact I'm there right now and I just woke up.



Corey
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 12:23:24 PM EDT
Cool Deal Corey. I know you had some issues with this build. I'm glad it worked out for you! I like it better with the 12.0 LaRue recon\recce mode

What ended up being the issue with you PC?


Originally Posted By Corey:
And quite frankly, I can't really say I noticed any reduction in recoil from the carbine to midlength sytem. It did seem to be a little smoother than a typical 16" gas system with collapsable stock. I'd almost compare it to a 16" gas system with full A1/A2 stock and buffer tube (which was what I had on the Colt today).



Yeah, I've mentioned before the difference is kinda subtle. Put that upper on your Colt A2 lower and try it that way and it's even smoother. What buffer are you using? An "H2" or 9mm buffer might be a nice upgrade if you are wanting to lower the recoil.

Thanks for the pics!
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 1:58:05 PM EDT
I shot my Sabre barreled midlength today. I went ahead and installed the Lupy 3.5-10 before I took it out. Managed five shot groups of about 4 inches at 200 yards with 55 grain Federal American Eagle. That's about all that ammo is capable of. Ran about 125 rounds through it with no problems. I'm running an A1 stock with an M16 carrier. I've heard chrome lined barrels start to shoot better after about 300 rounds through them and the chrome polishes out a bit.

The FSB is only slightly canted to the left. I'm going to replace it with a PRI anyway.

I guess hunt101.com is dead. Going to have to find a new place to host pics.
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 6:55:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cgv69:
Cool Deal Corey. I know you had some issues with this build. I'm glad it worked out for you! I like it better with the 12.0 LaRue recon\recce mode

What ended up being the issue with you PC?



Would you believe that some of the posters in the AR15.com thread were right? It just seemed to need the latent electricity drained from the system. After they pulled some plugs, etc. it fired right up. Apparently if you hold down the "on" button it it drains the power and you can then restart it.

But after getting it back, my monitor (high quality 19") died. My wife picked up an extra from her office that we now are using. It's a 19" flat screen but the quality is no where near as good as my old 50 pound standard 19" monitor.

Oh well. I didn't know monitors went like that. But stuff like this has been the story of my life lately!



Originally Posted By Corey:
And quite frankly, I can't really say I noticed any reduction in recoil from the carbine to midlength sytem. It did seem to be a little smoother than a typical 16" gas system with collapsable stock. I'd almost compare it to a 16" gas system with full A1/A2 stock and buffer tube (which was what I had on the Colt today).



Yeah, I've mentioned before the difference is kinda subtle. Put that upper on your Colt A2 lower and try it that way and it's even smoother. What buffer are you using? An "H2" or 9mm buffer might be a nice upgrade if you are wanting to lower the recoil.

Thanks for the pics!



I'm using a VLTOR stock, LMT 6 position tube, and LMT "H" buffer. I'm not too concerned about the recoil. I mentioned it only for the sake of comparison.

Incidentally, my rifle as decked out in the first two pics weighs 10.0 pounds on my bathroom scale with a full mag. Ditch the M2 and light and it's a nice handy carbine. Not as lightweight as my R6530 (5.5 pounds unloaded), but light nonetheless.

The 9.0 midlength is going to be my beater carbine. With the way things have been going for me lately, it could be in for quite a ride!

Corey
Link Posted: 7/2/2005 8:36:01 PM EDT
One last thing. My rear sight is 16 clicks left of center to compensate for the canted front sight assembly.

Is that something I need to worry about? No, this isn't a match rifle. But I'd like to be able to shoot at distance in the future.

Thanks,

Corey
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:36:48 PM EDT
When I pull mine apart again to replace the FSB I'm going to see what's up.

I'll try to figure out what is causing the cant. If the fsb holes were drilled at an angle causing the cant then is the fsb covering part of the gas port? Or are the gas port and fsb not inline with the locator pin?

I have yet to be overly impressed with Sabre.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 1:37:42 PM EDT
Canted sights

That sucks.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 2:55:32 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 6:57:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2005 6:58:09 PM EDT by Corey]
Both Colts that I have zeroed perfectly dead center.

So, I ask again. Is 16 clicks too much?

Other than this potential issue, this barrel is outstanding.

Corey

EDITED to fix typo.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:36:38 PM EDT
You know what? I was just obsessing about how it looked like the Troy Ind. front sight appeared canted in relation to the base and LaRue 12.0 on my other project rifle (the Colt).

Well, after using a T square and measuring everything, I realized that the LaRue 12.0 was straight, the Troy front sight was perfectly straight, but the rear Troy BUIS was what was throwing everything off.

Was the rear Troy the culprit? ....

Actually, I believe (based on my crude measurements and observations) that the Colt upper receiver rails vary in straightness on the horizontal plane.

So I'm going not going to call this a Sabre problem or contact them until I make sure that it's not the Bushmaster upper. Let me lay a square it tomorrow and see what the problem might be. (Although the fact that the Aimpoint M2 is also off from the front sight would point in the front sight direction.)

We'll see, but let me figure out what's going on before we get too excited.

Corey
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 7:48:00 PM EDT
NO WAY!

Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:02:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
NO WAY!




No way what?

No way a Colt's upper is off?

Corey
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:03:10 PM EDT
upper receiver rails could be slightly out of spec. Myself and others have had this problem with ARMS sights and BM receivers. 3rdtk schooled me on the reasons.

If you really wanrt to know try a search in the optics forum-ARMS 40L excessive windage, sometime within the last year.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:05:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:
No way a Colt's upper is off?

Corey





Im just gonna shut my mouth before I called a Colt-hater again...
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:10:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Corey:
No way a Colt's upper is off?

Corey





Im just gonna shut my mouth before I called a Colt-hater again...



Oh, you were being sarcastic.

You just gotta tell me when you're being sarcastic. And I'll tell you when I'm being too serious.



Corey

PS The Colt upper did appear to be the problem. The Sabre barrel is plugged into a Bushie upper that I don't have access to until approximately 0730 hours. It's in a very organic type of secure room.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:15:24 PM EDT
The Corey-Cave?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 8:37:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By Corey:
No way a Colt's upper is off?

Corey





Im just gonna shut my mouth before I called a Colt-hater again...



Link Posted: 7/4/2005 10:27:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
The Corey-Cave?



Yeah, something like that! LOL

Corey

PS I'll try to look at the BM upper sometime today.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 8:54:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2005 8:55:19 AM EDT by Corey]
After playing around with the front sight base cant issue a bit, I fired an email off to Grant Morgan ("oem" is his AR15.com screen name), the Commercial Products Manager at Sabre. I received a reply back within 45 minutes.

First let me start off by saying that if anyone claims to be a dissatisfied customer of Sabre then the problem must lie with themselves. Grant offered to help me out and any way you cut it he was going to make me a satisfied customer and do it ASAP. (I wasn't dissatisfied, BTW, I just emailed him with a question.) There should be no question as to the customer service provided by Sabre (and MGI, who helped me out already).

Grant said that they make sure their Sabre built uppers are straight by lasering them before they leave the plant. They also laser their barrels, so the front sight cant does not appear to be caused by a misaligned front sight assembly (which is a very good thing). When they build their uppers that have a jig that holds the barrel straight until the barrel nut is tightened. Sometimes there will be a bit of play in the notch and index pin due to normal tolerances. Due to this the barrel is allowed to rotate with the barrel nut, causing the cant.

I will have a go at retorquing my barrel nut to see if this might be the issue and determining whether I can correct it myself. I suspect I should be able to.

But the bottom line here is that both companies involved here, MGI and Sabre, have been outstanding to deal with. I just feel terrible that they are having to spend time with me over issues that I may be creating (which is why I went to Grant, versus bugging Tom again...).

It might be a few days before I can get back to it, but I'll post an update when I do.

Corey

EDITED for typo.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 9:38:34 AM EDT
Thanks for the update Corey. It sounds like the Sabre FSBs should be aligned, from your contact with Grant. This is good to hear as I would like to use the FSB for my build. The 1/7 barrels from TalonArms should be ready in @10 days.
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 10:06:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By sovereign:
Thanks for the update Corey. It sounds like the Sabre FSBs should be aligned, from your contact with Grant. This is good to hear as I would like to use the FSB for my build. The 1/7 barrels from TalonArms should be ready in @10 days.



Argh! If I have to send my barrel back to Sabre, that means you guys will have your 1/7's up and running just about when I'm done with my 1/9....

(I should've waited on the 1/7's....)

Corey
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 10:14:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2005 10:14:59 AM EDT by Yojimbo]

Originally Posted By Corey:

(I should've waited on the 1/7's....)

Corey



I tooooold you so....

10 days!!!
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 11:14:00 AM EDT
If Sabre FSBs are laser aligned why did my dealer have to send several complete uppers back?
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 11:33:12 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 11:40:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Corey, It is well known that (at least I thought it was) that upper receivers are generally NOT square and true (this can be said of all of them). Generally if a receiver is a little bit off it isn't a big deal, but when they are WAY off you have issues (like 16 clicks to the left or right).


C4



Yeah, that's what I understand. (Isn't Mr. LaRue suppose to be fixing this?)

I'm hoping that it's just a result of play in the notch/index pin. It sure doesn't look like it's the upper receiver in this case. We'll see. At the very least the company stands behind it and will make it right.

Corey
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 11:46:11 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/5/2005 12:46:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

When Mr. LaRue makes his CNC upper receivers we will no longer have any issues (as far as non-square rails).

C4





A little bird told me LaRue is also tooling up to make lowers...
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 8:07:33 AM EDT
I just got my upper back from Sabre. Grant said that he was able to get my other barrel to line up correctly with their double vice, but preferred to swap it out due to the taper pins issue (apparently they're now doing their taper pins differently to make them easier to take out for home builds).

I sent him my complete upper to see if he could resolve the alignment issue, so when I got it back it was professionally assembled with a new barrel (and obviously front sight assembly). It was very well packed in a next day air tube (I told you no rush and not to spend the money on that Grant!) and the upper was heat sealed in a heavy plastic bag. The barrel, front sight assembly, and LaRue 9.0 are all lined up straight as an arrow.

The taper pins appear much different than the ones on the original barrel I received. These look like every other taper pin that I've ever seen and I wouldn't think they'd give you trouble knocking them out (but I'm not messing with mine). The original ones looked like they'd be tough to get out, were ground down on the sides and were difficult to even tell if they were tapered versus straight. So the new ones are probably going to be a lot easier for folks to deal with (although mine could've been a one off problem -- either with me or the barrel).

I can't tell if the new pins were installed before or after park. And I'm not pulling it off to find out.

One more thing. The new barrel I received has an unusual stamping on it. It says "1/7." Anyone know what that means?

(Grant knew I was longing for a 1/7 and told me as long as he was swapping out barrels they cost the same so he'd use a 1/7. I told him I'd eat the "upgrade" cost to 1/7, either by selling the 1/9 on the EE or paying him for his shop services. I did not receive a bill with the upper.)

What can I say about my experience with Sabre? Outstanding customer service and a great product. I would definitely recommend these barrels.

No pics because the rifle and upper look the same.

I can't wait to shoot it. Thanks Grant!



Corey
Link Posted: 7/20/2005 9:31:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Corey:

One more thing. The new barrel I received has an unusual stamping on it. It says "1/7." Anyone know what that means?


Corey



Hahaha! That's great!
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