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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/19/2005 1:12:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:13:19 PM EDT by RepublicanMan]
I just picked up an old slabside Colt SP1 (great deal or I'd have passed most likely, being a lefty and all) that has had the barrel, stock and handguards changed. Looks like the old XM-177 setup Colt used to make, 11.5in barrel, premanently attached long flash-hider and a collapsable stock. How bad did this hurt the value of this rifle? How (besides dealing with Colt) can I determine the age of it? I know the upper and lower are matched originals, all the rollmarks are present, complete with the A1 rear sight. The SN is SP81XXX, only 5 digits and the SP.....

Thanks
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:50:42 PM EDT
It was made in 1977.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:52:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:53:21 PM EDT by uxb]
I would say not having the original stock, handguards, and barrel gives it a pretty good hit to someone who is looking for that type of rifle, but for how much...I really couldn't say.

You could probably piece it out and get your money back (or more), but if it's a rifle you intend to keep and shoot, I wouldn't worry too much about the non-original parts. Just enjoy your bargain and shoot it.

Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:53:27 PM EDT
Thanks.......how devalued is it due to the modifications made to it?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:55:07 PM EDT
Posted at the same time UXB...........I probably won't shoot it much.....had my fill of .223 brass in my face back in Basic Training when these were all the Army had.......I grabbed it to use as trade bait basically.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:01:51 PM EDT
www.biggerhammer.net Will give you production year of your piece. It's probably a year or so older than my own SP1, which is serial 92xxx, and was a 1978 piece, if I remember the Bigger Hammer listing correctly.

What you apparently have there is one of the carbine versions, that came w/a 16" barrel, had the barrel chopped, and had an aftermarket copy of the XM177 suppressor installed. What it's worth will depend on how good a copy of the 177 suppressor is on it. Many of the aftermarket copies are pretty "nonoriginal" in appearence. Obviously, condition is also a factor.

Unmodified SP1 carbines bring $800-$1000 these days, I think; though region of the country could move the value up or down a bit. I wouldn't care to speculate on what yours might be worth though, Probably a bit less, certainly not more.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:15:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By shamayim:
www.biggerhammer.net Will give you production year of your piece. It's probably a year or so older than my own SP1, which is serial 92xxx, and was a 1978 piece, if I remember the Bigger Hammer listing correctly.

What you apparently have there is one of the carbine versions, that came w/a 16" barrel, had the barrel chopped, and had an aftermarket copy of the XM177 suppressor installed. What it's worth will depend on how good a copy of the 177 suppressor is on it. Many of the aftermarket copies are pretty "nonoriginal" in appearence. Obviously, condition is also a factor.

Unmodified SP1 carbines bring $800-$1000 these days, I think; though region of the country could move the value up or down a bit. I wouldn't care to speculate on what yours might be worth though, Probably a bit less, certainly not more.



Thanks!!!
From what I can tell, the gentleman above was correct, it is indeed a 1977 production piece...the collapsable stock appears to be original as well and it has the ribbed handguards mentioned so it does look like the carbine that was modified with the flash suppressor......I do know that the barrel was cut down (or replaced) to 11.5 inches because you can clearly see the actual crown at the base of the suppressor when you shine a light down into it.

Might end up keeping this one and just let it collect some dust in the safe.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:17:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 2:19:24 PM EDT by Couch-Commando]
I'vre seen used lowers going on gunbroker for over 500 dollars. it can't be devalued that much. Also, if you don't want to keep it, a preban, in usable condition, is worth a lot of money in a ban state.

ETA: these lowers are also very valuable to retro builders/collectors. That may change in a month or so, when ASA starts making retro lowers.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:18:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RepublicanMan:

Might end up keeping this one and just let it collect some dust in the safe.


If you decide not to and wanna trade the lower for a newer A2 one...contact me .
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:21:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

If you decide not to and wanna trade the lower for a newer A2 one...contact me .




I was born in the mornin' but it wasn't yesterday mornin'.

If I do decide to trade it off, it will be for a complete rifle of some sort or another.....I'll list it here on ARFcom first though.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:28:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RepublicanMan:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:

If you decide not to and wanna trade the lower for a newer A2 one...contact me .




I was born in the mornin' but it wasn't yesterday mornin'.

If I do decide to trade it off, it will be for a complete rifle of some sort or another.....I'll list it here on ARFcom first though.


Lol I wasn't trying to say you were stupid or anything...I actually meant my complete lower for your stripped if you ever decide to trade just the lower off. Anyways, where are some pics of this beast?
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:40:56 PM EDT









There ya go.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:41:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 2:43:02 PM EDT by Blanco_Diablo]

Originally Posted By RepublicanMan:
i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/rreno/Colt005.jpg

i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/rreno/Colt003.jpg

i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/rreno/Colt002.jpg

i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/rreno/Colt001.jpg


There ya go.


Yummy

ETA: Did they sell them with front pivot pins like that? I thought all slabsides came with a screw type one...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:45:22 PM EDT
Came with a 20 round Colt floorplate marked magazine and a 30 round Colt floorplate marked magazine.

If I do get rid of it it'll be for an M4 style like the Bushy modular carbine, an FAL or maybe a nice Bulgarian AK-74.......not too sure what I want to do yet.

I figure one of you Kool-Aid drinkers will snap it up once I decide to get rid of it though.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:58:55 PM EDT
I think the tapered Delta ring was not origional to a 1978 Colt Carbine, Usally it means the barrel was swapped out, But you never know!
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 2:59:11 PM EDT
If you decide to trade it off I've got an extra FAL Carbine, let me know

is that a heavy barrel?
Looks like a cast front sight tower, yes? no?

anyway, I love the SP1's and not too much of a fondness for the heavy FAL
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:01:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By garr:
I think the tapered Delta ring was not origional to a 1978 Colt Carbine, Usally it means the barrel was swapped out, But you never know!



I couldn't say.......but I suspect you're correct in that the barrel was replaced, can't see cutting one down and having it recrowned when new barrels in various lengths are so readily available.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:09:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By YardDogOne:
If you decide to trade it off I've got an extra FAL Carbine, let me know

is that a heavy barrel?
Looks like a cast front sight tower, yes? no?

anyway, I love the SP1's and not too much of a fondness for the heavy FAL



Send me some pictures and info on the FAL, you never know......

I'm not sure if it's cast or not....it has what looks like a casting line on the flat part facing the carry handle but I couldn't promise that it is or isn't.

It is a heavy barrel, same profile under the handguards.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:14:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RepublicanMan:

Originally Posted By YardDogOne:
If you decide to trade it off I've got an extra FAL Carbine, let me know

is that a heavy barrel?
Looks like a cast front sight tower, yes? no?

anyway, I love the SP1's and not too much of a fondness for the heavy FAL



Send me some pictures and info on the FAL, you never know......

I'm not sure if it's cast or not....it has what looks like a casting line on the flat part facing the carry handle but I couldn't promise that it is or isn't.

It is a heavy barrel, same profile under the handguards.



Colts never made cast rifles...
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:16:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Couch-Commando:

Colts never made cast rifles...




Good thing the sight tower isn't a rifle then....I'd feel cheated.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:21:50 PM EDT
sent you an IM
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 3:32:04 PM EDT
Replied.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:30:19 PM EDT
The barrel has been replaced. Your FSB is cast.

The carbine stock is not original either. The castle nut and backplate are not colt.

The stock is not vynil coated.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 5:47:34 PM EDT
Well, that answers that question. The only thing that gives this value for the non-KoolAid drinkers is that it is a nice A1 lower receiver (albeit large front pivot pin). This point will be moot once ASA and other manufacturers start producing their own A1 receivers here in a few weeks.

There will still be the "Colt" people who will want it for what the lower says on it, and it is still marketable to those in the Occupied Territories who still need a "pre-ban" rifle or lower.

As it were, had it been an original with a tear-drop forward assist and the vinyl-acetate coated buttstock, I'd have traded for it and chopped it to an XM177E2.
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 7:13:39 PM EDT
Well there ya go..........still makes good trade bait.

I'm going to take it and shoot it tomorrow.........depending on the amount of brass I eat I may go ahead and keep it.
Link Posted: 8/20/2005 6:46:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/20/2005 6:53:26 AM EDT by shamayim]

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The barrel has been replaced. Your FSB is cast.

The carbine stock is not original either. The castle nut and backplate are not colt.

The stock is not vynil coated.



Stock looks vinyl coated to me, but maybe your screen shows a clearer picture than mine. The castle nut hadn't been adopted when this rifle was made. Just a simple round piece, w/a hole on each side, and that too looks original in the pic. Most of the back plates Colt installed are a slightly lighter shade of parkerizing than the nut, and, of course are staked.

If the stock piece is indeed vinyl coated, and the nut/backplate staked. look for a dab of black paint at the point of the staking. If it's there, it's Colt; and it may be even if there isn't any paint dab. After this many years, the paint may have been washed away by bore cleaner, oil etc. Mine was

Re the barrel, look for two things. First, check the chamber end, and see if there is a collar of chrome plating around the end. If not, then it's not Colt. If there is, go to the front sight base, and look at that "line" at the rear. If it's pencil thin, then it almost certainly is cast, and not Colt. If it's about an eighth of an inch across, it's a forged piece---and a combination of chrome plated bore and forged sight base almost certainly makes it a Colt barrel.

Just as info for some of you more recent Colt owners, back in the '70s, Colt actually did some polishing of the front sight bases. My own SP1 barrel, and a Viet Nam era M16 barrel I got last year have absolutely no trace of forge lines front or rear, and the sides are almost completely smooth.

(Edited to add) The tapered delta ring is not original; but whoever built this may have been the same kind of nutcase I am; and made a point of using the proper shaped ring. The XM177E2 was the first AR to use the delta ring. I busted my hump finding one in 1979, for my own 177E2 clone
Link Posted: 8/21/2005 8:03:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 8:20:22 AM EDT by scottryan]

Originally Posted By shamayim:

Originally Posted By scottryan:
The barrel has been replaced. Your FSB is cast.

The carbine stock is not original either. The castle nut and backplate are not colt.

The stock is not vynil coated.



Stock looks vinyl coated to me, but maybe your screen shows a clearer picture than mine. The castle nut hadn't been adopted when this rifle was made. Just a simple round piece, w/a hole on each side, and that too looks original in the pic. Most of the back plates Colt installed are a slightly lighter shade of parkerizing than the nut, and, of course are staked.

If the stock piece is indeed vinyl coated, and the nut/backplate staked. look for a dab of black paint at the point of the staking. If it's there, it's Colt; and it may be even if there isn't any paint dab. After this many years, the paint may have been washed away by bore cleaner, oil etc. Mine was

Re the barrel, look for two things. First, check the chamber end, and see if there is a collar of chrome plating around the end. If not, then it's not Colt. If there is, go to the front sight base, and look at that "line" at the rear. If it's pencil thin, then it almost certainly is cast, and not Colt. If it's about an eighth of an inch across, it's a forged piece---and a combination of chrome plated bore and forged sight base almost certainly makes it a Colt barrel.

Just as info for some of you more recent Colt owners, back in the '70s, Colt actually did some polishing of the front sight bases. My own SP1 barrel, and a Viet Nam era M16 barrel I got last year have absolutely no trace of forge lines front or rear, and the sides are almost completely smooth.

(Edited to add) The tapered delta ring is not original; but whoever built this may have been the same kind of nutcase I am; and made a point of using the proper shaped ring. The XM177E2 was the first AR to use the delta ring. I busted my hump finding one in 1979, for my own 177E2 clone



His nut is not colt. They have 3 holes in them and small pockets for the staking. He has the type olympic arms sells where the holes are not drilled all the way through.

I never said his nut was a castle nut.

His stock is not Colt. The rear sling loop on the top of the stock body is angled on the front of it. Colt never made a stock like that. Colt stocks have a rounded controur and the edge is at a 90 degree angle.

Smooth forged FSB appeared in the early 60's on Colts. Around 1963~1964. After that it was the rough forged FSB we still use today. The 70's would be the rough forging.

Your FSB was probably NOS when it was installed on your 1970's SP1 barrel.

He would not have a smooth forged FSB on a .750" barrel as those two feature are 20 years apart from each other.



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