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Posted: 4/14/2006 1:52:47 PM EST
So let's say I have a friend who has a chance to get a 11.5" upper without any transfer paperwork. My friend has no Class 3 or tax stamps or anything of the sort, but is a good law-abiding citizen. Should my friend get said upper or is the risk too great? Any LEO advice would be good here. My friend is not up on all the laws and certainly doesn't want to get in any trouble with the almighty ATF. Thanks everyone. My friend appreciates it.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:57:19 PM EST
Tell "your friend" to just go ahead with the NFA paperwork on his lower. It's a LOT cheaper than the alternative!

Good luck with that.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:57:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:57:25 PM EST
Sounds like a question only your friend can answer


is the juice worth the squeeze? Acquire it illegally or legally.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:58:40 PM EST
An upper alone requires no paperwork. If he puts it on a lower that's not a registered SBR, MG, or a pistol (which means a virgin lower reciever) he's committing a crime.

Google "constructive possession" for additional entertaining and confusing information.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:58:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By bigbore:
ATF= After The Fact





I'm not going to test that theory...
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 1:59:55 PM EST
Well let's say then that my friend would rather not dedicate this upper to a lower. Just ball this whole idea up and trash it?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:02:26 PM EST

Originally Posted By rizzo1318:
Well let's say then that my friend would rather not dedicate this upper to a lower. Just ball this whole idea up and trash it?



Or you could do that. All it takes is for the wrong person to get the wrong idea and turn you, er, uh, I mean him in and then game on... Say Ex Wife?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:03:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:03:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By rizzo1318:
So let's say I have a friend who has a chance to get a 11.5" upper without any transfer paperwork. My friend has no Class 3 or tax stamps or anything of the sort, but is a good law-abiding citizen. Should my friend get said upper or is the risk too great? Any LEO advice would be good here. My friend is not up on all the laws and certainly doesn't want to get in any trouble with the almighty ATF. Thanks everyone. My friend appreciates it.



Tell your friend that there is nothing intrinsically illegal about an 11.5" upper. The problem comes in when your friend:

a) Owns the 11.5" upper
b) Owns a rifle lower that said upper will fit on (and thus make an unregistered SBR)
c) Does NOT have an NFA tax stamp
d) Does NOT own a lower registered as a pistol

When all four of those conditions are met, your friend will find himself an unhappy camper. I believe the ATF calls it "constructive possession" and it's frowned upon greatly. I would tell your friend to avoid finding himself in that postion or he'll no longer be "a good law-abiding citizen."
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:04:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:06:58 PM EST by dmin]
If your friend has a registered pistol lower, I would think it would be legal to own the upper. I think even if it is just a bare lower, registered as a pistol, with the intention to build it as a pistol, the 11.5" upper would be "parts" for it.

Without owning a a pistol lower, I believe your friend could get in some serious trouble.

Edit: Looks like a bunch of people provided the same asnwer while I was thinking of what to type
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:10:47 PM EST
Well then I think I'll tell my friend to scrap the whole idea. Thanks everyone. I can always depend on you for good info, no BS.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:11:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:11:20 PM EST by HighStrung1]
Are you sure it's not an 11.5" barrel with permanently attached 5.5" flash hider?

That would be legal.

HS1
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:13:19 PM EST
I think it has been mentioned here before that, regardless of the technicalities of the law or what you think is legal or not, a short-barreled upper should NOT be owned unless you have a registered SBR lower or a registered pistol lower.

I have also heard that even if you do own a pistol lower, you should only have ONE short upper per pistol lower. Having short uppers not mated to a particular pistol lower could conceivably be construed as "constructive posession" or whatever BS charge the ATF now calls it.

Remember, the ATF doesn't care what the law says.....even if its legal, you might find yourself with an expensive legal bill!
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:22:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 2:23:37 PM EST by DK-Prof]
So, your "friend" (who ius a "good law-abiding citizen") wants advice on whether or not he should commit a felony?




Gosh - that is a tough one, isn't it?



If "he" wants to violate the NFA laws, he should go ahead and do so. It's a free country. Just please tell "him" to not bitch and complain when the ATF decide to violate him.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:55:32 PM EST
If he isn't willing to spend the $200 and wait for a tax stamp, he can at least spend about the same amount and get a pistol lower to cover his ass. Then he can get the tax stamp at his leisure.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 2:56:58 PM EST

Originally Posted By libertyforall:
I think it has been mentioned here before that, regardless of the technicalities of the law or what you think is legal or not, a short-barreled upper should NOT be owned unless you have a registered SBR lower or a registered pistol lower.

I have also heard that even if you do own a pistol lower, you should only have ONE short upper per pistol lower. Having short uppers not mated to a particular pistol lower could conceivably be construed as "constructive posession" or whatever BS charge the ATF now calls it.




But what about buying a pistol lower and building a pistol upper, then building a carbine upper, putting the carbine upper on the lower and replacing the pistol buffer tube with an M-4 stock and buying another pistol lower for the pistol upper? Then building two more carbine uppers and having the first carbine upper shortened to 12 inches? (two pistol uppers, two carbine uppers, two lowers originally documented as pistols)

As long as either of the two pistol uppers is never placed on a lower while it has a stock on it, seems the only thing that would apply is constructive possession of a pistol (with both lowers already documented as pistols).
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 3:36:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 3:36:41 PM EST by thehardmaster]


But what about buying a pistol lower and building a pistol upper, then building a carbine upper, putting the carbine upper on the lower and replacing the pistol buffer tube with an M-4 stock and buying another pistol lower for the pistol upper? Then building two more carbine uppers and having the first carbine upper shortened to 12 inches? (two pistol uppers, two carbine uppers, two lowers originally documented as pistols)

As long as either of the two pistol uppers is never placed on a lower while it has a stock on it, seems the only thing that would apply is constructive possession of a pistol (with both lowers already documented as pistols).



Once you put that stock on the first pistol, it is considered a rifle and can never go back to pistol status. So, when you are finished with all of the above you have one pistol lower with a pistol upper and one rifle lower with 3 undocumented SBR uppers.

Definitely a better idea to just pay the $200 tax, and register your rifle lower as an SBR. There has never been a better time to do it; my last 2 came back in under 60 days.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:48:28 PM EST
Tell him to go through the legal channels. Better safe than sorry.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 4:53:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By thehardmaster:
Once you put that stock on the first pistol, it is considered a rifle and can never go back to pistol status. So, when you are finished with all of the above you have one pistol lower with a pistol upper and one rifle lower with 3 undocumented SBR uppers.




This is wrong. It's been hashed out here many times. Once a pistol, it can switch back and forth betweeen rifle and pistol configs. Google US vs Thompson-Center.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:13:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By rizzo1318:
So let's say I have a friend who has a chance to get a 11.5" upper without any transfer paperwork. My friend has no Class 3 or tax stamps or anything of the sort, but is a good law-abiding citizen. Should my friend get said upper or is the risk too great? Any LEO advice would be good here. My friend is not up on all the laws and certainly doesn't want to get in any trouble with the almighty ATF. Thanks everyone. My friend appreciates it.



You dont need to transfer a short upper. You can own all of the short uppers you want. Put it together and you have yourself an illegal firearm.

Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:20:18 PM EST
Why not perm attach a 5.5 inch fake moderator to it until he decides if he wants to go SBR or not? Sure as hell cheaper than a lawyer...
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 5:39:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By DavidC:

Originally Posted By thehardmaster:
Once you put that stock on the first pistol, it is considered a rifle and can never go back to pistol status. So, when you are finished with all of the above you have one pistol lower with a pistol upper and one rifle lower with 3 undocumented SBR uppers.




This is wrong. It's been hashed out here many times. Once a pistol, it can switch back and forth betweeen rifle and pistol configs. Google US vs Thompson-Center.



+1 I wish people would stop telling lies on this forum.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 7:34:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By thehardmaster:


But what about buying a pistol lower and building a pistol upper, then building a carbine upper, putting the carbine upper on the lower and replacing the pistol buffer tube with an M-4 stock and buying another pistol lower for the pistol upper? Then building two more carbine uppers and having the first carbine upper shortened to 12 inches? (two pistol uppers, two carbine uppers, two lowers originally documented as pistols)

As long as either of the two pistol uppers is never placed on a lower while it has a stock on it, seems the only thing that would apply is constructive possession of a pistol (with both lowers already documented as pistols).



Once you put that stock on the first pistol, it is considered a rifle and can never go back to pistol status. So, when you are finished with all of the above you have one pistol lower with a pistol upper and one rifle lower with 3 undocumented SBR uppers.

Definitely a better idea to just pay the $200 tax, and register your rifle lower as an SBR. There has never been a better time to do it; my last 2 came back in under 60 days.



Besides the legal issue of converting a pistol to a rifle and back to a pistol, which others have already replied to, you have a reading comprehension problem.

Read it again and tell me how two pistol uppers and two carbine uppers (16+ inches) equals a pistol upper and 3 SBR (less than 16 inches) uppers.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 8:37:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By DevL:

Originally Posted By DavidC:

Originally Posted By thehardmaster:
Once you put that stock on the first pistol, it is considered a rifle and can never go back to pistol status. So, when you are finished with all of the above you have one pistol lower with a pistol upper and one rifle lower with 3 undocumented SBR uppers.




This is wrong. It's been hashed out here many times. Once a pistol, it can switch back and forth betweeen rifle and pistol configs. Google US vs Thompson-Center.



+1 I wish people would stop telling lies on this forum.



Q: What if I built it as a pistol first, then a rifle?
A: That's the only exception. If you build a pistol from a virgin receiver first, take some pictures and date them. Hang on to them. Then build your rifle. If you ever want to turn it back into a pistol, take the stock off FIRST, then put the pistol barrel back on.

Sorry, My bad. My apologies especially to DevL, who feels like I lied to him. Sounds like an acute case of MPH.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:17:34 PM EST
a strip lower is a stripped lower and just that.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:50:05 PM EST
Tell your friend to quit complaining and just get it the legal way. I would love to be able to pay $200 bucks and have an SBR. I'm even an LEO and can't have one in Illinois no matter what. Only police agencies can own them.
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 2:52:47 AM EST
People sitting around talking about commiting a crime.... @ what point can you be hit w/ a "conspiracy" charge? Or wouldnt this count being a public forum? -Justin
Link Posted: 4/15/2006 3:25:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By feral:

Originally Posted By rizzo1318:
So let's say I have a friend who has a chance to get a 11.5" upper without any transfer paperwork. My friend has no Class 3 or tax stamps or anything of the sort, but is a good law-abiding citizen. Should my friend get said upper or is the risk too great? Any LEO advice would be good here. My friend is not up on all the laws and certainly doesn't want to get in any trouble with the almighty ATF. Thanks everyone. My friend appreciates it.



Tell your friend that there is nothing intrinsically illegal about an 11.5" upper. The problem comes in when your friend:

a) Owns the 11.5" upper
b) Owns a rifle lower that said upper will fit on (and thus make an unregistered SBR)
c) Does NOT have an NFA tax stamp
d) Does NOT own a lower registered as a pistol

When all four of those conditions are met, your friend will find himself an unhappy camper. I believe the ATF calls it "constructive possession" and it's frowned upon greatly. I would tell your friend to avoid finding himself in that postion or he'll no longer be "a good law-abiding citizen."



He'll be bent over a bunk in the "pound me in the ass Federal Prison" for 10+ years is what he'll be. Ditch the upper asap. Doubly so if he has a compatible lower.
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