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Posted: 12/24/2002 3:16:50 PM EST
Just how much less chance does a SAW gunner have in a firefight of survivability than the standard grunt carrying an M4? What was the survival rate of M60 gunners on the ground in Viet Nam? Is there a parallel if we go to war in the gulf?
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 3:30:39 PM EST
The SAW is a piece of sh*t. I keep mine religiously clean everytime there's a live fire exercise, and after about one drum (200 rnds), it starts to jam every 15-20 rounds. If in combat, it wouldn't bother me to "accidentally" lose my SAW and pick up an M4. As to your other question, machine gunners generally have a lower life expectancy in combat than rifleman. How long precisely, I could not tell you.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 3:45:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2002 3:56:39 PM EST by bvmjethead]
Are you the only one or is this a common problem with the SAW? Does our guberment know about it? Do they care? Why can't my freaking tax $$ buy some good working weapons for the guys that defend me and my country. [soapbox] Edited to say: Damnit, why cant you guy's get raises. More gas and equipment for training. Better food, free cigarettes like long ago. New working equipment immediately after the worn out stuff becomes worn out. I want answers. WHERE THE HECK DOES ALL MY TAX $$ GO????? Kick these damn loafers off welfare MAKE them get a job (or starve, makes no difference to me) and give our military PEOPLE the $$ we save. Pay the firemen, police officers and TEACHERS more, and kill the loafers. Edited to say: Damn, I am in a bad mood. Sorry guy's I hate Christmas. Single, no wife/kids/family, just hate this time of year. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 4:05:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2002 4:13:05 PM EST by rifleshooter]
As a jughead during the M60E3 phase out I can tell you that the M240 and M249 (both similar FN designs) are by far superior to the M60E3. Never saw many problems with the SAW and was in awe with the 240. I was either in 29 Plams at MCAGCC or the Gulf most of my 4 years and did nothing but shoot shit. Only bad thing I heard, never once saw, was that with the 30 round mag in use the bolt could sheer off the top and really mess things up. Unlike the M60, with the 240 you could just about stand on the belt and the gun would still feed. Bill Sgt 7th Marines Chris, As a Marine how are you going to pick up an M4 if most of the Corps does not use them? What unit are you with? www.rifleshooter.com
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 4:41:59 PM EST
My guys loved their SAWs, but the M60's we had were getting long in the tooth. We did have problems with the SAWs feeding from a mag, but it did great with the 200 round box, we also got covers for the ammo box which helped a lot. I got out active in 93(reserves 99), but some units where getting 240's with the mod kit so they could carry them, they could not stop talking about how great(and heavy) the MG was. I would take the firepower of the SAW, but MG's always draw fire.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:03:35 PM EST
The M249 is extremely reliable IF operators clean it and armorers maintain them. I was an armorer for four years and do not recall any problems related to reliability or accuracy whether deployed, in the field, or range time. As far as cleanliness goes - I was the biggest asshole to ever roam an arms room - its like I got off on death threats. When weapons are properly PMCS'd they rarely break or malfunction. The M249 is fine - its operators/maintaince personnel not doing their job. A lot of people cry about the weight - I carried a SAW purposefully when being the armorer it was pretty much my choice. The only two weak links on the SAW are the M16 mag well (sh#tty design concept) and the 200rnd mag which has a tendency to fall off or unlock during serious movement. I've fired thousands of rounds through the M249 - live and blanks and do not recall a single malfunction - even the old beat-up SAW's ( the originals) work fine if properly maintained like any other weapon. Then to - I've seen many a chain of command too lazy or inept to take care of its arms room properly. Fortunately, my last unit had a commander and First Sergeant who DID care about the weapons they may soon be going to war with.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:10:22 PM EST
Originally Posted By rifleshooter: As a Marine how are you going to pick up an M4 if most of the Corps does not use them?
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This thread is about the survivability of a SAW gunner vs. a guy armed with an M4. He doesn't have to pick up a Marine M4. He picks up the dead Army soldier's M4. Oh, and I think that a guy with an M4 is more manuverable (sp?) and that a SAW gunner is a juicier target for snipers and sharpshooters.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:34:44 PM EST
As a Marine I never had an AR. I carried the M14.
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 5:36:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/24/2002 5:43:23 PM EST by rifleshooter]
Valkyre, Sorry about hijacking the thread, but something interesting cam into play about the SAW. Unfortunately in real life most if any operations do not work like that; neither does the Marine Corps. The chances of you working in close proximity to an army unit is unlikely, as is the unlikely event that there would be so many casualties that there would be rifles littering the battlefield. The SAW gunner will carry his and deploy his weapon for numeros reasons, the biggest being that his squad and fire team leaders will tell him to, additionally he has little place in the armed forces if he isn't willing to be a better target for the enemy while filling a valuable niche in his fire team. I would really like to see some Lance Corporal ditch his SAW in a firefight, very unprofessional, very stupid and very nonMarine. I suspect our firend who complains about the SAW has limited experience (maybe a pogue, boot or reservist) and is basing his opinion on this, if this is not the case I stand corrected. Merry Christmas! Bill
Link Posted: 12/24/2002 6:06:00 PM EST
Rifleshooter, Sorry, I was just trying to help the thread make sense. I have never heard of a SAW malfunctioning. He must have been using USA mags with bent feed lips... [;)]
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 4:35:00 AM EST
Here's the deal, one of my "boys" - now grown men - is assigned as a SAW gunner in a Ranger battalion in Ft. Lewis, WA. If the Gulf thing happens, he will be there. His chance of survivability and welfare concern me greatly.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 5:28:43 AM EST
"Survivability rate" and "Combat life expectancy" are all a bunch of defeatist RUMINT crap that the troops spread around. Machinegunners tend to shoot more often than riflemen, tend to draw more fire because of it, and account for about 8-12% of ENEMY casualties, but artillery is responsible for about 60% of deaths and injuries to US forces during major conflicts, and tends to not discriminate between whether its victim carries a rifle or a crew-served weapon. The two identifiable factors that have shown some correlation to survivability in combat are age and time in combat. I think Ambrose documented that replacement Infantrymen in the ETO in late 1944 to the end of the war lasted an average of 18 days before being killed or wounded seriously enough to be pulled off the line. However, the ones that made it past the 18 mark tended to last more or less indefinitely (depending on major engagements). The second factor is age. Troops in the 17-21 year old range had higher casualty rates, probably due to that feeling of invulnerability and general hardheadness that comes with youth. Older troops lasted longer, probably because a little bit of wisdom, street smarts and willingness to listen can go a long way on the battlefield.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 7:20:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2002 7:22:12 AM EST by X--Kill]
For manuverabilty I prefer the M4 but for the ability to lay down serious fire and to do so quite accurately for extended periods of time the SAW shines. I have not experienced any problems when using the M249 and I have fired the shit out of it in many situations. If properly PMCS'd and used the M249 keeps rolling and rolling. Maybe some of you guys having problems need some remedial training.[:D]
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 11:16:17 AM EST
There is a book by Johnnie Clark called "Guns Up!" which talks about his life as an M60 gunner in Vietnam. The average life expectancy was 8 seconds, they said, because the M60 gunner was the guy they feared the most, the first one they tried to get, and they could follow the tracers right back to him. 8 seconds was probably an exaggeration but many M60 gunners were killed and injured. It is a great book, recommend it highly. I suspect the SAW gunner is similarly targeted.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 11:34:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2002 11:37:16 AM EST by Stottman]
I am issued both a SAW and M-4. Never had any problems with the SAW, except when firing blanks. Just like any other weapon, you have to clean it. Of course, I have seen an AK jam with blanks also. I love the SAW. A blast to shoot. Seems to me that its harder to notice a SAW firing along side M-16/M-4s. They fire the exact same round. The sound seems to blend in with the M-4s firing. Unlike a 240 or 60, which is just plain louder. Also, most of the SAW ammo I have been getting lately is all ball. No tracer. This makes more sense, since you dont have an AG to spot for you anyways. You cant really see tracers when behind the gun, looking thru the sights.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 11:38:54 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2002 11:52:42 AM EST by rifleshooter]
We seem to forget that in real life an individuals arm is rarely his own personal choice and usually selected at a much higher level for good reason. I really can't speak for the Army, so this will apply to Marine line units. The smallest operational unit is the Corps is called a fire team, it consists of a machine gunner with a 249, a gunner, rifleman and team leader with a 203. Like everything else in any kind of organized professional military organization, everyboy has specific responsibilities. The SAW gunner provides a base of fire because that is what a SAW does. Basicly he does not have a choice about this, becuase he is a professional and he knows that his job is to provide a base of fire and people will die if he does not perform the task as required. He may draw more fire then some of the other fire team members, but assuming everyone else is doing their job he should be fine. Imagine a military where everone carried an M4 so they wouldn't draw fire, while we are at it lets leave the radio... that might get us shot... AT4, leave that, it draws fire...gernades, the ragheads don;t like them, tehy might shoot at us, leave them to...Sergeant, I don;t feel like going out on patrol today, I might get hurt....but wait.... if we surrender maybe we will live through the whole war. Who is going to breech the mine field? Not Me! Who is going to take that bunker? Not me! Natez, I suspect that the reason 17-21 y/o give up the ghost more then the older folks is a little more imvolved then youths invincibility, including the fact that they usually are of a lesser page grade and end up in places where more valuable mebers of the units such as officers and NCOs would be too easily compromised. Dancz, I think the Army is finally starting to learn their lesson from their many debackles and episodes of poor judgmenbt and terrible leadership. I think they finally figured out how to plan the for the contingencies they should have been all planning for all along. I think Somalia got their head out of their ass. Your boy will be fine.
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 11:44:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/25/2002 3:57:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/25/2002 4:00:19 PM EST by danc46]
Rifleshooter, thanks for the kind words of encouragement. Now that one of my boys will be serving in a front line unit with a SAW, I am literally scared s*itless. The average age of the soldier buried in Arlington Cemetary is 20. May God protect all who serve our country!
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 10:52:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/29/2002 12:36:18 PM EST by LARRYG36]
I sure as hell dont know what thats dudes problem is with his SAW, BUT my 249 gets the sh*t shot out of it, using WOLF AMMO too!!!!"NO PROBLEMS" it's one of my rental guns. [heavy] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/area51/DBS11.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/area51/John-SAW.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 2:56:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 3:01:58 PM EST
Ugh..the thought of the smell of all that Wolf ammo is making me queezy. I never could stand the smell of that stuff.
Link Posted: 12/29/2002 4:26:45 PM EST
danc46, Rifleshooter pretty much said what I wanted to. The Saw gunner covers the team that is covering him. The "Life expectancy" crap is a Doggy thing,and I really would like to see in real life where these ridiculous(And defeatist) figures come from. What a wonderfull way to motivate a grunt... "Boy you are gonna die 8 seconds into the firefight"!). The M249 will perk along as reliably as any other if it's kept up properly. They also need to have the dickens shot out of them initially before they get "Worn in" if you will.That and a sloppy good coat of CLP or TW25B(The new stuff) and they will run for many assault packs before taking a puke. Hell I burned 8 assault packs of blanks during a dog and pony show one time,and was HOPING the stupid thing would quit. Back then we had the option of "Adverse" and could really heat things up,and torched barrels weren't uncommon.They ran fine even in the Stumps with sand in them,and with Volcanic silt in them. Lcpl Madsen, If your M249 is junk,you best be letting your squad leader,2111,and platoon Sgt. know about it before you get a boot in your ass. Mother green ain't changed much since I got out so ya might want to get the SAW un-**&&(*ked before someone else does it for you. Whatever happens,Keep yer ass low and your chin high Marine. S-28
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:50:34 AM EST
My "boy" has had a SAW run away and had to break the belt. Promise you he keeps it well cleaned and lubed. It is just not a good piece. He tells me before they will be deployed he will be issued a new SAW. I don't know if they will let him carry it but I gave him a Sig 226 and G&G thigh holster for the Sig. The thought of the SAW jamming in a firefight scares the sh*t out of me. Sorry if ever one thought he is my real son, he is an "adopted son", coached him in soccer for several years and love him as my own. I am extremely proud of him and do worry about his welfare. Thanks to everyone for their opinion.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:16:44 AM EST
Sorry to tell you this but if your son get caught with a non-issue weapon good chance he gets in allot of trouble. The SWA packing list that we got, specifically states no private fire arms, ammunition or explosives. That has come down from the Combatant Commander Level (i.e. cannot be overrulled by anyone under JCS) level. Commanders are told they have to tell their troops that also to ensure no one can claim, "they didn't know."
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 4:09:27 AM EST
danc46, Guess you haven't been around machine guns very much. Runaway guns are more common then you think. The reason he knew he should break the belt to stop it is becuase someone told him. This can happen with any machine gun for any number of reasons. FYI, STLRN is correct, no personal weapons in our military, it just does not work like that.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:28:03 AM EST
He might not be able to carry his own private firearm, that is OK. But it does make me feel better that he has one if it every changes. As far as runaway guns, I have had it happen and I damn sure don't like it. I would much rather him carry an M4 than the SAW. The whole thing really drives home how much the soldiers put on the line for our country. They always have and always will and very seldom get the honor and credit due them!
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:40:42 AM EST
TROY, Thats the barrel with the bi-lock on it, so it can be shot with a Gemtech 96D on it, if i used the standard barrel the thing becomes way too long. And plus it makes the gun alot more easier to handle. [heavy]
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:13:27 AM EST
In regards to taking POFs to war; This is a command thing. Its ok (within reason) by Army Regs, but Commanders always add that under "General Order #1". Along with no War Trophys (still alowed by ATF and Army regs), no beer, no women. Some units look the other way; Thats what a SAW ammo pouch is for. Keeps your pistol out of sight. Out of sight, out of mind. In the rare event you have to pull it out, I dont think you will care if you get in trouble anyways.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:22:25 AM EST
I rate the SAW as one of the finest weapons in the Marine Corps' arsenal. I have never seen a SAW suffer any chronic reliability problems, except when firing blanks from mags. Unsurpassed volume of fire, 3 per squad. Perfection. If I could own one Class 3 weapon, it would be a SAW. Those who know their business, know the SAW is a gem.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 6:24:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By rifleshooter: Chris, As a Marine how are you going to pick up an M4 if most of the Corps does not use them? What unit are you with?
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Good question, Sergeant.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:29:54 AM EST
CINCINNATUS knows the deal, the saw ROCKS!!!!! [heavy] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/area51/DBS03.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.thermaldynamics.com/pictures/area51/DBS10.JPG[/img]
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 11:53:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 12:09:58 PM EST
I was passionately in love with my SAW. The only flaws were the mag feed system which did not work and the fact that I was not issued a spare barrel. My SAW only screwed up with blanks, never any other way. Also, if you want your machinegunners to be more accurate, get rid of the tracers, so that getting all ball belts might be a good idea.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 2:03:27 PM EST
The problems with blank ammunition might be attributed to the fact that most of the military was ( and much of it still is )using the WRONG blank adapter for a long time. The M16 BFA is red and square in shape - the M249 BFA is more tubular in shape. Many units were using M16A2 blank adapters on their SAW's until a TACOM warning came out about a year or so ago. The M249 will accept the M16A2 blank adapter - but it will not function properly and will damage the BFA or the compensator. I've seen pictures of BFA's/compensators destroyed because of soldiers being given the improper equipment. The right BFA means everything to proper functioning. Its like trying to shoot blanks out of an M-2 without the blank adapter tightened AND expecting it to cycle right. If anyone has noticed the nice new "pretty" yellow BFA's, they are strictly for the M4 carbine - not to be used on an M16. I even saw a photograph on an Army publication of soldiers using yellow M4 BFA's on M16's - pretty ate up considering the Army goes out of its way to look "squared away" - and this was in a safety related handout. I'm not blaming operators here - most units are grossly ignorant that they're using the wrong equipment. This way sound kind of trivial - but most likely accounts for most feeding problems with blank ammunition - I've put a lot of blanks through a SAW and NEVER has a misfeed using the 200rnd drums and the M249 BFA. The only other factor I see is armorers not doing their job - or being allowed to do their job. Which is one reason why there are some beat to hell SAW's in service. Its really not that hard to code out a weapon if the reciever is excessively worn or damaged. And everything else can be ordered and replaced - so no excuse for ate up SAW's anywhere.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 8:11:51 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/30/2002 8:30:53 PM EST by rifleshooter]
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By rifleshooter: Chris, As a Marine how are you going to pick up an M4 if most of the Corps does not use them? What unit are you with?
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Good question, Sergeant.
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One I often ask myself. Lots of people out there pretending to be something they are not while others are just weighing in on something as if they were an expert, yet have no experience beyond the confines of the internet. Just because my cousin is a doctor, it does not mean I went to medical school.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:28:22 PM EST
[50]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:53:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By rifleshooter:
Just because my cousin is a doctor, it does not mean I went to medical school.
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Yeah, but I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express last night [;)]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 10:43:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 10:48:46 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: The SAW is a piece of sh*t. I keep mine religiously clean everytime there's a live fire exercise, and after about one drum (200 rnds), it starts to jam every 15-20 rounds. If in combat, it wouldn't bother me to "accidentally" lose my SAW and pick up an M4. As to your other question, machine gunners generally have a lower life expectancy in combat than rifleman. How long precisely, I could not tell you.
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This post has been bugging me. First of all, any grunt knows that a SAW gunner(0311) is not a "machinegunner"(0331). IF you actually are a Marine, you're a God-damned disgrace. If you were in my unit, and you "accidentally" lost your SAW, in combat.... ...I'd have you up on charges faster than you could say Big Chicken Dinner. Hell, I'd bring you up on charges for jusrt saying that. So what is it? Are you: a) a liar? b) a disgrace to the Corps? c) Both? Take your pick. There are no other options (shitbag) Wisconsin has two USMCR Grunt units, and one Wing unit: Company G, 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines Company F, 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines Marine Wing Support Squadron 471. Answer the Question, or I'm giving them a call. (By the way, I outrank your CO)
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:14:22 AM EST
OK.... All testosterone aside.... The question was how long will a human target last if it is carrying a SAW vs M4. Based on the differ between the weight of the M60 and the weight of the SAW, I wouldn't say that the vietnam comparison is apples to apples. I have fired my friends SAW many a time, and we hiked some serious distance with it on his uncle's ranch. I would say that it is pretty compact and manuverable for a HMG. I would rather carry a SAW than an AR. However, in combat, placement of operators or troops under fire behind cover has more to do with how long someone will live. If your enemy has plenty of grenades, better cover, and your squad is just staying put behind cover; Advantage = enemy. Combat is a "team sport". If everyone is just sitting around the enemy has more time to asess targets. If you have guys trying to flank or run a "V" or a high ground sweep, you may be better off and have a better chance. Anyways, tactics make champions. If it was just up to the weapon, who would need the military? Anyway, I recommend the grip mount under the barrel and leaving the bi-pod open for when you eat the dirt. - sorry about spelling, spell check takes too long on my pos computer
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:05:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By OutlawJoseyWales: OK.... All testosterone aside.... The question was how long will a human target last if it is carrying a SAW vs M4. Based on the differ between the weight of the M60 and the weight of the SAW, I wouldn't say that the vietnam comparison is apples to apples. I have fired my friends SAW many a time, and we hiked some serious distance with it on his uncle's ranch. I would say that it is pretty compact and manuverable for a HMG. I would rather carry a SAW than an AR. However, in combat, placement of operators or troops under fire behind cover has more to do with how long someone will live. If your enemy has plenty of grenades, better cover, and your squad is just staying put behind cover; Advantage = enemy. Combat is a "team sport". If everyone is just sitting around the enemy has more time to asess targets. If you have guys trying to flank or run a "V" or a high ground sweep, you may be better off and have a better chance. Anyways, tactics make champions. If it was just up to the weapon, who would need the military? Anyway, I recommend the grip mount under the barrel and leaving the bi-pod open for when you eat the dirt. - sorry about spelling, spell check takes too long on my pos computer
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The SAW is an LMG, not an HMG.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:20:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus:
Originally Posted By christopher_madsen: The SAW is a piece of sh*t. I keep mine religiously clean everytime there's a live fire exercise, and after about one drum (200 rnds), it starts to jam every 15-20 rounds. If in combat, it wouldn't bother me to "accidentally" lose my SAW and pick up an M4. As to your other question, machine gunners generally have a lower life expectancy in combat than rifleman. How long precisely, I could not tell you.
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This post has been bugging me. First of all, any grunt knows that a SAW gunner(0311) is not a "machinegunner"(0331). IF you actually are a Marine, you're a God-damned disgrace. If you were in my unit, and you "accidentally" lost your SAW, in combat.... ...I'd have you up on charges faster than you could say Big Chicken Dinner. Hell, I'd bring you up on charges for jusrt saying that. So what is it? Are you: a) a liar? b) a disgrace to the Corps? c) Both? Take your pick. There are no other options (shitbag) Wisconsin has two USMCR Grunt units, and one Wing unit: Company G, 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines Company F, 2nd Battalion, 24th Marines Marine Wing Support Squadron 471. Answer the Question, or I'm giving them a call. (By the way, I outrank your CO)
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A combination of A and B. Well said! Semper Fi [url]www.rifleshooter.com[/url] [marines]
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:26:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 12:27:26 PM EST by rifleshooter]
Originally Posted By OutlawJoseyWales: OK.... All testosterone aside....
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Sir, Frauds, liars, wannabes and gun store armchair commandos need to be exposed for what they are. This is not testosterone, only a couple of guys that have a sense of pride in their organization and what it has accomplished. We have our 10%, we spend every waking moment weeding them out, they do not represent us, neither do those whose combat or military experience is a mental delusion. Happy New Year!
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 12:51:55 PM EST
OK, excuse me. I guess the military guys should be the only ones who can have an opinion here. Is that what you are hinting at? I am no battle trained expert, but I have learned from a navy seabe (is that how you spell it?), a army liutenant colonel, and a marine a little about tactics here and there. I think that my conclusion that tactics play a larger role in survival than just the weapon is still correct (courage, strength, ext. aside). My point about the testosterone is that you can ask someone for evidence of who they are without being an asshole. So one of our fellow members has a self esteem issue that give him the propencity to lie. Why don't we all just go and kick his ass???? It would be nice to read a test string on this web site without someone picking a fight over something like this.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:54:02 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 2:06:59 PM EST by rifleshooter]
Originally Posted By OutlawJoseyWales: OK, excuse me. I guess the military guys should be the only ones who can have an opinion here. Is that what you are hinting at? I am no battle trained expert, but I have learned from a navy seabe (is that how you spell it?), a army liutenant colonel, and a marine a little about tactics here and there. I think that my conclusion that tactics play a larger role in survival than just the weapon is still correct (courage, strength, ext. aside). My point about the testosterone is that you can ask someone for evidence of who they are without being an asshole. So one of our fellow members has a self esteem issue that give him the propencity to lie. Why don't we all just go and kick his ass???? It would be nice to read a test string on this web site without someone picking a fight over something like this.
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From these friends of yours I am sure you learned a little about the pride they had in what they did. That said, when someone makes something you have been part of look like a unorganized, unprofessional bunch of individuals, they should be called on it. This is not being an asshole as you stated, but bringing things back into reality. Maybe if you did your time you would feel differently.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:02:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 11:06:32 AM EST by Cincinnatus]
Josey, You just don't understand. That's a shame. The individual in question claimed to be a Marine. Then he claims that in combat, he'd ditch his assigned weapon, because he thinks HIS survival chances would improve. Asshole? Testosterone? Give me a break. Ask for evidence? No thanks, none needed. His words are all the proof any Marine would need. My choices of A, B, or C are still the only options. This guy's saying that if he was in combat, HE'D SELFISHLY LET HIS FELLOW MARINES DOWN NOT TO MENTION JEOPARDIZE THE MISSION. And he claims to be a Marine. That's an insult to the Corps. You might have learned a little about tactics, by talking to "some guys", fine. What about Honor and integrity? We, as a Nation, are on the brink of war. This scumbag disgraces his uniform. OR he's a kid who plays too many video games.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 2:23:23 PM EST
On the SAW being a machine gun or not topic. Although the reciever on the M249 says "machine gun, 5.56mm, M249", my understanding is that the M249's original role was to fill the void of an automatic rifle - not unlike the BAR which served honorably during its time. During the late 1980's when the military was transitioning to M16A2's with burst - not auto - the M249 was to fill the automatic rifle void - not a full fledged machine gun - but a squad automatic weapon - hence the name. Some people erroneously think it was supposed to replace the M60 machine gun. This is not the case. The M60 was replaced by the M240 series as a general purpose machine gun - to my knowledge the only units with M60's now are a handful of aviation units, the Coast Guard, and some Guard/Reserve forces in the States. I would consider someone unprofessional to ditch their M249 to carry a lighter M4. If a particular M249 is jacked up - its a reflection on the operator, the armorer, and finally the unit. Find the root cause of whatever is wrong and address it. I went out of my way to carry a SAW because I'd rather have one then an M4 in many situations. Plus, I got sick of people crying about the weight or whatever. Gave me an excuse to treat the weak like the p#ssies they were. Its not my place to judge, but if someone from a more elite unit then the Army crys about the SAW - I really don't know what to say or think. My last unit wasn't even combat arms - maybe thats why they looked at me crazy - but damn a SAW is nothing - try lugging an M240B and then I might sympathize with the whiners. Even my First Sergeant occasionally humped a SAW in the field.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 3:06:16 PM EST
A SAW is just that a SAW. They were around with Rangers before any M-16A2's were around. I seen 'em, Rangers, and SAW's in 1986. I believe they were still working on M16A1 "product" improvements. M16A2 was a known quanity, but hadn't been issued yet. I don't remember any M-60's, with the Rangers. I believe the initial plan was to replace most M-60's with M-249's. The Rangers got M-240G's in the early '90's, which is pretty much the original FN-MAG. Apparently there was some concern that a 5.56 MG wasn't exactly the tool a 7.62 MG was. The M-240B was a heatshielded, picatinny rail equipped M-240G. It was adopted, and classified as a medium MG. Prior to that there were LMG's, GPMG's, and HMG's according to the Army typing of MG's.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 4:54:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 4:55:04 PM EST by Cincinnatus]
The Corps had the M16A2 in 1982. Four years before the Army did, in 1986. The Corps had the SAW early, too.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 5:36:35 PM EST
A real Marine would ditch his M4 or m16 and pick up a saw if the saw gunner went down. Yes you draw more fire, but the next marine after you will drop his m16 or m4 and pick up the saw. Thats how "real " marines think/act. You dont play the odds to survive, you fight like hell. In Somolia we robbed all the tracer rounds from the saw packs. #1 some politician/officer decided that 60 rounds was just plenty for the m16's. #2 I liked being able to direct the fire with the tracers, my one gun had a whole squads firepower. This "new" Marine Corps scares the hell out of me, I hope this is not how they are thinking these days. Just my humble enlisted opinion.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 6:31:46 PM EST
Having had the chance to carry the M16A2, M249 SAW, M60E3 in the USMC has led me to the following conclusions: Take care of your gear and it will take care of you!! While the 249 did tend to jam up a bit, it was rare that a malfunction would require more than immediate action procedures to clear it. Now the new version of the SAW that is currently being used by some units, is great!! I have noticed an increase in reliability, and in a little smaller package. With the fluted barrels, QD flash suppressors, sound suppressors, and rail systems, this piece of gear can do some serious work. Too bad the Govt won't kick down the cash to buy one for everyone. I personally prefer to carry a 60, but I have absolutely no problem in picking up a SAW and knowing that it will do what I ask of it. As for the original topic question, Danc46: Bullets, bombs, grenades, rockets, mortars, and any other type of ordnance on the battlefield do not care whether or not someone is carrying a SAW or an M4. As long as the guys in your son's unit can shoot, move, and communicate effectively, there should be very little concern over which weapons system he is employing. Given that he is in a Ranger Batt, I think you will find this to be case.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 9:37:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By SemperGumby: A real Marine would ditch his M4 or m16 and pick up a saw if the saw gunner went down. Yes you draw more fire, but the next marine after you will drop his m16 or m4 and pick up the saw. Thats how "real " marines think/act. You dont play the odds to survive, you fight like hell. Just my humble enlisted opinion.
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Dead on. Semper fi.
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