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Posted: 8/10/2005 11:23:56 PM EDT
I'm sure it can be done, but can it be done well? How do you do it? Would it be a better idea to use a carbine or a handgun?
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:31:03 PM EDT
well, I've heard it's taught to put the stock of the M16 up on top of the shoulder to help reduce the over-all length of the gun when clearing a room.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:31:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spork:
I'm sure it can be done, but can it be done well? How do you do it? Would it be a better idea to use a carbine or a handgun?



Marines do it every day. My grandfather managed in WWII.
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 11:54:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By spork:
I'm sure it can be done, but can it be done well? How do you do it? Would it be a better idea to use a carbine or a handgun?



I had to do it one time only back in '85 when a friend and next door neighbor's house was burglarized. My neighbor requested me to help him clear his house because the police was running about two to four hours behind.

I had to use my 20-inch AR-15A2 rifle because all my pistols were not loaded except for one. I gave my neighbor my loaded revolver and told him to watch my six. We cleared his house and the police came four hours after he made his call, because they were busy in a murder case.

My father was an Army 11th Airborne in WWII and he have a M1 carbine with a M2 folding stock, but he was at work at the time.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:00:19 AM EDT
It's certainly possible to clear rooms with a full size rifle, just not ideal. "short-stocking" like the poster above said is one way to do it.


If you have a carbine, why would you want to use a rifle?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:03:56 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:09:31 AM EDT
Have done it before. A carbine is good to go, but you can also make due with a full sized rifle.

Max
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:41:13 AM EDT

It's like trying to paint a picture with a 4" brush...it can be done but it is not the best tool for the job. If that is all you have, train and practice with it and it should serve you well.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:48:07 AM EDT
Most deployed soldier don't have pistols, shotguns, or carbines, they have rifles. You go to war with the army you have, and you clear buildings with the weapon you carry.



Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:09:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
Shotgun would be my #1 pick.



Are you trying to piss Lumpy and I off this early in the morning?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:14:56 AM EDT
Gee Mark, I always figured you were inherently pissed off, you mean it takes something to trigger it

I've done room clearing drills with M16A2's and when you are in narrow hallways it sucks, cuz thats where they always put OPFOR on top of the cabinets and such and you can't get to them fast enough without snagging you're barrel on everything. Never tried this short stocking you're talking about, how does it work exactly? Is it just resting the buttstock on top of you're shoulder, I'm not seeing how you'd be able to aim with it or is it just a reflexive thing?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:17:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
I'm not seeing how you'd be able to aim with it or is it just a reflexive thing?



Steve,
Turn the rifle 90 degrees (so the side of the stock is resting on your shoulder). You should be able to have rudimentary use of the sights.

Of course guys in the military clearing rooms have toys like SAWs and Grenades to aid them....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:25:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 7:26:04 AM EDT by SWO_daddy]

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Shotgun would be my #1 pick.



Are you trying to piss Lumpy and I off this early in the morning?



Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:40:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
I'm not seeing how you'd be able to aim with it or is it just a reflexive thing?



Steve,
Turn the rifle 90 degrees (so the side of the stock is resting on your shoulder). You should be able to have rudimentary use of the sights.

Of course guys in the military clearing rooms have toys like SAWs and Grenades to aid them....



I see... so when I do this do I scream I'M A BUST A CAP IN YO ASS while clearing my sector and giving my report Funny story about MOUT training at the Wick, IM inbound. I'll try out that stance with my 20" when I get home.

Steve
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:58:51 AM EDT
It's like trying to paint a picture with a 4" brush...it can be done but it is not the best tool for the job. If that is all you have, train and practice with it and it should serve you well.[/size=2


From the guy above...........why bother using a 20 inch full stock gun if you have a 16 inch colapsable!!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:31:59 AM EDT
Well, the guys with M1 Garands, 98Ks, Mosins and Lee-Enfields figured out a way to do it in places like Aachen, Stalingrad, Berlin, Seoul, Arnhem etc.

Or "Full Length" M16's in Hue, Saigon etc.

There is a way and it can be done yes, it is not quite as easy but I used a full length rifle on the few raids during and in urban combat training before my last deployment. I found it a little easier with a carbine true, but I never surrendered my full length rifle when I had the choice and I had a very short upper that I used as a backup when I was a gunner on a Humvee or a TC in my Track.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:50:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Variablebinary:

Originally Posted By spork:
I'm sure it can be done, but can it be done well? How do you do it? Would it be a better idea to use a carbine or a handgun?



Marines do it every day. My grandfather managed in WWII.



AMEN..............................................
MARINES DO IT EVERY DAY
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:54:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
I'm not seeing how you'd be able to aim with it or is it just a reflexive thing?



Steve,
Turn the rifle 90 degrees (so the side of the stock is resting on your shoulder). You should be able to have rudimentary use of the sights.

Of course guys in the military clearing rooms have toys like SAWs and Grenades to aid them....



I see... so when I do this do I scream I'M A BUST A CAP IN YO ASS while clearing my sector and giving my report hug.gif Funny story about MOUT training at the Wick, IM inbound. I'll try out that stance with my 20" when I get home.

Steve




Rofl. I'd pick a shotgun too, so devistating at cqc, easy to shoot accurately and one shot will drop the enemy.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:00:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By KMFDM:
Well, the guys with M1 Garands, 98Ks, Mosins and Lee-Enfields figured out a way to do it in places like Aachen, Stalingrad, Berlin, Seoul, Arnhem etc.

Or "Full Length" M16's in Hue, Saigon etc.

There is a way and it can be done yes, it is not quite as easy but I used a full length rifle on the few raids during and in urban combat training before my last deployment. I found it a little easier with a carbine true, but I never surrendered my full length rifle when I had the choice and I had a very short upper that I used as a backup when I was a gunner on a Humvee or a TC in my Track.



ah yes...but that was back in the good old days when rooms were cleared with bayo's and butt-strokes...Kabars....1911 .45's...or Thompsons and/or Grease Guns...which imho were the original predecessors that gave birth to todays carbines....and why did they do that you ask?...simple....cause they WORKED SO WELL!!! LOL!!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:20:48 AM EDT
I see the Marines doing that with their rifles and wonder why they don't put a collapsible stock on a rifle ?

It might look a little odd but would be very functional.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:28:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By NUcadet07:
I'm not seeing how you'd be able to aim with it or is it just a reflexive thing?



Steve,
Turn the rifle 90 degrees (so the side of the stock is resting on your shoulder). You should be able to have rudimentary use of the sights.

Of course guys in the military clearing rooms have toys like SAWs and Grenades to aid them....



I see... so when I do this do I scream I'M A BUST A CAP IN YO ASS while clearing my sector and giving my report Funny story about MOUT training at the Wick, IM inbound. I'll try out that stance with my 20" when I get home.

Steve



Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:44:35 AM EDT
True to a point yes, but there were never enough Thompsons, Grease guns and carbines to go around- and I be willing to bet more were killed by a rifle shot than a bayonet or a buttstroke.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:48:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Shotgun would be my #1 pick.



Are you trying to piss Lumpy and I off this early in the morning?



Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.




I think thats a great idea, have Lumpy clear with an AR, and after that, you can tell us all about your shotgun. The question isn't whether a shotgun will work, it is a matter of what will work better.

Hollywood ballistics experts need not comment.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 10:59:37 AM EDT
tagged...

SJHTF
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:16:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Lancelot:
Most deployed soldier don't have pistols, shotguns, or carbines, they have rifles. You go to war with the army you have, and you clear buildings with the weapon you carry.






if all you have is a rifle, shortstock it.

if all you have is a bolt-action rifle, you better learn how to start moving and shooting with a bolt gun.

Handguns and carbines are great at rooms, but sometimes you're relegated to doing the deed with what you have in your hands. Hell, I seen guys moving pretty well with AK rifles even an M14 once...

Whatever you use, try to slap a light onto it somehow, even if it gets giggles. If it looks stupid, but works... then it's not stupid.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:41:00 AM EDT
Hell, I have an HBAR 20" for HD right now.

The carbine hiccuped on me one too many times recently for me to trust right now.

I don't think there's a problem (in my house anyways) with a 20".

The A2 stock might be a little long in this case, but I can still manuver it easily in our house.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:12:46 PM EDT
I learned to do CQC ops with M14's, very difficult, doable but difficult, however buttstroking would be far more effective.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 12:22:07 PM EDT
Back before wide scale issue of the M4/M68, the appoved technique was short stocking. We didn't turn the rifle 90 degrees, it was canted like for NBC firing. The school of thought at the time was that at CQB ranges, all you really needed was the front sight post. This technique might have been local to the 101st/Berlin Brigade, though.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:03:58 PM EDT
YES YOU CAN! You can clear a room with almost anything. Some firearms are easier to manuver then others, but the method of clearing a room IMO does not change despite your firearm.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:06:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:10:07 PM EDT
Two words..."Taco Bell"...I cleared a room with it just last week...I love mexican food but D@mn man. LOL!!!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:48:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By abnsfc:
Back before wide scale issue of the M4/M68, the appoved technique was short stocking. We didn't turn the rifle 90 degrees, it was canted like for NBC firing. The school of thought at the time was that at CQB ranges, all you really needed was the front sight post. This technique might have been local to the 101st/Berlin Brigade, though.

Mike



It was the method taught in the Marine Corps at least in the 80s and 90s, depending on the person the stock was anywhere between the top of the shoulder to the side of the arm.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 1:56:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 3:02:46 PM EDT by STLRN]

Originally Posted By KMFDM:
Well, the guys with M1 Garands, 98Ks, Mosins and Lee-Enfields figured out a way to do it in places like Aachen, Stalingrad, Berlin, Seoul, Arnhem etc.

Or "Full Length" M16's in Hue, Saigon etc.



Troops will adopt to what they have to work with. But the ability to adopt doesn't mean it the gear they had was ideal. At one time men fought with swords and muskets, they got the job done, but there was always a better way to do it.

Also comparing what we did in different wars isn't an apply to apply comparison. In the past wars, most men died in the streets and when entries occur there wasn't a concern with collateral damage. The emerging trend in modern MOUT when dealing with Jihadists is toward the enemy holding his fire until you enter the building in order to prevent pre-entry/battle field shaping occurring.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:03:17 PM EDT
After doing room clearing with a M249 SAW with 100 round box of ammo clearing with a rifle is easy. Even had collapasable buttstock and short barrel on it.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 2:52:05 PM EDT
Yeah. Clearing with a SAW plus IBA is a definite upper-body work out.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:07:45 PM EDT
I've seen people train and move quite fluidly with full length weapons, but I dont think I would do as well. In South America I've seen quite a few soldiers play out training scenarios with HK G3's and those things are beasts

I was always issued and trained with subguns and carbines. If you stuck a rifle in my hand I'd be lost on how to operate in tight conditions
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:13:27 PM EDT
Think about clearing with a FN FAL......
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 4:23:02 PM EDT
Originally from SWO_daddy


Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.



Please explain why a shotgun that has limited ammunition capacity...slow reloading design that at CQB range will pattern OObuck shot so tight that it looks like one bullet hole is extremely effective???? I really would like to know. no, make that WE ALL want to know,,, and don't forget to tell us what the "propper ammo" is also.. and how you plan to carry 200-300 rds for MOUT.

Oh let me guess. you read that it was like a "Room Broom" and one round killed everything in the room.....
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:15:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
Two words..."Taco Bell"...I cleared a room with it just last week...I love mexican food but D@mn man. LOL!!!



LOL!
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:49:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 5:51:08 PM EDT by Lumpy196]

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Shotgun would be my #1 pick.



Are you trying to piss Lumpy and I off this early in the morning?



Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.




Check your IM. I dont think you'll care what I think, but hey, at least I'll have it off my chest.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 5:54:03 PM EDT
Last month I completed some training at an army MOUT site. I used a standard M16A2. We went up ladders, down into tunnels, crawled into windows and cleared single rooms, multiple rooms and buildings. I've never felt the need to put the stock over my shoulder, it would feel pretty weird.

That said, I would have much rather had an M4 and a M68(Aimpoint) it's got a lot better sling, balances better and is much handier overall.

Shotguns in MOUT are only used for breaching locked doors or padlocks, they are slow to reload, have limited ammo resupply and compared to an M4 or M16-pretty poor firepower. The proper setup for a shotgun is pistol grip and a notched standoff attached to the barrel--no sights. This is the exact setup used by the army SRT school, Rangers, etc.

We had two heat casualties and let me tell you, it was really physically draining in 95 degree heat.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:18:04 PM EDT
I did room entry/CQB with a SAW. As long as the technnique is good the size of the weapon isn't too much of a factor. My preference for room entry is a short barrel M-4 or smg.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:35:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally from SWO_daddy


Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.



Please explain why a shotgun that has limited ammunition capacity...slow reloading design that at CQB range will pattern OObuck shot so tight that it looks like one bullet hole is extremely effective???? I really would like to know. no, make that WE ALL want to know,,, and don't forget to tell us what the "propper ammo" is also.. and how you plan to carry 200-300 rds for MOUT.

Oh let me guess. you read that it was like a "Room Broom" and one round killed everything in the room.....



The only rooms I need to clear are in my house, and I highly doubt that I will need more ammo than what fits in shotgun and handgun.

I don't go around playing soldier like some of you do. Get a life.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:36:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By SGB:
Shotgun would be my #1 pick.



Are you trying to piss Lumpy and I off this early in the morning?



Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.




Check your IM. I dont think you'll care what I think, but hey, at least I'll have it off my chest.



You're right, I don't give a shit. You some HSLD operator, or a wannabe?
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 6:52:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SWO_daddy:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Originally from SWO_daddy


Who cares what you two think? Shotguns are extremely effective at room clearing distances with the proper ammo.

If you don't think so, volunteer to take a buckshot round and call me in the morning.



Please explain why a shotgun that has limited ammunition capacity...slow reloading design that at CQB range will pattern OObuck shot so tight that it looks like one bullet hole is extremely effective???? I really would like to know. no, make that WE ALL want to know,,, and don't forget to tell us what the "propper ammo" is also.. and how you plan to carry 200-300 rds for MOUT.

Oh let me guess. you read that it was like a "Room Broom" and one round killed everything in the room.....



The only rooms I need to clear are in my house, and I highly doubt that I will need more ammo than what fits in shotgun and handgun.

I don't go around playing soldier like some of you do. Get a life.



The sound alone of it being racked will scare the inturder into coma no doubt! Just a .22 and a .38 will be sufficient
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 7:00:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/11/2005 7:00:56 PM EDT by TheStupid]
I thought I was stupid.


Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:

I had to do it one time only back in '85 when a friend and next door neighbor's house was burglarized. My neighbor requested me to help him clear his house because the police was running about two to four hours behind.

I had to use my 20-inch AR-15A2 rifle because all my pistols were not loaded except for one. I gave my neighbor my loaded revolver and told him to watch my six. We cleared his house and the police came four hours after he made his call, because they were busy in a murder case.

My father was an Army 11th Airborne in WWII and he have a M1 carbine with a M2 folding stock, but he was at work at the time.

Link Posted: 8/11/2005 9:51:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheStupid:
I thought I was stupid.


Originally Posted By Alpha-Romeo3:

I had to do it one time only back in '85 when a friend and next door neighbor's house was burglarized. My neighbor requested me to help him clear his house because the police was running about two to four hours behind.

I had to use my 20-inch AR-15A2 rifle because all my pistols were not loaded except for one. I gave my neighbor my loaded revolver and told him to watch my six. We cleared his house and the police came four hours after he made his call, because they were busy in a murder case.

My father was an Army 11th Airborne in WWII and he have a M1 carbine with a M2 folding stock, but he was at work at the time.



At that time I was not what you say I am, just young. I was into IPSC pistol combat shooting and CMP (was called DCM back then). I have been shooting since I was 5 y/o and had my first AR-15 SP1 in '71. I know how to clear rooms and slicing the pie of each entry.

If a neighbor ask me today to do it, I'll just say to wait for the cops.

You talk like what your name means, maybe you're a .
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:26:59 PM EDT
I've got a good answer for room clearing with your full size rifle, use your pistol. It is much faster to move, harder to take away/control of, and deadly enough.
Link Posted: 8/11/2005 11:56:12 PM EDT
Instead, why don't we just airstrike the room?

I tried holding my 20" in a "short-stocking" position and if you place the rifle upright you can still have full use of the sights. Maybe it was just my body size or the way I was holding it though.
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 1:34:09 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/12/2005 6:05:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
You guys do know that a pistol extended to firing position takes up the same length as a rifle/shotgun right?



Tweak,
I think they would rather talk about it rather than go out and try it. .
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