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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/29/2005 8:21:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:03:40 AM EDT by chp5]
Last weekend I attended a one day course with Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts Trident Concepts at South River Gun Club near Atlanta. The course was entitled Shooting on the Move – Carbine.

The class was on Sunday. On the previous two days, Jeff taught his Combative Carbine class. All the students, except myself, attended the Combative Carbine class, so this was their third consecutive day of training. Haven taken a number of carbine courses in the past and also having trained under Jeff before, Jeff allowed me to attend Shooting on the Move without attending the Combative Carbine course.

Personal Defense Training, Inc. (PDT) PDT sponsored the class and was responsible for bringing Jeff to Atlanta. PDT offers excellent classes of their own, as well as bringing world-class trainers to the southeast.

As you can imagine, Shooting on the Move focuses on close quarters shooting while moving. Our longest firing line was 35 yards – all the way down to 3 yards. Here’s the class description from Tricom’s web site:

“Armed with a carbine can you hit a moving threat who is actively trying to do you harm or even worse, can you hit a moving threat while you are trying to seek safety?
The Shooting on the Move, Carbine course is for those who have developed aggressive and effective carbine techniques with their primary shooting method already. This course will provide the individual with the instruction and the opportunity to engage targets on the move from a variety of conditions.

The course is divided into three equally important sections. The first section deals with basic movement drills in a static format to help build confidence with movement and effectively engaging threats. The fundamentals of movement are discussed with emphasis on mobility and stability using the chosen technique. Once established, we will force you to shoot quickly, but accurately.

The second section will focus on manipulating the weapon on the move. Exposing the individual to the immediate action drills for stoppages. Developing an automatic and reflexive response are the goal. Emphasis will be placed on thinking outside of the box while continuing to aggress/egress the threat zone. From there we progress to magazine exchanges on the move to include the combat and tactical reload.

The third section will focus on being more dynamic while moving. Realistic shooting techniques will be introduced that emphasize running the weapon reflexively. These drills will force the individual to utilize non-diagnostic techniques to maintain stability of movement and target awareness. Depending on the range facility there will be moving threats and then engaging moving threats while moving.

The standard tactics, techniques and procedures for this course are straightforward, but most important effective. They integrate cutting edge techniques of carbine skill for dynamically engaging threats on the move. From realistic street and special operations experiences these techniques are brought to you.

The goal of Shooting on the Move, Carbine is to build skills confidence for engaging threats while on the move. Offer insight into combative carbine skills under the pressure of movement during a variety of conditions. Develop motivation to practice and exposure to dynamic and tactical situations where movement is critical.”



We had an excellent class of about 16 students. The class was composed of 4 Marine NCO’s who were small arms instructors at Quantico, 3 Air Force security force Airmen (2 officers and 1 NCO, I believe), a couple of LE's and the balance were PFC’s (Proud F*cking Civilians – like myself).

We trained on both paper and cardboard targets – each requiring multiple COM hits on a 8 inch circle and/or heads shots on a 3-4” circle – all while moving. Many of the iterations were timed and time restrained. You had to both get your hits (not just shots) AND cover the required distance in the applicable time period. The closer ranges required faster movement and faster hits. The curriculum also required many clearance drills and reloads while moving and shooting (my hands still hurt).

We shot approximately 750 rounds in the one day class. After the class concluded, Jeff gave a short clinic on full auto fire to the active duty guys. What a blast!

This was an overall outstanding class that focused on reflexively manipulating and shooting a carbine in a CQB environment while moving - which IMO, is an invaluable real-world skill that few ever practice and very few master.

The cost of the course was $200 – and was worth far more.

It’s funny how many guys buy lots of guns, gadgets, optics, gear, etc., but when it comes to training, they either DON’T do it or skimp. None of that low drag, expensive, Ninja shit will make you a better shooter or fighter. Sell some of that crap and go invest it in training and practice – which, if done correctly, WILL make you a better shooter and fighter.


BTW - MODS- how about a section dedicated to training on AR15.com? Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:31:48 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chp5:
Last weekend I attended a one day course with Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts


Great review thanks for sharing!



It’s funny how many guys buy lots of guns, gadgets, optics, gear, etc., but when it comes to training, they either DON’T do it or skimp. None of that low drag, expensive, Ninja shit will make you a better shooter or fighter. Sell some of that crap and go invest it in training and practice – which, if done correctly, WILL make you a better shooter and fighter.

Big +1 couldn't agree with you more!



BTW - MODS- how about a section dedicated to training on AR15.com? Thanks.



Umm... You know there is such a section. Look under the 'General' tab.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:36:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:


BTW - MODS- how about a section dedicated to training on AR15.com? Thanks.



Umm... You know there is such a section. Look under the 'General' tab.



Wow - I've never looked under the General tab

I bet it would get a lot more trafffic if it was under the AR-15 tab.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:45:58 AM EDT
Great review. Thanks for that. Being a PFC myself, I can appreciate the info.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 8:55:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Great review. Thanks for that. Being a PFC myself, I can appreciate the info.



Perfect for Cleaning? Piece of F'n Crap?
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 9:20:08 AM EDT
Great review, sounds like you had a lot fun while learning a lot too!

Jeff's one of the best firearms instructors around it's good to see him getting more recognition around here.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 10:40:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 10:41:44 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By chp5:
It’s funny how many guys buy lots of guns, gadgets, optics, gear, etc., but when it comes to training, they either DON’T do it or skimp. .



+10,000

Thanks for the review.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:39:55 AM EDT
Thanks for the review. He is coming to my area in March and I was seriously thinking about attending his carbine class. I've heard good things about Jeff and I'm leaning more and more towards attending every day.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:44:18 AM EDT
This was my second class with Jeff and I'd highly recommend him.

If he's coming to your area and you don't have to travel (or travel very far), that's a cost and time saver. I'd do it.

Link Posted: 8/29/2005 12:39:47 PM EDT
a few of us scarfcommers(socal arfcom) are taking jeff's combat carbine and shoot on the move class in oct. will let ya know how it goes.

also a few of us scarfcommers took , bill murphy's night ops. class. very interesting class.
shooting at night and dusk conditions ia a freaking trip. good class, good instructors.

i'm pretty much done building up my mrp and gear, now 99% of my cahflow is going into classes. from all different instructors.

meat
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:04:35 PM EDT
CHP5 - thank you for the review.

I agree about the training thing vs owning a bunch of doo dads...

However, I have a question and I am not trying to hi - jack a thread - so if this is inappropriate - forgive me... and mods feel free to move this...

How many people have consistant access to a training range?

Since money is tight for most everyone and since I gather that only a few have access to a training range; maybe some suggestions can be made to allow folks to get some quality practice time in both in terms of dry fire and make the best use of the live fire time that they possibly can given the fact that they are shooting from a bench / firering line.

It's a thought.....
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:16:59 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:29:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Face_N_The_Crowd:
CHP5 - thank you for the review.

Since money is tight for most everyone and since I gather that only a few have access to a training range; maybe some suggestions can be made to allow folks to get some quality practice time in both in terms of dry fire and make the best use of the live fire time that they possibly can given the fact that they are shooting from a bench / firering line.

It's a thought.....



Great question! I know that many ranges don't let you move and shoot centerfire rifles. I belong to two different outdoor clubs for that very reason. The club that's closest to my house doesnt' let you move and shoot a centerfire rifle. The one that does is 1.5 hours drive - but that's OK.

I do think your question is worth starting another thread though. Two quick thoughts: (1) if your club allows you to shoot pistol caliber rounds in a pistol pit and move, then get a 9mm or .22 LR uppper and practice, and (2) dry fire. You can make your own miniture targets or buy some for dry fire.

Here's a link to print some targets: reduced IPSC target

Here's a link to some cardboard dryfire tagets I use and like: Dry fire kit
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 1:52:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
Good review...

I'll see if anyone else on Staff thinks the training section can be moved to the AR portion of the board.



That would be great. Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 2:13:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/29/2005 2:22:36 PM EDT by Duffy]
I've taken two of Jeff's classes, Combative Handgun and Shooting on the Move, both excellent classes. Jeff sure knows his business and is a hell of a guy to boot. In just about any training class people learn to keep just the absolute essentials to have on their weapons and shed the other crap in the first hour.
Sure I'm a gear queer, but based on various training classes, all of the gears I acquire have some basis in utility in the way I plan on using my firearms. For pistols, night sights and slides that don't have sharp edges. For rifles, it must be relatively light and have good ergonomics, a detachable light is also helpful.

A few lessons I learned:
The pre-release Magpul MIAD grip's texture is too shallow and does not offer as much resistance as a standard A2, thereby forcing the shooter to exert more force on the grip in order to hold it steady.

Heavy barrel sucks

Sharp edges on weapons should be smoothed out. On a Springfield 1911 there were so many of them, every time I did a loading/reload/clearing jams drill I risked having skin torn away or a chunk of flesh ripped out. When clearing a stuck dummy round from my AR15, I banged the LMT SOPMOD stock on the ground while pulling down on the charging handle, the sharp edges of the stock skinned my knuckle

Minor injuries, but I'd rather not bleed unncessarily.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:29:54 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 1:39:46 AM EDT
Great review, sounds like you guys had a great learning experience, I am also looking forward to taking Jeff's class in Oct.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:10:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 5:10:48 AM EDT by chp5]

Originally Posted By TonyF:

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I'll see if anyone else on Staff thinks the training section can be moved to the AR portion of the board.



It certainly doesn't matter to me but be advised that not all training is AR15 *centric*. Handgun, shotgun, contact defense, etc. Maybe that's why they placed in GD?



Tony - thanks for the reply. I agree with your comment and it's your call on where to put the training forum. I'm guessng you'd get more traffic under the AR15.com tab, however, that may or may not be a good thing. You are in a better place to make that call. Thanks.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:25:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:32:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I'll see if anyone else on Staff thinks the training section can be moved to the AR portion of the board.



It isn't broke, why frig with it?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 5:48:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By BookHound:
Thanks for the review. I've taken several classes at SRGC. Did you guys do any shooting in the "cowboy town"?



Nope, we were only on the training pit.

We do use the cowboy town for our quarterly 3 gun matches at South River. Great fun!
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 8:25:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By chp5:

Originally Posted By TonyF:

Originally Posted By new-arguy:
I'll see if anyone else on Staff thinks the training section can be moved to the AR portion of the board.



It certainly doesn't matter to me but be advised that not all training is AR15 *centric*. Handgun, shotgun, contact defense, etc. Maybe that's why they placed in GD?



Tony - thanks for the reply. I agree with your comment and it's your call on where to put the training forum. I'm guessng you'd get more traffic under the AR15.com tab, however, that may or may not be a good thing. You are in a better place to make that call. Thanks.



Can you rig this gizmo to cross-post?

How about just tacking a notice under AR-15 that the tactics and training forum is there and potentially relevant?
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 9:39:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 9:40:32 AM EDT by DOT-TridentConcepts]
We did have a great time in the class that whole weekend. There was fun had by all, plus a few good laughs.

I cannot emphasize it enough that the vast majority of training is static square range stuff, which hardly reflects reality. We hardly got up the training ladder with this movement class, but we are slowly making head way in the industry.

It never fails that we have folks with less than an optimum setup for what "they" need. A comment I am fond of saying is if this is not a duty weapon then I really don't care what you do with it or how it looks. If on the other hand it is a duty weapon then you might want to put less thought into extraneous stuff and more thought into mastering what you got.

Anyhow, it was a great time and I look forward to next year's visit to Atlanta. We still have a few more movemetn classes open this year, but they are going fast. Check our schedule for something near you, but right now we only have a pistol class in NH and a rifle class in CA.

Take care and stay safe.

Jeff Gonzales
Director of Training
Trident Concepts, LLC
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 1:34:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 1:39:19 PM EDT by Duffy]
I'm glad you're on this board Jeff
I'd like to take your carbine class next month, but it's on the same dates as the AZ MG shoot
But you can beat up Bruce for me
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 1:40:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 3:02:44 PM EDT by DOT-TridentConcepts]
Duffy,

Glad to be here. No worries on the October class, if you are in AZ this weekend we will be doing our CC1 class on September 3-4, 2005 in Phoenixhref=Trident Concepts, LLC
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 2:56:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 2:58:37 PM EDT by Buck_Naked]
I am signed up for Bruce Krells one day class on Oct. 9th, anyone want to give me an idea of where I might stand taking Jeff's class a few weeks later? Would this be a logical progression or might I be getting in over my head? I consider myself a competent shooter ( I am sure most people think that of themselves regardless of actual skill), but have had little structured training other than a one day Frontsite class...

Thanks!
Dave
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:04:58 PM EDT
BN,

Bruce will get you to a level that will be good for the class. He does a great job of making sure everyone is up to speed to participate in the class so we don't loose time on basic issues. I am sure you will do fine and if there is an issue he will tell you so you don' get in over your head.

Later,

Jeff Gonzales
Director of Training
Trident Concepts, LLC
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:12:00 PM EDT
Thank you sir!

Dave
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:12:33 PM EDT
jeff,
looking forward to your class in oct.
duffy turned us on to you and your class. took bruces class a couple of weeks ago.
is starting on fri and ending sun????

thanks in advance

meat
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 3:27:03 PM EDT
Anyone attending Jeffs Class have a lower receiver them might want to rent? I can provide an upper and eveything else, but my lowers are out of state...
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:00:12 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 9:36:18 PM EDT
Thanks for the review. What type of weapons and equipment related failures did you see the students experience- What brands were no-go, what if any did you see was ditched after the class? Jeff, please feel free to chime in on this or previous classes.

I really want to attend this class, but the stork's expected arrival is the same as the class's Day #1. If baby arrives early, then I'll fly in for this one if its not full. I just can't afford the tuition loss if the baby arrives before its too late to cancel.

BN- I got you covered for the lower.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 10:08:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/30/2005 10:19:00 PM EDT by chp5]

Originally Posted By Kisara:
Thanks for the review. What type of weapons and equipment related failures did you see the students experience- What brands were no-go, what if any did you see was ditched after the class? Jeff, please feel free to chime in on this or previous classes.

I really want to attend this class, but the stork's expected arrival is the same as the class's Day #1. If baby arrives early, then I'll fly in for this one if its not full. I just can't afford the tuition loss if the baby arrives before its too late to cancel.

BN- I got you covered for the lower.



There were Colt M-4s (both full auto and burst), some Bushmaster 16" carbines, an RRA or two and one older Eagle Arms (Coal Valley vintage). There may have been other makes, but that's what I saw on the rack.

The AF guy's M4's had a lot of trouble when firing full auto, but they had already fired 700+ rounds through them at that point. I saw multiple stoppages on the firing line, but it's hard to tell what the issue is unless the guy is right next to you. You just hope he can fix it quickly or step off the line so the group can continue training.

I shot my 16" flattop Bushmaster upper with an Aimpoint M2 on top of my Stag lower with a 6 position stock. It performed well.

For ammo, I used XM193 - and I had three ammo related problems. Specifically, I had two rounds that were extremely light and sounded like squibs. Each time, I unloaded and stepped off the line to make sure the bullet wasn’t lodged in the barrel – which it wasn’t (thankfully)– but I didn’t want to chance it. Bad things happen when you send a hot projectile down the barrel that’s plugged with a squib.

I also had one round that failed to fire and got stuck in the chamber. Slamming the buttstock on my thigh while pulling the charging handle backwards did the trick. I inserted a fresh mag and continued without incident. I guess that’s why it’s XM – 193!

The Aimpoint was the most popular optic. There were also 2 or 3 Eotechs and a handful of irons. I didn't see any magnified glass, but for CQB, magnification is not required and can be a hinderance (at least to me). Other than some lights and vertical fore grips, I didn’t see anything else hanging off the students’ carbines.
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