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Posted: 3/17/2005 8:02:15 AM EDT
I am working on ordering some supplies to start reloading this round. In looking at bullets, they are listed as 45/70 cal and 458 mag cal with both having .458 inch diameter. Will either work in reloading the .458 SOCOM?
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 10:09:00 AM EDT
Yes they will.
.458 SOCOM, .45-70, .458 Mag all use the same diameter bullets. I have had very good luck with bulk packaged Remington 300 gr. JHP bullets from Midway.
I use 35.5 gr. of Winchester 296 powder, in Starline cases, with CCI Large Pistol Magnum Primers. In my 16" .458 carbine, they do just under 1900 ft/sec, and shoot 10 shot groups at 100 yds. that can be covered with a half dollar. If I do my part that is.
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 3:49:49 PM EDT
Just started reloading my 458 Socom and use the Midway Remington 300's. Given a load of 35 gr of Lil Gun, but seems a little too hot for my 24" upper(2192fps) and dropped to 34 gr for 2090fps. Haven't tried accuracy yet, but also trying 37.5 H-4227 for 2030 fps. Tried 38 gr. of the 4227 but seems harsh recoil but group was 1/4" high by 1.25" wide (20 mph crosswind). Was given another load of 44gr of RE7 but doesn't seem very accurate in my gun. Three will go into 1/2" but the other two will open the group to 5". Oc course, Disclamer, these loads appear to be safe in my gun, but don't warrant them to be safe in yours.
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 4:02:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2005 4:38:36 PM EDT by chiefal]
for anyone using a dillon 650, will the 458 mag conversion kit work? Am wondering what brass the 458 was formed from.

Hey another thing, some usgi mags that work fine with the ar-15's tend to open up with the 458 rounds where they won't go in the mag well. Any suggestions on the best mags to use? I see soon there will be some for the 499 that should work, but any suggestions for now?

thanks

Alton Swinney
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 8:43:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By chiefal:
for anyone using a dillon 650, will the 458 mag conversion kit work? Am wondering what brass the 458 was formed from.

Hey another thing, some usgi mags that work fine with the ar-15's tend to open up with the 458 rounds where they won't go in the mag well. Any suggestions on the best mags to use? I see soon there will be some for the 499 that should work, but any suggestions for now?

thanks

Alton Swinney



Talk to Garry Kieft (spelling?) at Dillon, he can get you set up for a .458 SOCOM kit for the Dillon. It uses different shell holder than the .458 Win Mag so don't think that one would work

SOCOM brass has its origins in .50 AE brass (longer, necked down, and with a different rim)

I have not had the problem of mags "bulging" with the SOCOM with any of my mags, including the Thermolds. I put 10 in a 30-rounder, no issue. Can't give a preferred mag as I never encountered one, all seem to work, even ancient Parsons that escaped from "Da Hood" (Ft. Hood) by their appearance.
Link Posted: 3/17/2005 8:48:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rockrat:
Just started reloading my 458 Socom and use the Midway Remington 300's. Given a load of 35 gr of Lil Gun, but seems a little too hot for my 24" upper(2192fps) and dropped to 34 gr for 2090fps.



What is the "too hot" based on, the velocity or things like primer flattening and base expansion? Reason I ask is because the velocity seems right in line with a 24" and Lil Gun (the only other 24 that I am aware of is the one at CorBon .... it was the very first one, and it clocked 2100 with a 300 gr but no real load development, just one powder was tested at that time)

I have test loads of the Hornady 300 gr HP and Lil Gun sitting ready. I need to get some time to get to the range with the F1 and see how they do. The .475 Tremor with a 230 gr bullet supported 52.0 gr Lil Gun (!!!!) and clocked over 2500 fps with a 16" barrel ....
Link Posted: 3/18/2005 4:52:56 AM EDT
Thanks for answering the questions guys. To throw in my two cents worth, I have had no problems with any of my clips. I have used a John Masen 9rnd (I got 3 in her), and some old USGI's I grabbed out of the bin at the local gun shop (20 -held 8-, 30-held 13-, and 40-held 16-). No problems with any of them. As far as reloading powder goes, I was thinking of testing some loads with Hodgdon H1000. Will have to work up the load, but I have had good success with this load in 7mmSTW.
Oh, and to Marty @ Teppo and the guys at Kastle, the upper shoots great. Have not gotten her at 100yrd yet, but at 50 - she was tacking nickle sized groups of 5 with CorBon boxed ammo. And the power - wow. Pissed off the range master. I had him bore sight the gun for me and afterwards I went out to shoot. The first shot hung far right - straight into the target post. I guess with other shots people had placed into this post, mine was the last straw when it splintered in half throwing pieces of 2x4 about 10 feet in the air. Needless to say, I got a lot of questions about my 'big' gun. And after a box of ammo getting it in the center - I had a lot of questions about his bore sighting.
Link Posted: 3/25/2005 10:58:45 PM EDT
Can anyone give me the dimensions of the bullet. Max Case length, max bullet length, mins, etc. Want to load some spitzers, but want to mic them to be sure they are correct.
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 4:06:06 AM EDT
Bullet diameter .458
Max Case length 1.600
Trim length 1.590
Max cartridge overall length 2.260 (or whatever will feed reliably in your magazines and not jam the bullets into the lands)

The bulk packed Remington 300 and 405gn bullets from MidwayUSA are probably the best deal going, and can be pushed harder than the plated Berrys or Rainier. My cases don't stretch much, needing trimmed on average about every 3rd firing/sizing. I have cases now that are not loaded to max, but have 10 loads on them.

RL7 start loads
300gn=42gn
350gn=39gn
405gn=37gn
500gn=26gn

I put mine into the 45/70 boxes from Berrys.

Tom
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 5:28:49 AM EDT
Thanks for the stats. I ordered 200 bullets from Midway (for anyone that does that know - the 300gr JHPs are 14.95 per 100) and I ordered 100 Brass ( also from midway - around 55.00). Got some Barnes X 300grs to load as well. So far, all has gone well. Have had no problems with my Lee Dies. When I ordered the dies, I ordered a Lee seating plug ($2.00) for a 44 mag. I took the seating plug out of my 458 Set and put the 44mag in. It seats the FMJ's extremely well. I will change it back to the original 458 plug when I do the Spitzers.
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 5:38:05 AM EDT
Oh, the 44mag seating plug from Lee - its part number is SB1318.

As far as the complaint about the Lee Dies scratching the cases, I had a couple of instances - 5 times out of the 140 rounds that I loaded last night. It started to do it when I was seating/crimping and did not start till after 60 rounds. When the first two happend back to back - I ran some case lube up into the die and had no problem from there on out as long as I made sure the cases where lubed and that I was not putting any pressure on the cases forward or backward when guiding them up into the die. (Just FYI)
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 11:15:31 AM EDT
I have a set of dies from CH4D. The sizing die was done in TiNi and does put some very light scratches on the case/neck here and there, but nothing major. I have yet to make some actual loads however, waiting on a few parts from Marty to finalize the 458 project.

Couple things I found out though....The shell holders #25 from CH4D would not work for me. They were way to big and let the cases pull right out of the holder with little effort. I would told to go ahead and send them back in for a refund - might have been a fluke on the two I got, but two of them were messed up. A #3 from RCBS works just fine (I think thats the .45 ACP shell holder). Also my pacific hornady .45 expander die worked fine for expanding/belling the case mouth slightly to insert the bullets.

Thanks for the info on the seating plug!
Link Posted: 3/26/2005 6:06:02 PM EDT
The shell holder I got with my Lee set was too small. Called Lee and they said it should work and have never had a problem. I used the an RCBS #3 as well with no problems. No I just have to figure out which shell plate will work best with my progressive. But, I loaded 140 rounds last night in my single stage. No problems at all once I got the crimp set right.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 12:20:19 PM EDT
Guys, I too am just getting into reloading my 458 SOCOM, has anyone seen a data table with all the loads worked up put into an excell spread sheet? if not I might have to make one up given everyone would need to submit to me their work etc. New question, have you guys found that the stem on the lee dies is to long for the 300 grain bullets?
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 5:11:31 PM EDT
Lee Dies. Man I threw a Donald Duck fit last night around midnight with my dies. As far as seating the flat nose/FMJ/ RN bullets, the 44 seating plug worked great. I loaded some 300gr Barne's X last night and put the spitzer plug that came with the dies on them. Hell, it would not seat the bullets deep enough. Like 0.30 of an inch off. I ended up seating them with my 44 mag plug as well and it worked fine.

Load table. Well, I asked that question a few weeks ago and I got all kinds of info. Go to search and put .458 and search the last 30 days. Go through the treads and you will find all the info you ever need.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 5:12:45 PM EDT
http://www.mylittlespark.com/ar15/458Socom.html

Do not know how to make the link hot. But cut and paste and there is all of you load data.
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 5:16:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/27/2005 5:19:57 PM EDT by VAPORTRAIL]
I think Marty has data in spreadsheet form, or has the link to it.
ETA: doc-rock has the link I was thinking of posted.
Thanks
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 6:41:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By doc-rock:
458 Reloading incl Marty's WAY OLD original spreadsheet

Do not know how to make the link hot. But cut and paste and there is all of you load data.



HOT
Link Posted: 3/27/2005 6:45:39 PM EDT
Umm, when the primer falls out before the case comes out, that is bad right?

It would appear 47 gr of Lil Gun is a LITTLE too much

Good thing I have a Mauser 98 in .458 SOCOM to test these things ....

Link Posted: 3/27/2005 7:01:00 PM EDT
Marty--Mainly primer flattening and start of cratering. Seems like the gun has a real tight neck which may contribute to early indications of limits for at least my gun.
Link Posted: 3/28/2005 6:40:57 PM EDT
Rockrat -

Sounds fair. I assume yours is a Tromix and a tighter neck is not unexpected (I have the carbide reamer, the others are all subject to wear, which can lead to tighter necks)
Link Posted: 3/28/2005 8:55:51 PM EDT
Marty,
That takedown Mauser is very cool. Is it a very difficult conversion to do? I would be most interested in a rifle of this type. Any information on it would be most appreciated.
Link Posted: 3/28/2005 8:59:28 PM EDT
I would be willing to pay for a break down mauser like that. Would want a longer barrel, but it is nice.
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 12:53:40 AM EDT

Originally Posted By doc-rock:
I was thinking of testing some loads with Hodgdon H1000. Will have to work up the load, but I have had good success with this load in 7mmSTW.


doc,
7mmSTW is a VERY different cartridge with a significantly different expansion factor than 458 SOCOM. H1000 is WAAAYYYY too slow of a powder for 458 SOCOM.
I had some H4350 around. VERY LOW velocity, and it left significant unburnt powder EVERYWHERE. The gas tube blew powder into my mag. The bench was covered, the 3rd round wouldn't chamber because of unburnt powder....
In my experience, anything slower than about 4895 (with extreme compression) is too slow for 458 SOCOM...
458 Socom is more like a short 45-70, or a long Magnum pistol cartridge. Powders that work in these cartridges are usually good choices for 458 SOCOM.

ANY .458 diameter can be loaded in the SOCOM. When choosing between 45/70 and 458 Win Mag, be sure to remember that the Socom produces velocity closer to 45/70 than the Magnum. An expanding bullet designed for 458 Win Mag will NOT likely expand at Socom velocities...

Please note that the velocities and powder charges posted in the spreadsheet from ME were developed in an upper I no longer own. When I tried these same loads in my NEW custom upper, they produced significant pressure signs. I have had to re-work most of those loads, and reduce them significantly. BE CAREFUL!!!

Stay Safe!
Sponge
Link Posted: 4/4/2005 6:01:38 PM EDT
Yeah, after careful research - I deciding against experimenting with slow burn-rate powders. H110 and 4227 are what I have used so far. Have not had a chance to fire the rounds yet, but will get to in about a week or so. Have another build I am doing at the moment and when that is done, I will spend a solid day at the range.
Link Posted: 4/5/2005 8:32:02 PM EDT
PM me, and maybe we can get together at the range (I live in the DFW area). I haven't shot my 458 this year...But I am starting to get that itch...

Sponge
Link Posted: 4/5/2005 9:06:43 PM EDT
I live ini Dallas wit a 458 SOCOM and would love to make a range day with yall if your interested
Link Posted: 4/6/2005 7:02:18 PM EDT
As of today, my range day next Tuesday is getting demished to a range morning for an hour or so and may even get cancelled all together in leu of a plinking day that next weekend. That is the breaks with the job. I will have more free time coming up at the end of the month and into May - besides it will be much nicer weather then.
Link Posted: 4/10/2005 3:59:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/10/2005 4:50:43 PM EDT
does anyone have a good load data for 350 jacked soft points, I cant find any load data for that anywhere out on the "net"
Link Posted: 4/10/2005 5:01:16 PM EDT
All loads use Hornady 350 JSP (jacketed round nose with lead exposed) bullet #4502. All group measurements shown are from a 16" barrelled rifle, using a 12x scope at approx 80 yards.

38.5 RL7: .76" 4 shots
38.0 AA1680: .80 six shots
34.2 H110: .92 six shots

Did not take velocity. Sorry.

Lee
Link Posted: 4/14/2005 7:20:47 AM EDT
Good morning gentlemen, I'm brand new to this site and have been following your posts and find it very informative. I just got my SOCOM and as CORBON is backordered, I will be loading up a batch this weekend using the data from Spongeman66 and Marty. Just have a couple of little details to ask as this is my first venture into reloading with brand new equipment. Is everyone using large pistol magnum primers and if so why? I thought the 50AE was the cartridge the SOCOM was based on and the 2 books I have, regular large pistol primers are correct for that round. Also, is there anyone in the people's republic of California shooting this that may want to get together to throw some lead? I have access to a private range that goes to 800 meters. And also, if any of you are only shooting factory ammo and don't have anyone that wants to buy or trade your once fired brass, let me know. Thanks for your time gents.
Link Posted: 4/14/2005 8:16:42 AM EDT
Mag primers - well we are shoving more powder in the case than the 50AE uses and you want to be able to burn all of the powder. That is my best answer. Marty would probably be them man to email about it since he developed the round.
Link Posted: 4/14/2005 9:26:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Cold:
does anyone have a good load data for 350 jacked soft points, I cant find any load data for that anywhere out on the "net"



Check about 1/3rd the way down on Page 1.

Tom
Link Posted: 4/14/2005 9:40:35 AM EDT
Thanks for the advice. I'll have a report of what i did next week....unless I blow myself up, then it may take a little longer.
Link Posted: 4/22/2005 6:47:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/22/2005 6:49:38 AM EDT by VEPRguy1]
Well, I shot my SOCOM for the first time, and WOW. About 8 years ago, my wife made me sell my '71 Cougar because she said I was spending more time under it than her, I can see that comming for this gun too. I made up 100 rnds of 300gn JHPs(50 Hornady, 50Rem) light loaded with 34.11gn of IMR4227 and Win mag pistol primers. COL was 2.03. Functioning was great, accuracy, fine, I could hit a 4'x4' steel plate at 422 meters 5 out of 10 times in the offhand with my little 4x VMOZ scope, and chase a bowling pin from 50 to 100 m fairly quickly. (sorry, I don't have a chrony yet) My only issue is there was a lot of powder left in the barrel and the bolt was filthy. After 70 rnds is this about what you are all seeing too, or could you reccomend a cleaner powder? I was going to go with H110 next. Any other suggestions would be welcome. Additionally, I used no crimp, are ya'll crimping? How much and what is it doing for you? Also, is this in fact a neck sized 50AE and has anyone tried resizing their own? It is a lot cheaper.
Link Posted: 4/22/2005 8:05:30 PM EDT
H4227 appears to be a hair slow. H110 works well, burns complete but tends to give lots of flash. I have really taken a liking to Reloder 7. I am working with Lil Gun but thus far the results have been less than superb, but they may be related to other issues with the upper and not due to the ammo.

I crimp just a little bit (my CH dies are set up to crimp at the top of the seating stroke)

No joy on the .50AE route ...

.50AE - 1.29" long, 0.514" diameter rim
.458 SOCOM - 1.575" long, 0.473" diameter rim

Marty
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 12:30:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2005 12:32:59 PM EDT by doc-rock]
I loaded some 300gr Hp (Midway bulk Remingtons) with H110 - not much flash at all out of my 20". Shot great. See pics for my grouping from 100 yards after 20rounds (the large hole in the head was .458, the others are all 50AE and 223). Have had some feeding problems with both Corbon loaded ammo and my own. In fact, I think less problems with my own ammo. Have not tried my spitzer Barnes X's yet, but want to see how they shread a hog.





Link Posted: 4/23/2005 2:28:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:
I have really taken a liking to Reloder 7. I am working with Lil Gun but thus far the results have been less than superb, but they may be related to other issues with the upper and not due to the ammo.



+1. When H110 and Lil Gun didn't immediately show as good as results as the RL7 BASIC loads, I just stayed with the RL7 and tweaked them for my GP gun. I posted them on page 1 of this thread. Thanks, Marty, for sharing them with me.



Originally Posted By MartytW:
I crimp just a little bit (my CH dies are set up to crimp at the top of the seating stroke)



I use the Lee crimper and set it fairly stiff, about a .020 crimp. Haven't had any problems with set back at all with about 2K rounds through my GP upper so far.

Tom
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 4:50:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MartytW:
H4227 appears to be a hair slow. H110 works well, burns complete but tends to give lots of flash. I have really taken a liking to Reloder 7. I am working with Lil Gun but thus far the results have been less than superb, but they may be related to other issues with the upper and not due to the ammo.

I crimp just a little bit (my CH dies are set up to crimp at the top of the seating stroke)

No joy on the .50AE route ...

.50AE - 1.29" long, 0.514" diameter rim
.458 SOCOM - 1.575" long, 0.473" diameter rim

Marty



Flash is not a problem if you picked up a .458 Vortex!!!

Spooky
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 9:00:25 PM EDT
Thanks guys. I just did a batch of 300s with H110 and can't wait for range day. I got the birdcage flash hider and was shooting at dusk and had almost no flash. We'll see how the H110 does. Thanks for all the help Marty. I'll check out the RL7 next. I had a little extracting/feeding issue on my first few rounds, but a heavy coat of CLP fixed that. As it breaks in I'll dry it out some. I was using Tuff Glide only and it was a little dry. I don't think I'll ever shoot my 5.56upper again, I'm addicted.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 9:03:18 PM EDT
She is addictive alright. I put a 100 rounds or so through mine a week ago and I had a skeleton stock bruise that felt like I had just spent an entire week in the goose blind with my 10gauge. Damn it is a fun gun. Maybe I will grease mine up a little more and see if it feeds better.
Link Posted: 4/24/2005 10:05:11 AM EDT
Yea, I love the big guns, but as I have gotten older I have become a bit of a recoil wuss. I threw a butler creek slip on recoil pad and it was fine. I am gonna keep my regular "plinker" loads light, and some heavy ones for when the commies invade or someone else wants to shoot it.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 10:42:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/17/2005 10:52:42 AM EDT by BrianZ]
I had the same problem with Lee, they told me it was "Custom made". I guess that's why it was in their surplus bin!!?? Their #12 fits the 50 Beowulf perfectly. They live right down the road from me and I'm thinking of taking it all back. Their specs for the 458 can't be the same as the Starline brass I purchased. Everything sticks in the die no matter whether I use Imperial wax or Mobil 1(it was an experiment) and yes I too switched to an RCBS #3 shell holder.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 11:52:33 AM EDT
Are you lubing the inside of the neck also? I have a set of CH4D dies and the sizing die is TiNi coated along with the expander button....I still have to lube the cases to get it to operate fairly smooth. If I dont lube the inside of the neck it is still rough going, so I use a graphite based lube for the neck and all is smooth then.
Link Posted: 5/17/2005 4:48:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ctkelly:
Are you lubing the inside of the neck also? I have a set of CH4D dies and the sizing die is TiNi coated along with the expander button....I still have to lube the cases to get it to operate fairly smooth. If I dont lube the inside of the neck it is still rough going, so I use a graphite based lube for the neck and all is smooth then.



Me, I'm using the CH4D original dies, steel, and purchased used. I smoothed them out with some flitz on a bore mop mirror smooth. I lube by placing all my brass in a box, and giving it a few shots with Hornady 1 shot, tossing it, and squirting again, repeat 2-3 times. Plenty gets in the case mouths. No chatter and no problems. Tumble clean for about 5 minutes in a special bag of corn cob that I use for removing lube only.

I do not like the Lee sizing die for a variety of reasons, but the seater (with a different seater plug) and the crimp die both have their uses.

Tom
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 6:07:05 AM EDT
Cost question.

What you guess the cost of 20 rounds of SOCOM would cost if you loaded yourself vs Corbon cost of about $30-40 per 20 rds. I know costs can vary depending on your material cost (bullets bought in volume and such..). I'm just looking for a basic costc omparision NOT including loading equip.

I am ordering a 458 upper and, while I dont reload now, due to the limited number of fact loads avail for SOCOM I am considering getting into loading. I'd kinda wanted to for awhile.....
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 8:49:02 AM EDT
The cost savings cannot be overstated. I ran it through the Lee calculator and using brand new brass each time it would be $ .88 depending on the load. After that, reuse the brass and it gets about $.28 per round. This is with component costs from Midway, in the lowest quantity and the expensive cost of powder by the pound at my local shop. Buy bigger, and save more. If you want to shoot this round and are not rock-star rich, reload. My cheapo Lee setup put me back less than $200 with my first order of components too. Compare that to $1.40 with shipping and all from Corbon, if they even have them.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 4:35:57 PM EDT
Pretty on-the-money. I figured that I was running .85 to .90 per round with new brass, and around .30 per round reusing the brass.
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 5:56:32 PM EDT
Thats substantial savings over $1.75 and up per round for factory Corbon ammo!
Link Posted: 5/23/2005 7:59:27 PM EDT
Try loading some of the esoteric stuff, I loaded up some specialty ammo for a GSA firm to test against some equipment, the 20 projectiles ALONE cost me $140 .... yup, no typo there. Makes CorBon seem cheap. We may have one or two developments that could end up improving availability and lowering price. Stay tuned.
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