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Posted: 5/14/2018 8:25:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2018 8:30:43 AM EDT by TacticalTavorian]
Hey guys. I’m considering replacing my Leupold DeltaPoint Pro with a normal, fully housed red dot sight for my AR15. I really like my DPP, but have thought may going with a standard red dot like an MRO or a Holosun/Primary Arms/Vortex might be better for a toughness factor. I just wanted to get advice with this decision. I feel like if the rifle were to ever drop (especially on the optic) that maybe a fully housed red dot would withstand that kind of abuse better. Thoughts?

And then there’s also the fact of the actual light source being enclosed inside the body as well that seems to be like a better idea.

From my research it seems that fully housed red dots are preferred for the reasons stated above. I know Leupold makes a great, quality product ... so that’s not the issue. It’s more about the durability and performance of these 2 different styles red dots.
Link Posted: 5/14/2018 8:29:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2018 8:30:41 AM EDT by Creature]
Petsonally, I think your worries are misplaced.

Link Posted: 5/14/2018 8:31:22 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Creature:
Petsonally, I think your worries are misplaced.

https://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/12/63/91/01/adjust10.jpg
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How come?

Nice setup.
Link Posted: 5/14/2018 10:22:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/14/2018 10:28:28 AM EDT by Creature]
Because the DPP, and the RMR in particular, are plenty tough enough to stand up to most normal abuse. Granted, I am not dropping my rifle from a helicopter or shooting it with birdshot. But I certainly don't baby my DPP-equipped rifle and it has seen more than it's fair share of being tossed around. My DPP has taken a hit or two (or three) and the glass has not cracked or the shroud shown so much as a dent...though it is scuffed up pretty well cosmetically.

As for the emitter tunnel getting debris or water inside of it, I have yet to have an issue...and as I have said in previous posts, I used it extensively enough in rain and even in a snow squall with no ill affects that I am not particularly concerned with that possibility. I have also used it in really dry and dusty courses...as well as rolled around with it in wet, knee-high grasses. Zero issues.

My rifle was previously equipped with an Aimpoint H1, and after removing it in favor of the DPP, that Aimpoint is still sitting unused on my workbench. I don't see it going back on my rifle anytime soon. I am a huge fan of the Aimpoint, but I am a true believer in the DPP/RMR on the fighting carbine concept. I think they have a lot to offer when compared to traditional reddots...and I think they will gain favor as they continue to evolve.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 3:44:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2018 3:52:02 AM EDT by gunsandgear]
The DPP's main weak point is it's inability to withstand impacts, specifically impacts to the top of the optic body, without the glass being damaged. Other less severe weak points are the brightness adjustment method and battery life. Apparently the DPP's optic/glass is less resilient because Trijicon has a patent on the shape of the RMR, which is extremely effective in mitigating damage from impacts to the optic body.

In this video, Aaron Cowan from Sage Dynamics breaks a DPP by intentionally abusing it, but discusses what happened and why. I can't recall who posted them, but there at least two other reviews where the same problem arose. So take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, I have owned multiple RMRs and multiple DPPs. I still have all my DPPs and the only RMR I kept is for a mount that can not accommodate a DPP. Like all Leupold products, I believe the DPP has a lifetime warranty so I'm not really worried about it breaking. That being said, I do not carry a gun for work but if I did and it had to wear one of these two optics I would lean towards the RMR just because it's more of a tank. So to conclude this long-winded answer, a quality "standard red dot" will likely be much "tougher" than a DPP, but an RMR will likely hold its own against quality non-reflex red dot optics (in terms of durability).

Hopefully this helps.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 7:12:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2018 7:14:59 AM EDT by Creature]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By gunsandgear:
The DPP's main weak point is it's inability to withstand impacts, specifically impacts to the top of the optic body, without the glass being damaged. Other less severe weak points are the brightness adjustment method and battery life. Apparently the DPP's optic/glass is less resilient because Trijicon has a patent on the shape of the RMR, which is extremely effective in mitigating damage from impacts to the optic body.

In this video, Aaron Cowan from Sage Dynamics breaks a DPP by intentionally abusing it, but discusses what happened and why. I can't recall who posted them, but there at least two other reviews where the same problem arose. So take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, I have owned multiple RMRs and multiple DPPs. I still have all my DPPs and the only RMR I kept is for a mount that can not accommodate a DPP. Like all Leupold products, I believe the DPP has a lifetime warranty so I'm not really worried about it breaking. That being said, I do not carry a gun for work but if I did and it had to wear one of these two optics I would lean towards the RMR just because it's more of a tank. So to conclude this long-winded answer, a quality "standard red dot" will likely be much "tougher" than a DPP, but an RMR will likely hold its own against quality non-reflex red dot optics (in terms of durability).

Hopefully this helps.
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I would offer these counter points to the 'weaknesses' you brought up.

Brightness adjustment: unless you're using NODs, literally a non-issue. Especially if you're using a TACLIGHT. Set it and forget it.

Battery life: the DPP motion sensing "instant on" takes care of any battery life concerns. Unlike the RMR which is ALWAYS on, the DPP is only on when the rifle is picked up. And it is FAST. I have yet to beat the motion sensor. I also prefer to conserve battery life rather than rely on the battery's actual life, not the "advertised" run time, so I prefer the motion sensor approach. Trijicon claims 5 years "always on" runtime, but as everyone knows, that is actually dependent on the quality of the battery itself. My DPP is still on the original battery which is over four years old. Battery access on the DPP is also far superior to the RMR ridiculous design.

As for durability, I continue to beat the snot out of my DPP. It gots tossed into the bed of my truck, knocked into doorframes and against barricades without thought...zero issues. I think Cowan's drop test is a bit far fetched. But it will remain a valid concern until Trijicon's design patent expires. Until then, I will take a reasonable amount of care with my DPP, keeping in the back of my mind that I can always rely on Leupold's lifetime guarantee.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 8:55:46 PM EDT
I've been seeing a lot of DPP equipped guns getting picked up, or drawn and not turning on.

I replace batteries once a year anyways.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 11:18:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2018 11:34:53 PM EDT by MS556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Creature:
I would offer these counter points to the 'weaknesses' you brought up.

Brightness adjustment: unless you're using NODs, literally a non-issue. Especially if you're using a TACLIGHT. Set it and forget it.

Battery life: the DPP motion sensing "instant on" takes care of any battery life concerns. Unlike the RMR which is ALWAYS on, the DPP is only on when the rifle is picked up. And it is FAST. I have yet to beat the motion sensor. I also prefer to conserve battery life rather than rely on the battery's actual life, not the "advertised" run time, so I prefer the motion sensor approach. Trijicon claims 5 years "always on" runtime, but as everyone knows, that is actually dependent on the quality of the battery itself. My DPP is still on the original battery which is over four years old. Battery access on the DPP is also far superior to the RMR ridiculous design.

As for durability, I continue to beat the snot out of my DPP. It gots tossed into the bed of my truck, knocked into doorframes and against barricades without thought...zero issues. I think Cowan's drop test is a bit far fetched. But it will remain a valid concern until Trijicon's design patent expires. Until then, I will take a reasonable amount of care with my DPP, keeping in the back of my mind that I can always rely on Leupold's lifetime guarantee.
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Originally Posted By Creature:
Originally Posted By gunsandgear:
The DPP's main weak point is it's inability to withstand impacts, specifically impacts to the top of the optic body, without the glass being damaged. Other less severe weak points are the brightness adjustment method and battery life. Apparently the DPP's optic/glass is less resilient because Trijicon has a patent on the shape of the RMR, which is extremely effective in mitigating damage from impacts to the optic body.

In this video, Aaron Cowan from Sage Dynamics breaks a DPP by intentionally abusing it, but discusses what happened and why. I can't recall who posted them, but there at least two other reviews where the same problem arose. So take that for what it's worth.

On the other hand, I have owned multiple RMRs and multiple DPPs. I still have all my DPPs and the only RMR I kept is for a mount that can not accommodate a DPP. Like all Leupold products, I believe the DPP has a lifetime warranty so I'm not really worried about it breaking. That being said, I do not carry a gun for work but if I did and it had to wear one of these two optics I would lean towards the RMR just because it's more of a tank. So to conclude this long-winded answer, a quality "standard red dot" will likely be much "tougher" than a DPP, but an RMR will likely hold its own against quality non-reflex red dot optics (in terms of durability).

Hopefully this helps.
I would offer these counter points to the 'weaknesses' you brought up.

Brightness adjustment: unless you're using NODs, literally a non-issue. Especially if you're using a TACLIGHT. Set it and forget it.

Battery life: the DPP motion sensing "instant on" takes care of any battery life concerns. Unlike the RMR which is ALWAYS on, the DPP is only on when the rifle is picked up. And it is FAST. I have yet to beat the motion sensor. I also prefer to conserve battery life rather than rely on the battery's actual life, not the "advertised" run time, so I prefer the motion sensor approach. Trijicon claims 5 years "always on" runtime, but as everyone knows, that is actually dependent on the quality of the battery itself. My DPP is still on the original battery which is over four years old. Battery access on the DPP is also far superior to the RMR ridiculous design.

As for durability, I continue to beat the snot out of my DPP. It gots tossed into the bed of my truck, knocked into doorframes and against barricades without thought...zero issues. I think Cowan's drop test is a bit far fetched. But it will remain a valid concern until Trijicon's design patent expires. Until then, I will take a reasonable amount of care with my DPP, keeping in the back of my mind that I can always rely on Leupold's lifetime guarantee.
I agree. I have two DPPs now. I've abused the first one, including accidentally dropping the rifle it was on upper receiver down on a concrete floor from bench height, striking directly on the DPP's spring steel hood. Ugly scrape, but no damage to the DPP.

FWIW, there is an air gap between the spring steel hood or shell and the magnesium frame of the glass. The spring steel will have to compress enough to close that gap before transferring force to the glass. And, because that outer hood is steel, I was able to easily repair the cosmetic scrape with ordinary sporting goods store cold blue.

The optic is duty grade. I run a second one on my HD carbine. Keep the dot (7.5 MOA triangle in this case) set high to run with the momentary on weapon light.

Link Posted: 5/16/2018 11:24:22 PM EDT
Some of those unenclosed reddots like the RMR are extremely durable.

The main issue is with inclement weather and debris imo.
Get some snow/mud at the projection origination then the sight goes down.
Link Posted: 5/16/2018 11:34:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/16/2018 11:36:02 PM EDT by MS556]
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Originally Posted By BarrettBoy:
Some of those unenclosed reddots like the RMR are extremely durable.

The main issue is with inclement weather and debris imo.
Get some snow/mud at the projection origination then the sight goes down.
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Until you shake it once. I get what you are saying, but its very easy to clear that recessed channel where the diode resides.
Link Posted: 5/17/2018 10:15:24 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By 03RN:
I've been seeing a lot of DPP equipped guns getting picked up, or drawn and not turning on.

I replace batteries once a year anyways.
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How many is "a lot" exactly?
Link Posted: 5/17/2018 1:35:07 PM EDT
Ya'll got me curious about rain getting into the open RMR. Since it's raining outside, I took a spare RMR and sat it out in the heavy rain. The water had no ill affect until the unit filled with water. Simply tilting it over to drain the water fixed it. All the water droplets covering the inside and outside of the glass had no noticeable affect.

(I remember BRM in Basic, shooting the KD range in Leonardwood during heavy rain. I kept having to blow the water out of my rear peep sight on my A1...so even irons can get "flooded")
Link Posted: 5/17/2018 2:06:58 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Ya'll got me curious about rain getting into the open RMR. Since it's raining outside, I took a spare RMR and sat it out in the heavy rain. The water had no ill affect until the unit filled with water. Simply tilting it over to drain the water fixed it. All the water droplets covering the inside and outside of the glass had no noticeable affect.

(I remember BRM in Basic, shooting the KD range in Leonardwood during heavy rain. I kept having to blow the water out of my rear peep sight on my A1...so even irons can get "flooded")
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Exactly. The chorus who constantly bring this up are just skeptics thinking out loud too much.
Link Posted: 5/21/2018 10:07:48 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By Creature:
How many is "a lot" exactly?
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Originally Posted By Creature:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
I've been seeing a lot of DPP equipped guns getting picked up, or drawn and not turning on.

I replace batteries once a year anyways.
How many is "a lot" exactly?
Total? IDK. Enough to keep me away from them. No doubt plenty of people have zero problems while some people have problems with RMRs. It seems about a 4-1 difference and both are significantly better than anything else.

Fwiw I was a full time RSO while in school, now just a shift here and there, and I compete in 3 gun, uspsa, practical shotgun, etc a couple times per month, plus a class here and there. So I do see a fair amount of other people's gear.
Link Posted: 5/21/2018 10:11:51 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER:
Ya'll got me curious about rain getting into the open RMR. Since it's raining outside, I took a spare RMR and sat it out in the heavy rain. The water had no ill affect until the unit filled with water. Simply tilting it over to drain the water fixed it. All the water droplets covering the inside and outside of the glass had no noticeable affect.

(I remember BRM in Basic, shooting the KD range in Leonardwood during heavy rain. I kept having to blow the water out of my rear peep sight on my A1...so even irons can get "flooded")
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Full sized rds are less prone to environmental issues like that but peep sights/RMRs are very easy to clear. I hunt a lot with peep sights and in heavy snow I make it a practice to blow the ice out here and there and then again whenever I mount the rifle.

I could see RMRs haveing ice/cold issues in heavy snow. I'll test my rmr on my shockwave out this year.
Link Posted: 5/21/2018 2:15:59 PM EDT
I’ve got an RMR on my M4 Super90, Steiner MRS on my ARX-100, and Insight MRDS on my MPX. Honestly I feel they do the job just as well without all the weight. Of those three, the RMR is the only one I ever have emitter issues with (persistent dust getting in the emitter and refusing to get out of it). The MRS is totally enclosed and thus has no environmental issues whatsoever, and the MRDS has what looks like a plastic cap over the emitter, so the worst that happens is something gets on the cap and can be wiped off with anything easily.

All three are pretty damn durable.
Link Posted: 5/21/2018 9:57:51 PM EDT
I run an rmr on my sbr. No issues. I prefer the open sight style to small tubes. Large tube style are defiantly more forgiving on the cheek weld, at the expense of more weight.
Link Posted: 5/22/2018 6:19:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/22/2018 6:25:23 PM EDT by MS556]
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Originally Posted By Creature:
How many is "a lot" exactly?
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Originally Posted By Creature:
Originally Posted By 03RN:
I've been seeing a lot of DPP equipped guns getting picked up, or drawn and not turning on.

I replace batteries once a year anyways.
How many is "a lot" exactly?
Yes, how many is "a lot"? I only have a sample size of two, one of them about 4 years old now the other about 1 year. Never had either one fail to come on when picked up.

FWIW, there is a low battery indicator. If the battery gets low, it will quickly flash ten consecutive times when picked up. It still has several hours of constant on battery life after that. Chances are that if it didn't come on, someone ignored the flashing indicator of a low battery and let it run completely down.

I've now (finally) replaced the battery in the older DPP after over 3 years! Yes, i said over 3 years. It is not a daily carry weapon, so it is not in movement all the time. It is used regularly, though and left on 24/7. I simply replaced the battery when I saw the flashing. It's easy to carry a spare battery and takes about 30 seconds, max, to replace, since it is just a matter of button latch/lock on top and the door pops open. It's a standard coin battery like most optics use - CR 2032.
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