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Page AR-15 » AR-15 / M-16 Retro Forum
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 12/15/2010 1:58:51 AM EDT
OK guys, here's my dilemma...

A while back I built a sort of 604gery with a black slick-side upper provided by Fulton Armory, on a standard black A2 lower...

Since then, I've been annoyed by the fact that not only is it black, but Fulton customer service sold me out of spec parts and basically told me to go F myself when I asked for a bit of service...

The barrel that I used is an old Colt barrel, and the guy who sold it to me explained that while it was in new or like new condition, it had been removed from a complete GI upper.  It installed on mine just fine, shoots just fine, etc.

My question is this:

I have a gray lower from NDS now...
Am I running any risks of damage (to the barrel) if I remove this barrel from my upper, and bolt it on to a 603 style upper from NDS?

Secondly, of less importance, will the upper be reusable perhaps for a .22 or similar?

Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 3:09:25 AM EDT
[#1]
Something would have to go really, bizarrely wrong to damage either the barrel or the receiver during disassembly.  As long as you have a good upper receiver vice block and barrel nut wrench, and as long as the barrel was installed correctly to begin with, you should be fine.

What was out of spec from Fulton?
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 3:43:58 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Something would have to go really, bizarrely wrong to damage either the barrel or the receiver during disassembly.  As long as you have a good upper receiver vice block and barrel nut wrench, and as long as the barrel was installed correctly to begin with, you should be fine.

What was out of spec from Fulton?


I followed the instructions to torque the barrel to 30 ft.lbs, back off, torque to 30, back off, torque to 30, and then torque to the next gas tube slot.  I installed the barrel with a good heavy coating of wheel barrel grease around the extension and on the barrel nut and receiver threads.

The upper had a narrow charging handle slot.  I modified a charging handle to fit by removing some metal from the side-tabs, and it doesn't seem to impact the function of the rifle at all.  However, the fact that the owner told me to basically STFU and deal with it has really been grinding my gears, and every time I pick the rifle up I'm reminded of it.

ETA:

And I feel guilty about it being more of a "604 Inspired" type rifle rather than a true 604gery...

And I feel guilty about never completing the gray 603 type rifle I wanted to build years ago before I knew about NDS...
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 4:58:07 AM EDT
[#3]
Most of the barrels I've pulled from uppers went smoothly.(We're talking many dozens of barrels)
The only time I had problems was removing a CMPC barrel from a 601 upper.
The barrel was so tight that I had to cut a broom handle to about 18" and use it and a rubber mallet to tap out the barrel.
This was after 4 days of penetrating oil.
I have had very old gas tubes be a problem coming out.
I would go ahead and pull it if it were me.
You 'll be much more happier with an all gray NDS rifle.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 5:13:33 AM EDT
[#4]
Yhea, I think I'm gonna go ahead and pull it, bolt it into a NDS603 upper, and slap that assembly on the NDS gray A2 lower I've got, along with my nicest pair of A1 hand-guards and my Type-E stock.  Otherwise, I'll never get over it...
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 6:14:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Save that black upper, throw on an M4 barrel and with a carbine stocked lower you can have an AF GAU mixmaster, or save it for a dedicated .22 build.

My 1:12 barrel shoots reasonably well with a .22 conversion kit. The group will be a few inches over and down and opened up a little from its zero with .223

ETA: Just reread your post, and misunderestimated at first. Thought you were asking about .22 through your 5.56 barrel.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 6:20:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Save that black upper, throw on an M4 barrel and with a carbine stocked lower you can have an AF GAU mixmaster, or save it for a dedicated .22 build.
...
ETA: Just reread your post, and misunderestimated at first. Thought you were asking about .22 through your 5.56 barrel.


Yhea, I'm thinking about doing something similar with the upper.  I'm not going to throw it away, but anything that gets built on it is definitely going to be on the cheap...I'm thinking this might turn into a perfect "trunk rifle", cause I won't feel bad about chucking it back there with a mag and a few boxes of ammo for those "Aw hell I'm going to the range right now!" moments.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 6:40:52 AM EDT
[#7]
of course you know it still won't be right if you're using an A2 lower...no matter what color it is, you will still "feel guilty about it being more of a "604 Inspired" type rifle rather than a true 604gery..., feel guilty about never completing the gray 603 type rifle I wanted to build years ago before I knew about NDS..."  

so you may as well get a matching set of 604 and/or 603 upper/lower receivers from NDS and use the gray A2 lower for an early A2 build
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 6:45:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
of course you know it still won't be right if you're using an A2 lower...




Please, don't guilt trip me into buying ANOTHER lower...


so you may as well get a matching set of 604 and/or 603 upper/lower receivers from NDS and use the gray A2 lower for an early A2 build


If only I had the money...I already have an A2 rifle, and I don't really want a second one.  The A2 lower is going to be fine, honestly, once I found out about NDS I didn't want to go with an A1 lower since I was worried about the strength in the unreinforced areas.

I'm also going to put an A2 pistol grip on it, they feel nice to me!

ETA: I'm still actually considering going with one of those gray C7 uppers they've got...Right now I'd say it's a 80/20 split in favor of the 603...
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 7:40:07 AM EDT
[#9]
there aren't enough strength differences between an NDS lower and an A2 lower to worry about..in fact I seem to remember a post awhile back where Mike showed that NDS receivers were just as strong or stronger than A2 receivers

but I'd suggest you go with the C7 upper and A2 furniture if you must use the A2 lower and an A2 PG, or you could sell/trade the gray A2 lower and get the correct bits...
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 7:47:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I didn't want to go with an A1 lower since I was worried about the strength in the unreinforced areas.

I've never met anyone who's broken one.  Have you?

You can build it right once, or you can build it wrong several times at greater expense and end up with a nice parts collection which you eventually need to turn into complete rifles (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Quoted:
I'm also going to put an A2 pistol grip on it, they feel nice to me!

Definitely sounds like you need a proper A2 or C7 build in your future.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 9:16:17 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
there aren't enough strength differences between an NDS lower and an A2 lower to worry about..in fact I seem to remember a post awhile back where Mike showed that NDS receivers were just as strong or stronger than A2 receivers


Then just imagine how strong my NDS A2 lower must be?

Man, so, it must be almost like an A3 lower at that rate!


but I'd suggest you go with the C7 upper and A2 furniture if you must use the A2 lower and an A2 PG, or you could sell/trade the gray A2 lower and get the correct bits...


The gray A2 lower is going into the rifle because I've already got it, and because I'll just feel more comfy with it that way...I am not ruling out the later purchase of an NDS A1 lower and using the A2 lower for something else, just not right now.  The A2 pistol grip is a choice, and I'd have it on my A1 lower too.  The A1 grips that I felt were not as comfy to me as the A2 ones were.  The A2 stock, likewise, is more comfortable for me, however, since the A1's fit me OK I'm going to go with it.

Quoted:
Quoted:
I didn't want to go with an A1 lower since I was worried about the strength in the unreinforced areas.

I've never met anyone who's broken one.  Have you?


Yes, actually, and he posted about it here when we were discussing the A1 vs. A2 strengths.


You can build it right once, or you can build it wrong several times at greater expense and end up with a nice parts collection which you eventually need to turn into complete rifles (not that there is anything wrong with that).


Hey, just be glad I'm going the gray-route!


Quoted:
I'm also going to put an A2 pistol grip on it, they feel nice to me!

Definitely sounds like you need a proper A2 or C7 build in your future.


A2:

C7:


Got it covered  Pardon the laundry, laundry day got interrupted to take some photos, heh...

ETA: I just blasted the barrel nut area with some penetrating oil.  I'll be popping it off tonight, just to make sure I don't change my mind about putting together a gray rifle.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 9:27:57 AM EDT
[#12]
Laundry day? What's that?
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 10:03:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Laundry day? What's that?

A sacred ritual that only women partake in.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 11:38:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
there aren't enough strength differences between an NDS lower and an A2 lower to worry about..in fact I seem to remember a post awhile back where Mike showed that NDS receivers were just as strong or stronger than A2 receivers


I've got about 400 rounds of .458 Socom on my NDS16A1 lower. Hasn't loosened up yet.
Link Posted: 12/15/2010 9:37:31 PM EDT
[#15]
A sacred ritual that only women partake in.


I call bullshit!!! As a former YOUNG and Active Marine I didnt have any woman to do my laundry, Thankfully my Momma taught me to do my laundry back in the 60's so I havent ever ended up with pink underwear!!!

Now those of you who have army monikers may have enjoyed the occasional pink tinged undies that you wore under your so called "dress" uniforms.

Back on topic, I would just go with everyone else's suggestion, build a "correct" clone and use the other parts for a dedicated 22 for your child to enjoy, if or when you have them.
Link Posted: 12/17/2010 5:53:24 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
A sacred ritual that only women partake in.


I call bullshit!!! As a former YOUNG and Active Marine I didnt have any woman to do my laundry, Thankfully my Momma taught me to do my laundry back in the 60's so I havent ever ended up with pink underwear!!!

Now those of you who have army monikers may have enjoyed the occasional pink tinged undies that you wore under your so called "dress" uniforms.

Back on topic, I would just go with everyone else's suggestion, build a "correct" clone and use the other parts for a dedicated 22 for your child to enjoy, if or when you have them.


My wallet enjoys me shooting my .22 over WWB 5.56
Link Posted: 12/17/2010 6:38:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Save that black upper, throw on an M4 barrel and with a carbine stocked lower you can have an AF GAU mixmaster, or save it for a dedicated .22 build.

My 1:12 barrel shoots reasonably well with a .22 conversion kit. The group will be a few inches over and down and opened up a little from its zero with .223

ETA: Just reread your post, and misunderestimated at first. Thought you were asking about .22 through your 5.56 barrel.


This is my vote. Der Hans - you only have an A2? And we let you hang out here? j/k.

I'm glad you told us about the Fulton Armory thing. Another thing to consider would be to sell the entire rifle for more than you have into it and start a fresh build, maybe with one of the $350 kits in the other thread. I would certainly not worry about the strangth of the NDS lowers - they are GTG - stronger than milspec, just about as strong as an A2, and consider that the original Mk18s and SPRs used A1 lowers. If it's strong enough for a SF guy I don't think you need to worry. I won't buy anything but NDS from here on out - something I would not do if I was worried about the strength of their lowers.

ETA: If you insist on using the existing A2 lower and A2 PG, then why not buy the C7 upper from NDS like you considered, and build a Canadian clone eh?  You could do a 715 or whatever they called them things. The first 'A2' I ever saw was in ROTC, but it wasn't really an A2, it was an A1 in A2 furniture - my instructor was a little miffed because he wanted to show us the new sights the A2 had, but that's all he had available to him. I wonder what he'd think of this forum?
Link Posted: 12/17/2010 6:57:24 AM EDT
[#18]
Me thinks that some people should be glad I'm wanting to put an A1 barrel on a correct A1 style upper....

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