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Posted: 8/18/2004 5:11:19 AM EST
I am in the process of selling my company on standardizing 75 grain TAP as the issue ammo for officers equipped with 1/7 twist barreled carbines. However, this stuff is exceptionally expensive to use for training. It took a lot of convincing to get TAP as an option on the table, but when the math was done the cost of range training with the ammo, I thought I would need a defibrilator.

Can anyone recommend a more economical ammunition for regular range training with similar ballistic properties to the 75 grain TAP? It obviously doesn't need to be identical, but I would like to get as close as possible...especially for ranges under 300 ft.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:22:18 AM EST
Perhaps GPSS can help: www.georgiaprecision.com/cart/items/BH223RemNew.htm

They have Black Hills ammo, both new and re-man for excellent pricing: D223R6 .223 Rem. 75gr Heavy Match Hollow Point 2750fps Re-man - 500 rnds $186.90

Might shoot to similar POI, (IIRC this is a Hornady bullet which is the same that makes the TAP your referring to).

FWIW, I like the blue box (reloaded) 77 grn. SMKs for my 1/7 M4 rifles.

Mike
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 5:34:37 AM EST
As Mr. Wilson indicated the Black Hills blue box 75gr Heavy Match is a cost effective way to train. At $18 for a box of 50 it should be much cheaper than the TAP. It is loaded to the same pressure and uses the same bullet.
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:39:27 AM EST


Many are probably going to scream and rant about this, but here goes.

For practice, just use 55gr ammo!

The difference in POI at 300 FEET is only 0.6" - a little over half an inch.

The Hornady 75gr TAP bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.435 and a published Muzzle Velocity of 2790 fps. After the bullet leaves the muzzle, it will drop 2.3" at 100 yards and 9.9" at 200 yards. This does not mean this is where it will hit when you shoot from a zeroed weapon, but just the bullet drop.

Federal American Eagle 55gr bullet has a Ballistic Coefficient of 0.343 and a published Muzzle Velocity of 3240 fps. After thisbullet leaves the muzzle the bullet drop will be 1.7" at 100 and 7.5" at 200.

I call this difference close enough for practice. The differences in POI will be even less under 100 yards.

Now, having said all that, I can tell you that in MY 16" Colt with 1:7 twist the POI difference between Hornady 75gr TAP and Federal 55gr XM193 out to 200 yards is within the differences I cited above.

The XM193 does, however, shoot about an inch left at 100 yards.

Your particular weapon may (or may not) demonstrate a difference in windage POI and should be tested. But for these ranges, there is really no reason why you can't practice with 55gr ammo and carry the 75gr TAP ammo.

HTH
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 7:56:22 AM EST
What do you consider "economical" in terms of practice ammo? I can pickup Black Hills Blue Box 75 grain Heavy Match (same bullet as Hornady TAP) for $14.50 per box of 50 at the local gunshow. That's 29¢ per round. That is almost double what I can get XM193 or Q3131A for, but still very affordable in my opinion. If my local gunshow supplier can get it and sell it for that price, others in your area should be able to as well (or very near to it.)

You'll need to run a couple hundred rounds through each rifle with the issue stuff anyway just to make sure there are no reliability issues.....
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 8:44:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By gaijin:

Many are probably going to scream and rant about this, but here goes.

For practice, just use 55gr ammo!

The difference in POI at 300 FEET is only 0.6" - a little over half an inch.



You are, of course, correct. I also use 55gr for much of my practice though I use the 75gr OTMs for 'seriouse use'. It depends on if his Training Officer want them to train with what they use (because you might find feeding issues with some carbines/magazines with the OTMS that dont show up with the FMJs).
Link Posted: 8/18/2004 12:22:35 PM EST
Thanks to everyone for the input. XM193 is what we are using now. If it turns out to have a trajectory that close to the Hornaday 75, I think we have got a winner! If POI variances are less than an inch at ranges up to 300 feet, that solves my training cost problem.

As for our barrels, some of the weapons with 1/7 brrels are Colt and we now have a few with LMT barrels. I think my next action is to comparatively test both ammo using a few different weapons at several different distances and see if POI variance is in that one-inch range. If so, that is very acceptable!
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 6:14:28 AM EST


By Jove, I think he's got it!

Good luck, ReconScout and be safe.
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