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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/26/2005 7:45:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 7:51:30 AM EDT by FUZ1ON]
Well folks...after talking up how pleased I was with the visual overview of my new Bushmaster A2M4gery 16" Patrolmans Carbine...and after ordering a case of Black Hills Ammo and then springing for a Trijicon TA11 ACOG...I feel like a horses @$$ here but I finally managed to make it to the range to put this thing through it's paces this morning and here's how it went...

I figured the best thing I could do was to start out by taking the ACOG off and dialing in my A2's Irons at 50yds and "THEN" mount the acog and dial it in at 50yds...then at 100yds...and finally 200yrds at Indian Rivers Public Shooting Range (where I know the rangemaster...a good friend I've known for about 20 years)...but unfortunately?...my Bushmaster never made it that far...as follows....

With the Patrolmans Carbine fresh outta the box?...The first group I had aimed for the orange hotspot (in the center of the target)...(sitting right on top of my front sight post "lollypopped")with just the irons at 50yds...and all of the first 5 shots fed slick as a whistle then fired, extracted and ejected just fine placing all 5 in a nice tight 2" group (4"s high/5"s right) as the bolt locked back on the last shot and I thought..."Cool...gotta winner here!"

Then just to verify?...since the carbine is new?...I loaded up just three rounds and shot a 2nd group while aiming at the center/bottom edge of the carboard backer...with the first 2 touching but then had a FTE but shot the 3rd shot anyways...but still packed all three into a nice tidy sub 1" group with irons at 50 yards...as follows....



But after that?...my Patrolmans Carbine transformed itself into a single shot AR with FTE after FTE....some would almost stovepipe (with a 2nd live round trying to feed in under it) while others completely failed to extract....and here's the odd part....the ones that completely failed to extract?...as soon as a rod touched them they'd come tumbling out under gravity with like zero pressure on the push rod...so it wasn't like the brass was "sticking"...it just wasn't extracting...I tried several brand new mags and no dice...same results with all...then my buddy Jimmy checked the gas key and it was tight...I checked the extractor and it seemed functional and was in fact not damaged and seemed to be very capable of grabbing a full lips worth of rim...and in the end?...alls my bud Jimmy could come up with is the suggestion that it's a possible headspace issue with a recomendation to send it back to Bushmaster for repairs and a raincheck for my rangetime...meanwhile I called my FFL bud who sold it to me and he told me to just box it right back up and get it over to him cause he's calling Bushmaster as this is the 2nd of a lot of 3 he ordered...one for me, one for a local LEO and one for himself and he's already had to send the LEO's back for repairs for the same type of complaint....FTE.

Damn this sux...as now I got a case of ammo...a $900 ACOG...a bad case of the shooting Jones and...no carbine.

Thanks for lett'in me cry on your shoulders LOL!!!...and L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:57:58 AM EDT
What stock are you using? If it's collapsible, what buffer are you using?

If it's a collapsible, you could try a 9mm buffer. If the round is still in the chamber, and not stuck tight, the carbine gas system might be causing the extractor to accidentally pop off the rim of the case while the chamber pressure is still sealing the case to the chamber wall, therefore not extracting it.

If that's not the case, Bushmaster should make it right.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:59:31 AM EDT
Suck to have a new gun do that. Hope Bushmaster make all good.

ilike9s

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:14:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By WIZZO_ARAKM14:
What stock are you using?



Stock 6 stage collapsible


If it's collapsible, what buffer are you using?


I have no clue...whatever they popped in there as a stock oem buffer.


If it's a collapsible, you could try a 9mm buffer. If the round is still in the chamber, and not stuck tight, the carbine gas system might be causing the extractor to accidentally pop off the rim of the case while the chamber pressure is still sealing the case to the chamber wall, therefore not extracting it.


well that sorta sux...does the 9mm buffer remedy this...also....why would the first 5-7 shots run through'er just fine and then suddenly it's FTE city?


If that's not the case, Bushmaster should make it right.


Yeah...it's only two weeks old and this was it's first range session...as a matter of fact my FFL bud has instructed me to box it right back up and bring it over to him as he's handling the return/repair with BM.....but if it's something stupid where "I Don't Hafta Send My Cabine Bac"k to sit on BM's armory rax for a month or more...I'm all ears.

WIZZO

Thanks Wizzo....and I'm open to any other ideas from anyone here as well...as in..."help"

Bill.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:41:53 AM EDT
Did you use a chamber brush and CLP after the malfunctions, and if so, did it help? Did you try any other ammo?

Just a thought.

Sucks to be without your carbine but I am sure that if it is a problem with the Bushmaster they will make it right.

Good luck.

Seydou
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:43:20 AM EDT
If you haven't sent it back yet, break it down and check the gas carrier key screws and see if they are loose. You might be able to save yourself some aggravation if that is the culprit.

Let me know....
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:10:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 9:12:58 AM EDT by j3_]

...then my buddy Jimmy checked the gas key and it was tight.


Send it back. No reason to fight it or patch it.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:33:29 AM EDT
Same thing happned to my friends RRA B/C/C with a Colt upper. Just keep shooting it and it may begin to work correctly. That's what we did and now it runs just fine.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:02:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 12:03:27 PM EDT by Stickman]

Originally Posted By j3_:

...then my buddy Jimmy checked the gas key and it was tight.


Send it back. No reason to fight it or patch it.



I wasn't asking if the gas key was tight when someone else checked it, I was asking him to check the carrier key screws.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:38:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Seydou:
Did you use a chamber brush and CLP after the malfunctions, and if so, did it help?



No...I didn't...as I wouldn't think that with only 5-7 shots on a clean and well lubed brand new carbine that a dirty chamber would be the cause of the sudden and extreme FTE malfunctioning


Did you try any other ammo?

Just a thought.



Again no as I was shooting "Blackhills Blue Box"....supposedly some very high quality ammo.


Sucks to be without your carbine but I am sure that if it is a problem with the Bushmaster they will make it right.

Good luck.

Seydou



Thanks man....and my FFL bud has already been on the phone with'em and is waiting a call back cause now he's gonna have two of'em sitting there (with extremely close serial #'s) with the same exact FTE problems and feels as though he shouldn't hafta pay shipping (either way) to remedy BM's apparent incompetence regarding Final X & QC...and I agree...he shouldn't hafta fork out a dime cause if they aren't right?...and they obviously ain't...then BM should've never shipped'em out in the first place.

So...back in the box it goes and wish me luck and a speedy return...L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 12:58:51 PM EDT
Send it back and let Bushy make it right.

Max
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:23:21 PM EDT
it probably wasnt stripped down by you before you shot it. my friend is ignorant and bought a over-the-counter bushie and same exact thing happened. finally he wanted to listen to me, I stripped it down and cleaned it and oiled it with CLP rapid-fire and now it runs likes nobodys business.



BTW.........I had to stake the carrier key, bushie didnt stake them at all.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:30:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By j3_:

...then my buddy Jimmy checked the gas key and it was tight.


Send it back. No reason to fight it or patch it.



I wasn't asking if the gas key was tight when someone else checked it, I was asking him to check the carrier key screws.



Stickman...as you suggested I just checked the gas key screws and they appear to be very tight and well staked...but the one thing I did notice is the extractor appears to be a tad "recessed" as compared to (not the bolt face but) the lug faces...by about .015-.020"...I'm not sure if this is normal but don't recall noticing such on any of my previous AR's.



Also...another oddity that's bugging me out is this...the first few malfuntions just "Failed To Eject" and jammed with the following live round stripped and feeding....then it seemed to worsen with subsequent "Failures to Extract"...yet on the first few fail to "extract" I was able to clear the mag and manually pull the charging handle back and let it slam home on the spent case and it would pull it...but then it got even worse to the point that it wouldn't even achieve that...and we had to resort to using a rod to pop'em out...and all in the course of about the last 9 rounds fired...like something was constantly and consistantly changing for the worst...and that's when I packed it in...after trying several different but ALL brand new BM 30rd mags.

and I'm boxing it up now to let BM figure it out as...this ones beyond me unless anyone here has any last minute thoughts or suggestions. L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:34:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By donovan007007:
it probably wasnt stripped down by you before you shot it. my friend is ignorant and bought a over-the-counter bushie and same exact thing happened. finally he wanted to listen to me, I stripped it down and cleaned it and oiled it with CLP rapid-fire and now it runs likes nobodys business.



BTW.........I had to stake the carrier key, bushie didnt stake them at all.



Thanks for the help but...apparently?...I'm a tad sharper than your ignorant friend.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:37:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Thanks for the help but...apparently?...I'm a tad sharper than your ignorant friend.



Not cleaning or lubing the weapon first? I would certainly hope you are sharper than that!!

Keep us posted as to what Bushie says. If others are having a similar issue, then something happened in manufacturing or assembly, and it needs to go back.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:52:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Thanks for the help but...apparently?...I'm a tad sharper than your ignorant friend.



Not cleaning or lubing the weapon first? I would certainly hope you are sharper than that!!

Keep us posted as to what Bushie says. If others are having a similar issue, then something happened in manufacturing or assembly, and it needs to go back.



That was the intent of the response and of course I stripped it, cleaned it, oiled up the pivoting parts and buttered up the sliding areas with tetra cream...should've been running like a clock...and it did for the first 5 rounds...then the FTEE's got progressively worse to the point of becoming a single shot AR...and all within about the first 15-20 rds fired.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 1:59:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 2:02:11 PM EDT by Bowhntr6pt]
Perhaps the chamber is in need of a slight polishing?? I had a rifle do just that and the chamber was ever so slightly "rough", just enough to resist extraction for a nano-second. Once polisehed, problem went away.

I'm sure this is just a "glitch", don't lose the excitement of the new purchase just yet.

Scrub the piss out of the chamber with a bronze chamber brush and then give it a try.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 3:07:36 PM EDT
What really gets me is that for the price you pay for a Bushy, you should not have these problems out of the box. Of course, there is always going to be some lemons, but two out of three in the same lot. There is a problem. It is sad in respect to my DPMS Panther Carbine. I have run approximately 200 rds through it and no problems whatsoever. I initially stripped the weapon down when I got it home, cleaned and lubed it well, and took it out to the range a few weeks later. It operated flawlessly. Since, I have kept it clean after every usage and it continuously fires without fail. I have used Federal XM193 5.56 ammo and Georgia Arms G223B 55gr FMJ ammo with no problems. The Georgia Arms ammo is good stuff IMO.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 6:37:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt:
Perhaps the chamber is in need of a slight polishing?? I had a rifle do just that and the chamber was ever so slightly "rough", just enough to resist extraction for a nano-second. Once polisehed, problem went away.

I'm sure this is just a "glitch", don't lose the excitement of the new purchase just yet.

Scrub the piss out of the chamber with a bronze chamber brush and then give it a try.



Ahh...to late now....it's already been boxed back up and delivered back to my dealer who will then deal with Bushmaster...and I'll let Bushmaster figure out if they need to polish up their own chrome lined chamber...as that ain't for me to do...nor is trouble-shooting the darn thing...one of the benefits of paying a slight premium for a warranteed, pre-assemled arm...as if ANYTHING goes wrong?...it's on them and not me....but nevertheles it's still disappointing.

My dealer gave it a once over and the action is plenty lubed and smooth and now it's looking like both of these sister lot (extremely close serial #) carbines have barrel/chamber issues but we won't know for sure until we get word back from the amorer on the first one....with my dealer citing that just a month or two ago bushy had like a 3-4 month lead time on barrels...then "other barrel vendors" jumped in the loop and viola....nothing confirmed...just what he'd been hearing but very believable under the circumstances.

Oh well...we'll see how bushy handles it...and hopefully it'll be better than the initial assembly.

Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:18:23 PM EDT
A little late, but...another place to check is the gas port role pin...if the pin falls out,or never their to start, the gas tube will backout and rotate causing said failures. And yes, I have had personal experience with this issue.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:22:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/26/2005 7:24:01 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:
Well folks...after talking up how pleased I was with the visual overview of my new Bushmaster A2M4gery 16" Patrolmans Carbine...and after ordering a case of Black Hills Ammo and then springing for a Trijicon TA11 ACOG...I feel like a horses @$$ here but I finally managed to make it to the range to put this thing through it's paces this morning and here's how it went...

I figured the best thing I could do was to start out by taking the ACOG off and dialing in my A2's Irons at 50yds and "THEN" mount the acog and dial it in at 50yds...then at 100yds...and finally 200yrds at Indian Rivers Public Shooting Range (where I know the rangemaster...a good friend I've known for about 20 years)...but unfortunately?...my Bushmaster never made it that far...as follows....

With the Patrolmans Carbine fresh outta the box?...The first group I had aimed for the orange hotspot (in the center of the target)...(sitting right on top of my front sight post "lollypopped")with just the irons at 50yds...and all of the first 5 shots fed slick as a whistle then fired, extracted and ejected just fine placing all 5 in a nice tight 2" group (4"s high/5"s right) as the bolt locked back on the last shot and I thought..."Cool...gotta winner here!"

Then just to verify?...since the carbine is new?...I loaded up just three rounds and shot a 2nd group while aiming at the center/bottom edge of the carboard backer...with the first 2 touching but then had a FTE but shot the 3rd shot anyways...but still packed all three into a nice tidy sub 1" group with irons at 50 yards...as follows....

fz1gear.com/Target1.jpg

But after that?...my Patrolmans Carbine transformed itself into a single shot AR with FTE after FTE....some would almost stovepipe (with a 2nd live round trying to feed in under it) while others completely failed to extract....and here's the odd part....the ones that completely failed to extract?...as soon as a rod touched them they'd come tumbling out under gravity with like zero pressure on the push rod...so it wasn't like the brass was "sticking"...it just wasn't extracting...I tried several brand new mags and no dice...same results with all...then my buddy Jimmy checked the gas key and it was tight...I checked the extractor and it seemed functional and was in fact not damaged and seemed to be very capable of grabbing a full lips worth of rim...and in the end?...alls my bud Jimmy could come up with is the suggestion that it's a possible headspace issue with a recomendation to send it back to Bushmaster for repairs and a raincheck for my rangetime...meanwhile I called my FFL bud who sold it to me and he told me to just box it right back up and get it over to him cause he's calling Bushmaster as this is the 2nd of a lot of 3 he ordered...one for me, one for a local LEO and one for himself and he's already had to send the LEO's back for repairs for the same type of complaint....FTE.

Damn this sux...as now I got a case of ammo...a $900 ACOG...a bad case of the shooting Jones and...no carbine.

Thanks for lett'in me cry on your shoulders LOL!!!...and L8R, Bill.



Sorry to hear about your troubles.
You might consider a Colt LE carbine next time.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 7:47:34 PM EDT
Kinda new to the AR here, but I had the same type of malf's last wknd.
Got home and popped the bolt out and saw all the gas rings had the gaps lined up.
Don't know if this could cause the problem,
just curious if you might have checked it?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 8:54:34 PM EDT
Just before we get to carried away with Colt stories, let me present to you some recent Colt quality.....





The bottom line is that it happens sometimes, but it sucks when it happens to us as individuals.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 9:18:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Just before we get to carried away with Colt stories, let me present to you some recent Colt quality.....


img376.imageshack.us/img376/7886/brokenboltcleanedup7ym.jpg


The bottom line is that it happens sometimes, but it sucks when it happens to us as individuals.



Yepper and amen Stickman...no matter if it has a Horse or a Snake on it $hit can and does happen....and at this point?...thanks to the many "positive" suggestions here?...and a rather kind and intelligent individual who IM'ed me some especially helpful info?...I'm learning so much (and remembering...i.e. completely forgot about the gas rings lining up thing...thanks) that at this point?....I'm almost pleased I had a problem. LOL!!!

I'm gonna be making some moves tomorrow morning...and I'll get back with ya'll shortly after to share with ya'll what moves I made and "why"...and also to give credit where credits due.

Thanks again everybody here at arfcom and...L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:14:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Sorry to hear about your troubles.
You might consider a Colt LE carbine next time.



Shameless Colt plug, eh?



BTW, the gas ring gaps lining-up-malfuntion is more myth than truth.

The rings will rotate as you shoot and eventually, the ring gaps will align. Nothing you can do about it unless you get one of the 1 piece rings.

I'd worry about other things that might be wrong, but just as you would in any scientific test, align the rings, see how it shoots, take it apart and space the rings out and see if it helps.

If anything, it'll just rule one more thing out for you.

WIZZO
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 2:28:02 AM EDT

Just before we get to carried away with Colt stories, let me present to you some recent Colt quality.....


Nice well used bolts. Do not see the markings. How do you know they are Colt?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:38:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/27/2005 7:22:11 AM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Just before we get to carried away with Colt stories, let me present to you some recent Colt quality.....


img376.imageshack.us/img376/7886/brokenboltcleanedup7ym.jpg


The bottom line is that it happens sometimes, but it sucks when it happens to us as individuals.



Yepper and amen Stickman...no matter if it has a Horse or a Snake on it $hit can and does happen....and at this point?...thanks to the many "positive" suggestions here?...and a rather kind and intelligent individual who IM'ed me some especially helpful info?...I'm learning so much (and remembering...i.e. completely forgot about the gas rings lining up thing...thanks) that at this point?....I'm almost pleased I had a problem. LOL!!!

I'm gonna be making some moves tomorrow morning...and I'll get back with ya'll shortly after to share with ya'll what moves I made and "why"...and also to give credit where credits due.

Thanks again everybody here at arfcom and...L8R, Bill.



Bill,

I was not trying to start a pissing match with Colt vs the world with my suggestion. It really was meant for you and no one else. It's just that you seem to be having a rough time with Bushy products so far (your BAR10 didn't seem to satisfy, now this), though I understand in general they make good products. My thought was that with both of us being prior service, we are accustomed to a certain standard in weapons quality from working with them as bread and butter for so long. When I was XO for a Rifle Company I was responsible for the unit armory as well as beans and bullets, and although my NCOs did did all the work (I'll admit they are the backbone of the Infantry ), yes, I did see broken bolts from time to time, similar to the ones in the images Stickman has posted. Some of these had tens of thousands of rounds under their belt, I might add. So I am not trying to imply that Colt is the end-all, be-all. It's not.

My suggestion to you was meant to imply that after I got out of the service and tried various AR15 clone brands such as Bushmaster, DPMS and others under the mistaken assumption they were all of a standard quality, I finally came to the conclusion that Colt Rifles and LE Carbines were the closest to what I had in the service. Not saying they are the best, or most durable, or anything like that. Anything can break. Just the closest because the LE carbines are tested to the same QC standards the Military requires. Not many other commercial manufacturers, Bushy included, meet these QC standards. This may or may not be important to some, but it is to me.

Just saying that in my opinion of all the commercial ARs, the Colt is the closest thing to the service rifles I worked with, in terms of QC and performance and in the end, that's what I was looking for. Might not be what you want, I don't know. I just didn't know if you had tried the Civvy legal Colts yet. In any case, I hope the issues with your newest Bushy get worked out. I'm sure it will be a fine weapon.


Dave
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:06:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By FUZ1ON:

Originally Posted By Stickman:
Just before we get to carried away with Colt stories, let me present to you some recent Colt quality.....


img376.imageshack.us/img376/7886/brokenboltcleanedup7ym.jpg


The bottom line is that it happens sometimes, but it sucks when it happens to us as individuals.



Yepper and amen Stickman...no matter if it has a Horse or a Snake on it $hit can and does happen....and at this point?...thanks to the many "positive" suggestions here?...and a rather kind and intelligent individual who IM'ed me some especially helpful info?...I'm learning so much (and remembering...i.e. completely forgot about the gas rings lining up thing...thanks) that at this point?....I'm almost pleased I had a problem. LOL!!!

I'm gonna be making some moves tomorrow morning...and I'll get back with ya'll shortly after to share with ya'll what moves I made and "why"...and also to give credit where credits due.

Thanks again everybody here at arfcom and...L8R, Bill.



Bill,

I was not trying to start a pissing match with Colt vs the world with my suggestion. It really was meant for you and no one else. It's just that you seem to be having a rough time with Bushy products so far (your BAR10 didn't seem to satisfy, now this), though I understand in general they make good products. My thought was that with both of us being prior service, we are accustomed to a certain standard in weapons quality from working with them as bread and butter for so long. When I was XO for a Rifle Company I was responsible for the unit armory as well as beans and bullets, and although my NCOs did did all the work (I'll admit they are the backbone of the Infantry ), yes, I did see broken bolts from time to time, similar to the ones in the images Stickman has posted. Some of these had tens of thousands of rounds under their belt, I might add. So I am not trying to imply that Colt is the end-all, be-all. It's not.

My suggestion to you was meant to imply that after I got out of the service and tried various AR15 clone brands such as Bushmaster, DPMS and others under the mistaken assumption they were all of a standard quality, I finally came to the conclusion that Colt Rifles and LE Carbines were the closest to what I had in the service. Not saying they are the best, or most durable, or anything like that. Anything can break. Just the closest because the LE carbines are tested to the same QC standards the Military requires. Not many other commercial manufacturers, Bushy included, meet these QC standards. This may or may not be important to some, but it is to me.

Just saying that in my opinion of all the commercial ARs, the Colt is the closest thing to the service rifles I worked with, in terms of QC and performance and in the end, that's what I was looking for. Might not be what you want, I don't know. I just didn't know if you had tried the Civvy legal Colts yet. In any case, I hope the issues with your newest Bushy get worked out. I'm sure it will be a fine weapon.


Dave



Not a problem and the sincerity of your response here is obvious...accepted and thank you.

To boot?...I do agree that in general colt products do typically ring of a slightly higher quality than does bushy...however...despite my fate and misfortune with bushy?...bushy imho is right in the hunt and running a damn close 2nd...so close in fact that when I'm forced to factor in "availability" and the slightly lower cost?...bushmaster always seems to find a place on my shortlist....and in this case?...it's also been a bit of a learning experience...which is cool as now I know where to spend some of the extra cash I saved by buying a bushy...and my plan here is to spend that extra cash by seriousely upgrading the bolt with wolf x-power/M4 black insert extractor springs and upgraded extractors...with enough cash left over for a 2nd/Back-up fully upgraded bolt assy to toss in my SHTF vest....maybe a whole carrie/bolt group for quick swap out.

In hindsight?...if I had it to do over again?....given the same circumstances?...I probably do the same thing...remember...my FFL bud called with a fantastic deal on a lot of (3)...I wound up paying $730 + Tax and Background for a A2 16" Patrolmans Carbine....not to bad if the damn thing functioned!!! LOL!....and it will...sooner or later...and the only thing that could've been worse?...is a malfuntioning colt...or eve worse yet....a malfuntioning high dollar custom build...neither of which are exactly "UnHeard Of".....and sometimes I think that BM has more problems simply because they produce more AR's than anyone else....mines just requiring a little extra attention before it becomes a success story. LOL!!!....as the perceding thoughts are all I have left to console myself and...L8R, Bill.
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