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Posted: 7/18/2004 6:37:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/18/2004 7:09:26 PM EST
Are there any gel-tests relating to this load? Awesome report, btw!

-Cap'n
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 3:41:53 AM EST
Excellent report! I have never tried any of this ammo but I may have to make it my "compromise' load as well. For those interested, I'm almost positive this load is on DocGKR's list of approved rounds for defensive type work. While I haven't seen any gel shots, all info I've heard from those in the know sounds very promising.

I have a mix of 1/9 and 1/7 twist rifles. I hate having multiple types of ammo on hand. So I may just stock M193 for general use and buy these 73 gr OTM loads for the more serious affairs. That way I don't end up with 4 or 5 different rounds for the same caliber.
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 4:07:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 7/19/2004 4:21:56 AM EST by ICU]
www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/bux.ppt -Justin

From DocGKR "Black Hills 73 gr JHP Moly Match, Lot#99-9 1203032389, AR15 16" 1/7, 5 shot average:
Vel = 2516 f/s Pen = 12.0" Depth to initiation of yaw (neck) = 2.8" Max TC diam = 3.9" at 5.1" RD = 0.50" RL = 0.20" RW = 28.2 gr"


Also

"The Berger 73 gr, despite what is described on their website, does not do well with a 1/9 twist--it really needs to have a 1/8 or 1/7 twist, especially out of 16" and shorter barrels."
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 6:05:16 AM EST
I would like to see gelatin tests for the 68 or 69 gr loadings using Hornady/Sierra bullets. They are widely available and of wider use than the 73 Berger. Heck, they use the 68 in the Federal Gold Medal Match, and this load is used right out of the box by Austin SWAT.
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 6:41:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I would like to see gelatin tests for the 68 or 69 gr loadings using Hornady/Sierra bullets. They are widely available and of wider use than the 73 Berger. Heck, they use the 68 in the Federal Gold Medal Match, and this load is used right out of the box by Austin SWAT.



Here are some stats, no pics though. www.mcw-tech.com/hiperform/68-69GrData.htm -Justin
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 9:19:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
I would like to see gelatin tests for the 68 or 69 gr loadings using Hornady/Sierra bullets. They are widely available and of wider use than the 73 Berger. Heck, they use the 68 in the Federal Gold Medal Match, and this load is used right out of the box by Austin SWAT.



Already been done - the 68gr (12.1" pen) Hornady and the 69gr SMK (14.7" pen) is on Dr Roberts 'B' list (if your rifle can't handle the 75/77gr loads). IIRC the FBI uses the 69gr SMK.

This is a quote from Dr. Roberts on another forum:

Here are some published results fired at 10 feet from a 16” 1/7 twist:

Roberts GK: “The Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Carbines Compared With 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant.”. Wound Ballistics Review. 3(4):16-28, 1998.

Load, Lot #, Vel, Pen cm/in, TC max diam (cm), RD”, RL”, RW gr, % Frag

Bare Gel:
Black Hills 68 gr JHP, 504041253, 2615, 30.8, 12.1, 9.0, 0.39, 0.23, 31.5, 53.6%,
Fed 69 gr JHP-BT Match 223M, 29B-0445, 2646, 37.4, 14.7, 10.0, 0.40, 0.19, 27.5, 60.2%
Win 69 gr JHP-BT Match S223M, 31LE61, 2758, 30.1, 11.9, 8.5, 0.36, 0.16, 17.5, 74.6%

Through Interior Wall w/Gel Block positioned 10 cm behind wall:
Black Hills 68 gr JHP, 504041253, 2939, 27.0, 10.6, 8.0, 0.49, 0.27, 36.8, 45.9%
Fed 69 gr JHP-BT Match 223M, 29B-0445, 2637, 30.3, 11.9, 10.0, 0.39, 0.32, 40.2, 41.7%
Win 69 gr JHP-BT Match S223M, 31LE61, 2758, 30.1, 11.9, 7.0, 0.34, 0.16, 14.1, 79.5%

There are no differences between a 16” 1/9 vs. 1/7 for the 68/69 gr bullets. The BH load using the 68 gr Horn BTHP w/cannelure has a bit shorter neck than the 69 gr SMK, although both work well—choose which is most accurate & reliable from your weapon. If both are equivalent, choose the more affordable load so you can purchase more and thus can afford to practice more often.

Link Posted: 7/19/2004 11:15:02 AM EST
Thanks for the reply gentlemen. Are there pics available on any of these sites?
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 11:32:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Thanks for the reply gentlemen. Are there pics available on any of these sites?


No pics on the site I referenced.
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 2:30:59 PM EST
Damn, I was really hoping the 73's would be the solution for my 1/9 twist guns. Arghhhhh, it should be a crime to produce a 5.56mm rifle that doesn't use a 1/7 twist rate!
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 3:28:49 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 3:30:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 7/19/2004 10:16:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By brouhaha:

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
Damn, I was really hoping the 73's would be the solution for my 1/9 twist guns. Arghhhhh, it should be a crime to produce a 5.56mm rifle that doesn't use a 1/7 twist rate!




I'm hoping that next weekend I can test it out of my 16" 1/9. If I can spare the time to drive across town, I'll go to a range with both a 100 and 200yd range.

Otherwise, you'll be stuck with results from 100



Hey, 100 works for me! If it's farther out I'll likely be reaching for my Springfield M1A NM anyway.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:42:31 PM EST
Thats for the info. It's getting a lot harder to keep up with all the new heavy bullet loads.
Link Posted: 8/22/2004 8:50:07 PM EST
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:05:56 PM EST
Brou, The 73 gr. Bergers work well in my 16" 1x9 twist barrel. They shot reasonably well, although not as accurate as the 69 gr. SMK. I have'nt chroned any yet, but they grouped well and were reliable with my load of Varget and Fed. 205.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:37:02 PM EST
zhukov, I didn't know federal loaded the 68. I thought they only loaded the 69.

Isn't it interesting what 100 fps will do. I've seen the ballistics on the ranger sight and they got it (69) going 3090 fps. Obviously from a 24" barrel. But man that's smoking. Their 64 psp power point plus is published at that same velocity. It seems their loading is nearing a nato pressure. But they call it a match .223. I didn't figure it would behave so differently, but according to that link, it does. If I could get it, I'd like to try it out sometime. Any comments on this.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:41:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By JJREA:
zhukov, I didn't know federal loaded the 68. I thought they only loaded the 69.



May be my bad. I always get the two confused....
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:48:07 PM EST
plus, that velocity on the second black hills load has to be a typo. There isn't no 300 fps difference. Plus, it's not very comforting that the 2nd test showed that the wall didn't slow it down nearly at all. You still got deep penetration. Everybody can flame me if they want but to me that doesn't prove that the .223 is better for wall penetration. At least not those bullets. I may be reading that wrong but it seems they twerent affecting barely none. Everytime I think I got something worked out in my head the info just goofs me up.
Link Posted: 8/23/2004 4:53:52 PM EST
what I meant by "better" for wall penetration was that it breaks up more than other bullets. And that it may. But you know what, if some poor bastard was on the other side, adios. I suppose the larger calibers would zip on through barely unaffected, but whatever. I'm telling you that's why the le people go with them light bullets. Whether you agree with that philosophy it or not. Markm, can I get a witness?
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