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Posted: 2/27/2013 9:04:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2013 9:50:17 AM EDT by IAmA_EricHolder_AMA]
I've been searching around and can't seem to find a straight answer. Does anyone know what material R-Gun's phosphate bolt is made from? I've found info that their NIBx bolts are Carpenter 158, but can't seem to find info on their regular bolts. Everything I'm reading says the carriers are 8620. Also, any definitive info on HPT/MPI?

I'd email them, but from what I've read all they'll tell me is "Mil-Spec."


Dear R-Guns,

I'd like to date your sister. How do you fell about that?

Yours Truly,
IAmA_EricHolder_AMA



Deal IAmA_EricHolder_AMA,

It's Milspec.

Yours Truly,
R-Guns
Link Posted: 2/27/2013 9:09:13 AM EDT
Your username disturbs me



Link Posted: 2/27/2013 9:10:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jaw187:
Your username disturbs me





Ask me anything.
Link Posted: 2/27/2013 9:12:27 AM EDT
found this for you, might help you out

Link Posted: 2/27/2013 9:17:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jaw187:
found this for you, might help you out



I found that one, but the R-Guns answer is referencing their NIBx parts. I would assume it's the same part with a different coating, but I figure I shouldn't assume too much when they're not up-front with the info.
Link Posted: 2/27/2013 9:18:50 AM EDT
Also, PSA sells an 8620 BCG and state that the bolt is 8620. I've seen a thread where the guy received said part and it was stamped R-G. That's what makes me wonder.
Link Posted: 2/27/2013 10:30:00 PM EDT
Why not as the company that makes them for R-Guns?

http://www.toolcraftinc.com/
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 3:50:57 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2013 4:04:53 AM EDT by Richard-ar15]
The actual "mil-spec" dictates that bolts be MP tested and engraved with a proof mark if they pass, right?

Vendors who throw around the term "mil-spec" as if that should end the discussion don't impress me. The purpose of a mil-spec is to hold manufacturers and vendors to a standard, because people trying to sell stuff will usually cut corners to save money and then lie about it if you let them.

Link Posted: 2/28/2013 4:05:02 AM EDT
Originally Posted By KJB:
Why not as the company that makes them for R-Guns?

http://www.toolcraftinc.com/


They only make the carrier.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 6:51:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Why not as the company that makes them for R-Guns?

http://www.toolcraftinc.com/


They only make the carrier.


Toolcraft is not the manufacturer for R Guns, they are made in house with the correct materials as specified per Mil Spec, run these with confidence.....I have actually spoken to them on this issue, they are really tired of the rumors.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 8:34:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/28/2013 8:38:01 AM EDT by alaskas]
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Toolcraft is not the manufacturer for R Guns, they are made in house with the correct materials as specified per Mil Spec, run these with confidence.....I have actually spoken to them on this issue, they are really tired of the rumors.


There is a lot more to a mil-spec bolt than a third party saying that it is made it out of (unspecified) "correct materials".

If R Guns is tired of rumors then they, not you, should write down exactly what the build specs are for the bolts they sell and put it out for every bolt and BCG listing they sell. If every one is C158, say so. If some are 8620, say so. If they are shot peened, HPT, then MPI, then say so. Because until R Guns says so everything is a rumor, including you saying they are made with the correct materials (which still doesn't tell me which steel it is made of, and says loudly to me that they may NOT be shot peened or HPT/MPI).

Words mean things. When a rapidly growing ARF vendor stopped listing HPT/MPI bolts, most people didn't notice at first. Then on some BCGs they stopped listing C158, and listed 8620 bolts. So which bolt is which? What steel? HPT/MPI, or just MPI (which many consider fairly worthless without first HPT). Or by guess, by gosh, and by golly I got what I got and I should shut up and take it?!?

See how that whole rumor thing works?


ETA: I'm not trying to be an ass. I may be one, but I'm not trying! If R Guns doesn't want rumors, it is really easy to list each bolt and BCG with detailed specs. As an example, BCM has based their entire business (and success) on honest and detailed specs for their products.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 8:41:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Why not as the company that makes them for R-Guns?

http://www.toolcraftinc.com/


They only make the carrier.


Toolcraft is not the manufacturer for R Guns, they are made in house with the correct materials as specified per Mil Spec, run these with confidence.....I have actually spoken to them on this issue, they are really tired of the rumors.


A small gun shop located in a MALL is producting there own bolts in house... I high doubt that. Even majority of major AR "manufactors" get these outsourced.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 8:58:44 AM EDT
Nevermind.....
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 9:45:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Nevermind.....


You said they were tired of rumors; so are customers. You obviously have talked to them. If for some reason they are unaware of what AR customers expect, then tell them what people expect; it isn't hard.

Example (copied and pasted from BCM BCG page):

Features
•Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel
•HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
•MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
•Shot Peened Bolt
•Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
•Chrome Lined Gas Key
•Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
•Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
•Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
•Tool Steel Extractor
•BCM Extractor Spring
•Black Extractor Insert
•Mil-Spec Crane O-Ring

Link Posted: 2/28/2013 10:31:10 AM EDT


OP, did you just dupe yourself???

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1447965_R_Guns_Bolt_Materials.html&page=1

Link Posted: 2/28/2013 12:26:29 PM EDT
My brother in law got a PSA BCG with an RG carrier but a MP stamped bolt. Was marketed as one of their "premium" BCGs.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 12:57:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:


OP, did you just dupe yourself???

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1447965_R_Guns_Bolt_Materials.html&page=1



DUPE!
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 3:18:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By alaskas:
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Nevermind.....


You said they were tired of rumors; so are customers. You obviously have talked to them. If for some reason they are unaware of what AR customers expect, then tell them what people expect; it isn't hard.

Example (copied and pasted from BCM BCG page):

Features
•Milspec Carpenter No. 158® steel
•HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
•MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
•Shot Peened Bolt
•Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
•Chrome Lined Gas Key
•Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
•Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners
•Key Staked Per Mil-Spec
•Tool Steel Extractor
•BCM Extractor Spring
•Black Extractor Insert
•Mil-Spec Crane O-Ring



I always wanted to know if ARFcom actually knew what all that means? Seems like everyone is a metallurgist these days.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 4:53:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 762minigun2:
I always wanted to know if ARFcom actually knew what all that means? Seems like everyone is a metallurgist these days.


I am not a metallurgist. I am not a doctor. I am not 'the Doctor'. I did not stay at Motel 6 last night. However, none of those are needed to read a spec list.


This is not [supposed to be] a rant, and is not directed at anyone or any company. But lots of new people have arrived on ARF since the beginning of the Great Panic of Ought-Twelve, many are new to EBRs, and many believe that if it looks the same and the manufacturer says it is the same, so it must be. Yup, you're right! And I'm a French model...

All bolts are made to a spec, but the buyer (in this case the gun or parts company) determines what that spec is. When BCM buys a bolt, those are their specs. The manufacturer meets them, or meets those they can and BCM does the rest. The machine shop may not be set up to phospate. The phosphater is probably not able or willing to HPT bolts. The gas key screws are made by yet another shop, and the staking is done by BCM. But the BCG that I buy is made to and held to those published BCM specs.

Other sellers are not so upfront about their materials, processes or testing. Saying you have Carpenter 158 bolts is great, but that doesn't mean the bolt was shot-peened, or HPT/MPI'd. MPI without HPT doesn't mean much, but many (most?) companies claiming MPI bolts DO NOT STATE that the bolts are first HPT'd. And there are ways to get similar quality assurances without HPT/MPI (in use by at least 2 companies that I would be happy to buy from).

Each of these specs cost money. Machine Company Super-Duper-Best machines bolts for lots of companies, but to different specs. Vendor 'Sure Shot Guns' pays SDB for bolts with shot peening, HPT, then MPI, and proper extractors and springs. Vendor 'Better But Cheaper' buys from SDB too, but they don't pay for shot peening and HPT, they do pay for (and advertise) MPI, and they use superglued together shop floor scraps for extractors. Both are made 'to spec'. Technically, BBC can honestly advertise that their bolts are made of Mil-Spec C158, are MPI'd and have extractors made of the proper steel.

If firearms parts 'makers/manufacturers'/sellers/vendors are not willing to publish their bolt specs, fine. But as a manufacturer (whatever that means) don't be pissed off when someone asks you WTF and doesn't believe that all is golden and sprinkled with fairy dust. Likewise, as a customer don't expect that a generic "mil-spec' statement means anything. The specs for specific parts are called out, listed or published, or they are not. If mystery specs are good enough, then be happy and drive on.

As for me, I am going to drink some mead. It is not mil-spec.
Link Posted: 2/28/2013 9:28:50 PM EDT
So does anyone actually KNOW who makes the bolts that RG sells? I've read they get them from DPMS, but have never seen anything to back that up.

I just received a FA bcg from RG. Not something I really needed, bought it to keep as a spare as the price was $115. Looks just fine, the staking is excellent. Haven't checked the exctractor spring yet.

But is there any factual information as to where they get these things from?

And the link posted above, this carrier doesn't look like the one they show. This one has forward assist cuts past the retaining pin hole and firing pin lube hole.
Link Posted: 3/1/2013 4:00:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By alaskas:
Originally Posted By 762minigun2:
I always wanted to know if ARFcom actually knew what all that means? Seems like everyone is a metallurgist these days.


I am not a metallurgist. I am not a doctor. I am not 'the Doctor'. I did not stay at Motel 6 last night. However, none of those are needed to read a spec list.


This is not [supposed to be] a rant, and is not directed at anyone or any company. But lots of new people have arrived on ARF since the beginning of the Great Panic of Ought-Twelve, many are new to EBRs, and many believe that if it looks the same and the manufacturer says it is the same, so it must be. Yup, you're right! And I'm a French model...

All bolts are made to a spec, but the buyer (in this case the gun or parts company) determines what that spec is. When BCM buys a bolt, those are their specs. The manufacturer meets them, or meets those they can and BCM does the rest. The machine shop may not be set up to phospate. The phosphater is probably not able or willing to HPT bolts. The gas key screws are made by yet another shop, and the staking is done by BCM. But the BCG that I buy is made to and held to those published BCM specs.

Other sellers are not so upfront about their materials, processes or testing. Saying you have Carpenter 158 bolts is great, but that doesn't mean the bolt was shot-peened, or HPT/MPI'd. MPI without HPT doesn't mean much, but many (most?) companies claiming MPI bolts DO NOT STATE that the bolts are first HPT'd. And there are ways to get similar quality assurances without HPT/MPI (in use by at least 2 companies that I would be happy to buy from).

Each of these specs cost money. Machine Company Super-Duper-Best machines bolts for lots of companies, but to different specs. Vendor 'Sure Shot Guns' pays SDB for bolts with shot peening, HPT, then MPI, and proper extractors and springs. Vendor 'Better But Cheaper' buys from SDB too, but they don't pay for shot peening and HPT, they do pay for (and advertise) MPI, and they use superglued together shop floor scraps for extractors. Both are made 'to spec'. Technically, BBC can honestly advertise that their bolts are made of Mil-Spec C158, are MPI'd and have extractors made of the proper steel.

If firearms parts 'makers/manufacturers'/sellers/vendors are not willing to publish their bolt specs, fine. But as a manufacturer (whatever that means) don't be pissed off when someone asks you WTF and doesn't believe that all is golden and sprinkled with fairy dust. Likewise, as a customer don't expect that a generic "mil-spec' statement means anything. The specs for specific parts are called out, listed or published, or they are not. If mystery specs are good enough, then be happy and drive on.

As for me, I am going to drink some mead. It is not mil-spec.


Yeah. Until R-Guns starts publishing information, I'm not trusting them. As soon as I can find a BCM, the R-guns BCG is going on the EE.

Link Posted: 3/1/2013 3:58:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TVLL62CAL:
Originally Posted By semperfiws6:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Why not as the company that makes them for R-Guns?

http://www.toolcraftinc.com/


They only make the carrier.


Toolcraft is not the manufacturer for R Guns, they are made in house with the correct materials as specified per Mil Spec, run these with confidence.....I have actually spoken to them on this issue, they are really tired of the rumors.


This is a bunch of B.S. They do not make anything in house- I've been in the shop and in the basement as well. The carriers come from Toolcraft. Only recently have they marked the carriers R-G. Up until sometime last year they were marked 1B1B6 which is the cage code for Toolcraft. If the bolts don't come from Toolcraft they come from a small machine shop in Elk Grove Village, IL that is a subcontractor for a major defense contractor. Whether or not they are made to the same spec is anyone's guess. That said I have run several of the Rguns bolt carrier groups hard including quite a bit of full auto mag dumps with zero issues. FYI, Everyone I have came with the black insert and O ring installed.
Link Posted: 3/3/2013 8:51:40 AM EDT
Is there any difference in RGUNS NiB bolt and carrier purchased as 2 separate units at $99 and $65 for a total of $164 as compared to their BCG complete at $175. The descriptions seem exactly the same for both. Normal marketing /pricing practices have the cheaper price for the package (BCG compete) as compared to 2 separate costs (bolt, carrier). What am I missing?
Link Posted: 3/3/2013 10:13:41 AM EDT
Assembly will come with the firing pin, cam pin, and firing pin retainer.
Link Posted: 3/3/2013 12:46:47 PM EDT
thanks. I better get another order in for the parts should the rguns bcg ever arrive.
Link Posted: 3/9/2013 6:14:34 AM EDT
I just e-mailed Toolcraft. Maybe we can get answers straight from the source.


Hello,

I have been researching and trying to find answers about the phosphate coated AR-15 bolt carrier groups sold by R-guns. I've read that your company may have manufactured the product in question. Can you confirm whether or not this is true?

If so, I would like to know what type of metal is used in the bolt and carrier. I would also like to know what type of testing you use on the bolts, whether the bolts are tested individually or by batch, and whether or not it the bolts are shot peened.

Others have tried to ask these questions of R-guns directly, but have not received much in the way of a definitive answer. I feel that if you could provide answers to these questions, and perhaps some documentation, sales of R-guns BCGs could increase and hopefully provide you with more orders.

Thank you,
Robert
Link Posted: 3/9/2013 8:48:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/9/2013 9:06:15 AM EDT by tapered-pin]
Agreed, it's always better to post everything you know, maybe they don't know what exactly goes into the parts they sell ?? A maybe they do and can't afford to pay someone to update the web listing for an item..

There could be any number of perfectly good reasons for the vague description, but there should be some paperwork somewhere that tells them what goes into their product, and their job would be made easier if they had it in hand to send to people when the questions stated popping up.
Link Posted: 3/9/2013 12:27:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tapered-pin:
Agreed, it's always better to post everything you know, maybe they don't know what exactly goes into the parts they sell ?? A maybe they do and can't afford to pay someone to update the web listing for an item..

There could be any number of perfectly good reasons for the vague description, but there should be some paperwork somewhere that tells them what goes into their product, and their job would be made easier if they had it in hand to send to people when the questions stated popping up.


My thought is that r-guns just isn't incredibly well informed. They must buy their parts from vendors claiming to be "mil-spec" and think that answer is good enough.
Link Posted: 3/9/2013 3:49:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By IAmA_EricHolder_AMA:
I just e-mailed Toolcraft. Maybe we can get answers straight from the source.


Hello,

I have been researching and trying to find answers about the phosphate coated AR-15 bolt carrier groups sold by R-guns. I've read that your company may have manufactured the product in question. Can you confirm whether or not this is true?

If so, I would like to know what type of metal is used in the bolt and carrier. I would also like to know what type of testing you use on the bolts, whether the bolts are tested individually or by batch, and whether or not it the bolts are shot peened.

Others have tried to ask these questions of R-guns directly, but have not received much in the way of a definitive answer. I feel that if you could provide answers to these questions, and perhaps some documentation, sales of R-guns BCGs could increase and hopefully provide you with more orders.

Thank you,
Robert


I can guarantee that they didn't do any testing on bolts. Toolcraft only makes carriers, they don't make bolts.
Link Posted: 3/15/2013 8:30:40 PM EDT

Ever hear back from Tool Craft?

Link Posted: 3/17/2013 9:49:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/17/2013 9:53:35 AM EDT by IAmA_EricHolder_AMA]
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:

Ever hear back from Tool Craft?



Sorry, just got back from a week long hike. I got an e-mail from them while I was out.


[IAmA_EricHolder_AMA],

Good afternoon. Thank you for contacting our company.

We only manufacture the Key & Bolt Carrier and not the bolt. Our carriers are made from 8620 material and the phosphate is to the instructions below. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance. I appreciate your trying to help R Guns. We do manufacture for their company. Have a great afternoon.

FINISH 5.3.1.2 OF MIL-STD-171
EXCEPT SURFACES WITH 1.2.2.2
FINISH INDICATED IN NOTE 3 OF
DRAWING

In appreciation,

Levonda Smith
Operations Manager
Toolcraft Inc. of NC
1877 Rutherford Road
Marion, NC 28752
828-659-7379 Business
828-659-7329 Fax
828-442-0299 Cell

"You could have chosen anyone and you chose us. For that we are MOST grateful."




That looks like good news on the carriers, though I wasn't too worried about them. So does anyone have a clue who might make the actual bolts?
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 9:41:43 AM EDT
*crickets* No clues as to who MFGs the bolts?

Mine has no markings that I can find. Hoping some of the older ones do.
Link Posted: 3/20/2013 11:08:59 AM EDT
It could be almost any oil hardening tool steel the machine shops are using as long as it's the right diameter stock. Whoever buys the materials gets a mill report that they likely never look at and throw away.

Carpenter 158 is just a brand name. The same material is sold generally as ANSI P6.

A couple of entertaining articles:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/alternate-material-carpenter-158-a-199836/

http://cartech.ides.com/datasheet.aspx?i=101&E=100

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