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Posted: 10/31/2006 8:59:40 AM EDT
I understand that Rock River Arms only produces US Property marked lowers for one of their dealers as a novelty. I have one myself that I picked up in a trade. Now I'm starting to wonder if this is such a good idea. My concern is that if I get stopped and some cop who isn't a well informed arfcommer finds an AR15 marked US Property in my car then I'm probably going to have to go for a ride. Sure, you probably won't have a problem getting any charges dropped once the serial number trace comes back clean, but there would be a hastle up until then and an arrest on your permenant record.

What do y'all think? Am I being paranoid again?
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 9:06:12 AM EDT
[#1]
Tag for responses.  I've kinda been wondering the same thing about one of my LMT lowers marked "for government of law enforcement use only."  I would imagine that the majority of Barney Fife's won't know that it doesn't mean anything.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 9:15:51 AM EDT
[#2]
I dont think you will have any problems...Think of all the mags out there now that state for Law enforcement use only...If you get in a pickle because of this, you should be in trouble other than having a rifle that says US Property...why were they even looking at the rifle unless you did something else wrong.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 9:22:11 AM EDT
[#3]
If it does occur it will be a hassel it is not impossible....
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 9:27:29 AM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:
I dont think you will have any problems...Think of all the mags out there now that state for Law enforcement use only


I dumped all of my 'Law Enforcement Only' mags. I could just see some cop saying "Well if you aren't in law enforcement then why do you have these? Place you hands on the hood for me..."

Besides, if there is another ban then those things are going to be a huge liability to anyone having them.


If you get in a pickle because of this, you should be in trouble other than having a rifle that says US Property...why were they even looking at the rifle unless you did something else wrong.


Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me: "I have a rifle in the trunk."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"

And if you tell the cop that you don't have any weapons in the car and then he searches it and finds a US Property marked rifle in the trunk, well then you're really going for a ride.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 9:34:05 AM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I dont think you will have any problems...Think of all the mags out there now that state for Law enforcement use only


I dumped all of my 'Law Enforcement Only' mags. I could just see some cop saying "Well if you aren't in law enforcement then why do you have these? Place you hands on the hood for me..."

Besides, if there is another ban then those things are going to be a huge liability to anyone having them.


If you get in a pickle because of this, you should be in trouble other than having a rifle that says US Property...why were they even looking at the rifle unless you did something else wrong.


Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me: "I have a rifle in the trunk."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"

And if you tell the cop that you don't have any weapons in the car and then he searches it and finds a US Property marked rifle in the trunk, well then you're really going for a ride.


I think if there is further Fedeal level legislation like the 10 year fiasco from 1994-2004, makers will have to do something 'different' to their markings to differentiate the 'stuff' that was made between Oct 2004 and the 'start' of the next madness.  But who knows.

Note to all - get out and vote, and cajole/drag your friends and family to vote, too.  Pelosi and the bunch are posied to make big gains next week, and if Dems get a majority in Congress..........well, I think that if there is legislation passed in this arena, it will make 1994 stuff seem like it was no big deal (or infringement on our rights and enjoyment of firearms).  If the next one comes, I think its gonna be a doozey.

But I have a US Prop RRA lower myself, and its one of the best built ones Ive ever owned.  But yes, Ive thought about that as well, and have discussed with friends the same topic.  Its not enough for me to get rid of it, and I take it to the range all the time.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:12:24 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
I understand that Rock River Arms only produces US Property marked lowers for one of their dealers as a novelty. I have one myself that I picked up in a trade. Now I'm starting to wonder if this is such a good idea. My concern is that if I get stopped and some cop who isn't a well informed arfcommer finds an AR15 marked US Property in my car then I'm probably going to have to go for a ride. Sure, you probably won't have a problem getting any charges dropped once the serial number trace comes back clean, but there would be a hastle up until then and an arrest on your permenant record.

What do y'all think? Am I being paranoid again?


What dealer does this?  I am interested in maybe buying one.  
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 10:20:08 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand that Rock River Arms only produces US Property marked lowers for one of their dealers as a novelty. I have one myself that I picked up in a trade. Now I'm starting to wonder if this is such a good idea. My concern is that if I get stopped and some cop who isn't a well informed arfcommer finds an AR15 marked US Property in my car then I'm probably going to have to go for a ride. Sure, you probably won't have a problem getting any charges dropped once the serial number trace comes back clean, but there would be a hastle up until then and an arrest on your permenant record.

What do y'all think? Am I being paranoid again?


What dealer does this?  I am interested in maybe buying one.  

Legal Transfers LLC.  You can find him in the EE.  The codeword for the 10% discount is to tell him he's a "kitchen table dealer".  
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:12:12 PM EDT
[#8]


Quoted:

Legal Transfers LLC.  You can find him in the EE.  The codeword for the 10% discount is to tell him he's a "kitchen table dealer".  



Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:13:06 AM EDT
[#9]
I know people whove gone by Legal transfers before he got the new building.He was working out of the buildings cellar when he first started and those rants of his is the thing that keeps me from dealing with him...its like fire and brimstone in his adds..."Strike back at the kitchen table dealers"Bla bla,bla bla blabla bla,.Ive gotten some excellent quality parts and prices from kitchen table dealers
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 5:33:46 AM EDT
[#10]
I can't see how having a US Property mark on your Rock River is going to cause you trouble, most cops know a thing or two believe it or not and wouldn't think that the weapon is hot or obtained through other means.  Now if your Rock River had US Property and safe, semi, and burst on it and you weren't a Class III then I'd start to worry but at this point I'd say you're just being paranoid.  
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 6:03:00 AM EDT
[#11]
checks of stolen firearms are done on scene.. so I wouldnt worry about that
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 6:25:06 AM EDT
[#12]
Don't worry about it.

In the event that you run into an officer who was not aware of the post ban markings, the worst that will happen is you will be detained for a bit longer while they consult with a supervisor.

You can expect that if an officer has reason to look at your firearms, then they are going to run the serial numbers to check for stolen. If they are not reported stolen and the officer has no reason to believe you were involved in a crime, then you will be released.

Lets think about how many of us have US Surplus that is marked "Government Property". As long as it dosent say "M16" next to it, I think you will be OK. Anyone with a C3 will know to produce their paperwork immediately.

IF you are one of those jokers who likes to have your selector engraved with "Burst" or "Auto" on a semi-auto weapon, expect that your weapon will be confiscated and held for a BATFE inspector. The average street cop is not going to be amused by your "clone" of a fully automatic weapon, and will not be able to tell by looking at the fire control group.

Most cops aren't gun nuts. But they aren't stupid either.

Bottom line.......don't speed or otherwise break the law when you are in possession of your firearms. It will make it a lot easier on everyone.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 6:43:09 AM EDT
[#13]
Just remember that they never have the right to look in your trunk or other locked containers.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 6:55:54 AM EDT
[#14]

Quoted:
Just remember that they never have the right to look in your trunk or other locked containers.


never? thats a very very broad assumption.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 7:07:39 AM EDT
[#15]
Gov't / LEO Only markings are ugly anyway. I'd never buy a firearm that had them on it.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 7:21:59 AM EDT
[#16]
If you are worried about ban era mags in your possession just go to the BATF webpage and print off the official statement regarding the end of the AWB and possession of mags and "AW's" by not LEO personel.

Cover it in plastic and put it in your shooting box or whatever.  

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 7:34:34 AM EDT
[#17]
You might get a look.. Probably all it would be. I have shot my M16 at our indoor range next to uniformed State Patrol officers multiple times.. All I get is a smile and a thumbs up.

Dont be a dick about it and you will be fine.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:34:15 AM EDT
[#18]
remove the tinfoil from your cap.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:38:24 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Just remember that they never have the right to look in your trunk or other locked containers.


never? thats a very very broad assumption.


Unless they have probable cause.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 8:43:12 AM EDT
[#20]
+1

You may never know when someone driving the same vehicle as you OR fitting your description just committed a violent crime.

How long to do think it takes to get a search warrant? How many exceptions to the search warrant rule do you think there are?

Don't EVER get into a position of "knowing your rights" unless you TRUELY know your rights.

Suffice to say that if a law enforcement officer is investigating a cime and wants to know what is inside a locked container in your vehicle, he has MANY, MANY legally acceptable methods to do so.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:19:47 AM EDT
[#21]

Anyone with a C3 will know to produce their paperwork immediately.


a class III is a dealer's license. you do not need a license to own title II devices, you need to simply pay a tax (and grovel like the peasant you are for permission to pay the tax). further - and this is straight from a batfe agent - no one except a batfe agent has a lawful right to even ask to see your paperwork. i imagine things may be different in states with their own laws and it would most definitely smooth things over with mr. policeman if you were to volutarily submit the paperwork for his perusal. just want to be clear about things.


when a police officer asks permission to do something you DO NOT have to grant said permission - that's why he's asking. that said, if you want to see a further erosion of our civil liberties and to slip further into a police state, by all means, give him permission to paw through your private things looking for a reason to arrest you. if, however you would like to stand up on your hind legs and help stop this erosion of the greatest society ever than reach up inside your pussy, pull your testicles out and tell him "no."

i agree that you shouldn't have any problems unless you run into a barney fife. i've had conversations with some officers that i had a hard time believing were capable of spelling their name. most cops, though are pretty smart, decent folks and, after running a serial number and discovering that the firearm in question has not been reported stolen, they will *gasp* conclude it is not a stolen weapon.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 9:35:12 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
If you are worried about ban era mags in your possession just go to the BATF webpage and print off the official statement regarding the end of the AWB and possession of mags and "AW's" by not LEO personel.

Cover it in plastic and put it in your shooting box or whatever.  



I did the same thing on Sept. 14th, 2004. I keep a copy in my range bag and one in the glove box of my truck. Yes, it may be tin-foilish to do so, but there's a lot of officers out there that don't know a thing about gun laws.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:04:03 AM EDT
[#23]
Practically speaking, and aside from my personal opinion that "US Property" marked RRA receivers are cheesy, one is labeling their own personal property as being the property of someone else, even if it is the US gov't.  Quite silly and undoubtedly it has or will lead to confusion at an inopportune time.

"For Gov't/ LE Use Only" is far more common to see and I think most LE types have read the bulletins, talked shop enough to know what the true story is about this marking.  I wouldn't worry as much about this one.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:20:06 AM EDT
[#24]
One thing to think about, US Property has not been used since WWII to mark govt weapons, and then the only ones Ive seen are 45's marked that way.  No current issue AR says US Property, they say "Property of U.S. Government"

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 10:21:35 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:

a class III is a dealer's license. you do not need a license to own title II devices, you need to simply pay a tax (and grovel like the peasant you are for permission to pay the tax). further - and this is straight from a batfe agent - no one except a batfe agent has a lawful right to even ask to see your paperwork. i imagine things may be different in states with their own laws and it would most definitely smooth things over with mr. policeman if you were to volutarily submit the paperwork for his perusal. just want to be clear about things.


Maybe I should have stated that a little clearer. I was stating anyone with a Class III weapon.

Indiana Code 35-47-5-8: A person who owns or possesses a machine gun commits a Class C felony.

You don't have to provide me with the appropriate paperwork, however failure to do so will result in your weapon being confiscated and you being arrested, jailed, and charged with a Class C Felony. So yes, it is voluntary.

Most states also have statutes covering NFA items. If you cannot prove that you are legally possesing the NFA item under US Code, then expect to take a ride and wave bye-bye to your expensive toy.



when a police officer asks permission to do something you DO NOT have to grant said permission - that's why he's asking. that said, if you want to see a further erosion of our civil liberties and to slip further into a police state, by all means, give him permission to paw through your private things looking for a reason to arrest you. if, however you would like to stand up on your hind legs and help stop this erosion of the greatest society ever than reach up inside your pussy, pull your testicles out and tell him "no."


I can tell that you do not have a lot of contact with Law Enforcement. That is a good thing. You do need to realize something. Many times in the course of my duty I "ask" someone to do something. I am not "asking" for permission. I am "asking" to be polite and avoide further escalation of tension. Many time I ask people to do things that I as a Officer carrying out my duty ALREADY have legal justification to do weather you want me to or not. There are also MANY times when I already have probable cause to get a search warrant, but to save you and I from further delay I may simply ask for permission to look for the items I suspect you may possess. If you refuse, as is your right, then it really only takes 20-30 minutes to get a search warrant in my city.

If you think something is wrong, feel free to exercise your rights. However you better be 100% sure of what your "rights" are. Police officers do this day in and day out. "WE" know what your rights are better than you do. It's our job. I have lost count of how many people I have arrested who "believed" I was voilating thier rights. They believe that right up to the point that the Judge sentences them.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:25:03 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
Maybe I should have stated that a little clearer. I was stating anyone with a Class III weapon.


There's no such thing as a "Class III weapon."
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:47:40 AM EDT
[#27]
a class III is a dealer's license. you do not need a license to own title II devices, you need to simply pay a tax


Having a Class III Dealer's License is one of the few ways us mere civilians can own a Title II device at a reasonable cost.  

Legalistic games can be played with the words, but:

  (1)  The Tax Stamp IS a defacto license.

  (2)  The Tax Return (sorry, I forget the form number) is a defacto registration.

Call it anything you like, but the fact is the owner and machinegun are registered, and the owner is licensed.

(Edited to fix the bold on the quote)
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 11:51:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me: "I have a rifle in the trunk."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"



Try that again:

Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me:  "No."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"

Me:  "Yes, I do mind.  I do not give you permission to search."

Cop:  "I can get a warrant in 30 minutes."

Me:  "You can probably do that, but I still don't give permission to search my vehicle.  If we are through here, am I free to leave?"

Then STFU.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:38:20 PM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:
Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me: "I have a rifle in the trunk."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"



Try that again:

Cop: "Do you have any weapons in the car?"

Me:  "No."

Cop: "Mind if I take a look?"

Me:  "Yes, I do mind.  I do not give you permission to search."

Cop:  "I can get a warrant in 30 minutes."

Me:  "You can probably do that, but I still don't give permission to search my vehicle.  If we are through here, am I free to leave?"

Then STFU.


Exactly the way to handle it.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:40:34 PM EDT
[#30]
May I humbly suggest we take this to the police forum in General topics and get anserws from real LE
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 12:44:15 PM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:

Having a Class III Dealer's License is one of the few ways us mere civilians can own a Title II device at a reasonable cost.  

Legalistic games can be played with the words, but:

  (1)  The Tax Stamp IS a defacto license.

  (2)  The Tax Return (sorry, I forget the form number) is a defacto registration.

Call it anything you like, but the fact is the owner and machinegun are registered, and the owner is licensed.

(Edited to fix the bold on the quote)


While I understand what you're saying, in the firearms world a "license" indicates some form of doing business.  Individuals are not licensed to do anything even with a approved Form 1 or 4. And if they are licensed, then they cease to be individuals and are "licensees" with a whole different set of regulations and priviliges.  A better word to use to describe what you are talking about is "Permit" though there is no such thing at the federal level.  You could call a Form 1 or 4 a form of federal permit.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 1:03:07 PM EDT
[#32]
Form 4 is titled "Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm"

Form 1 is tittled "Application to Make and Register a Firearm"

The item is registered, to you, in the NFA registry. Thats it. There is no title 2 "license" because it doesnt exist.


You can register a vehicle to the DMV but it is not the same as having a drivers license.
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:23:47 PM EDT
[#33]
If you guys really need to know..

Form4     What I have to own my M16

Form1      What I have for the SBR I own.. Of which I was the maker.


I keep copies of them when I take my Title II ( NFA) stuff out to play.

If asked ( which I have never been) I will gladly show paperwork. That doesnt violate my rights, and saves me time.


Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:31:45 PM EDT
[#34]

Quoted:
If you guys really need to know..

Form4     What I have to own my M16

Form1      What I have for the SBR I own.. Of which I was the maker.


I keep copies of them when I take my Title II ( NFA) stuff out to play.

If asked ( which I have never been) I will gladly show paperwork. That doesnt violate my rights, and saves me time.




Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:34:33 PM EDT
[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you guys really need to know..

Form4     What I have to own my M16

Form1      What I have for the SBR I own.. Of which I was the maker.


I keep copies of them when I take my Title II ( NFA) stuff out to play.

If asked ( which I have never been) I will gladly show paperwork. That doesnt violate my rights, and saves me time.




www.aberdeenbookstore.com/images/papersplease.jpg



You tell me what part of being a dick helps? Why in the hell would I want to be a fuck head and have a 12K plus RR taken while someone sorts out the mess that the photocopy in my gun case will take care of?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 2:55:39 PM EDT
[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

a class III is a dealer's license. you do not need a license to own title II devices, you need to simply pay a tax (and grovel like the peasant you are for permission to pay the tax). further - and this is straight from a batfe agent - no one except a batfe agent has a lawful right to even ask to see your paperwork. i imagine things may be different in states with their own laws and it would most definitely smooth things over with mr. policeman if you were to volutarily submit the paperwork for his perusal. just want to be clear about things.


Maybe I should have stated that a little clearer. I was stating anyone with a Class III weapon.

Indiana Code 35-47-5-8: A person who owns or possesses a machine gun commits a Class C felony.

You don't have to provide me with the appropriate paperwork, however failure to do so will result in your weapon being confiscated and you being arrested, jailed, and charged with a Class C Felony. So yes, it is voluntary.

Most states also have statutes covering NFA items. If you cannot prove that you are legally possesing the NFA item under US Code, then expect to take a ride and wave bye-bye to your expensive toy.



when a police officer asks permission to do something you DO NOT have to grant said permission - that's why he's asking. that said, if you want to see a further erosion of our civil liberties and to slip further into a police state, by all means, give him permission to paw through your private things looking for a reason to arrest you. if, however you would like to stand up on your hind legs and help stop this erosion of the greatest society ever than reach up inside your pussy, pull your testicles out and tell him "no."


I can tell that you do not have a lot of contact with Law Enforcement. That is a good thing. You do need to realize something. Many times in the course of my duty I "ask" someone to do something. I am not "asking" for permission. I am "asking" to be polite and avoide further escalation of tension. Many time I ask people to do things that I as a Officer carrying out my duty ALREADY have legal justification to do weather you want me to or not. There are also MANY times when I already have probable cause to get a search warrant, but to save you and I from further delay I may simply ask for permission to look for the items I suspect you may possess. If you refuse, as is your right, then it really only takes 20-30 minutes to get a search warrant in my city.

If you think something is wrong, feel free to exercise your rights. However you better be 100% sure of what your "rights" are. Police officers do this day in and day out. "WE" know what your rights are better than you do. It's our job. I have lost count of how many people I have arrested who "believed" I was voilating thier rights. They believe that right up to the point that the Judge sentences them.


So, do you sometimes request and obtain a search warrant in 20-30 minutes based solely on the refusal to submit to a search?
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 3:31:25 PM EDT
[#37]
I'm also a LEO. And refusing consent to search is not justification for a search warant. I too often ask for consent when I have probable cause for a search warrant. A search warrant does get into the local paper because pc often lays out much of the case.

We have rights not to allow searches. But LE also has tools to apply for search warrants and to detain folks (when necessary) while they seek those search warrants.

And search warrnats are usually not needed for cars. If you have PC, you can usually search without a search warrant.

Like USMC said, most cops (not all) know rights and the law better than most folks (lawyers included).  
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 3:35:36 PM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
If you are worried about ban era mags in your possession just go to the BATF webpage and print off the official statement regarding the end of the AWB and possession of mags and "AW's" by not LEO personel.

Cover it in plastic and put it in your shooting box or whatever.  



I did the same thing on Sept. 14th, 2004. I keep a copy in my range bag and one in the glove box of my truck. Yes, it may be tin-foilish to do so, but there's a lot of officers out there that don't know a thing about gun laws.





A BIG +1


Alot of guys assume LEO know about gun laws


I can see it happen

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 3:41:55 PM EDT
[#39]

Quoted:
I'm also a LEO. And refusing consent to search is not justification for a search warant. I too often ask for consent when I have probable cause for a search warrant. A search warrant does get into the local paper because pc often lays out much of the case.

We have rights not to allow searches. But LE also has tools to apply for search warrants and to detain folks (when necessary) while they seek those search warrants.

And search warrnats are usually not needed for cars. If you have PC, you can usually search without a search warrant.

Like USMC said, most cops (not all) know rights and the law better than most folks (lawyers included).  



There is no such thing as PC anymore

A LEO can just say that the SUBJECT  looks nervous


If a LEO wants to search he is going to search

Link Posted: 11/1/2006 3:43:34 PM EDT
[#40]

Quoted:
I understand that Rock River Arms only produces US Property marked lowers for one of their dealers as a novelty. I have one myself that I picked up in a trade. Now I'm starting to wonder if this is such a good idea.


I have one of these lowers which I like very much.
It actually created a bit of a stir at the pawn shot (where it was shipped) when they unwrapped it and saw the "US PROPERTY" markings.

I suppose the same is possible with a law enforcement officer, however I have mine registered and engraved as a SBR, and I always have a laminated 50% size copy of the Form 1 paperwork with it.

I would think that most officers would understand the explanation of the engraving, and even if they were skeptical the serial number would come back clean so no worries.



Link Posted: 11/2/2006 9:36:59 AM EDT
[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand that Rock River Arms only produces US Property marked lowers for one of their dealers as a novelty. I have one myself that I picked up in a trade. Now I'm starting to wonder if this is such a good idea.


I have one of these lowers which I like very much.
It actually created a bit of a stir at the pawn shot (where it was shipped) when they unwrapped it and saw the "US PROPERTY" markings.

I suppose the same is possible with a law enforcement officer, however I have mine registered and engraved as a SBR, and I always have a laminated 50% size copy of the Form 1 paperwork with it.

I would think that most officers would understand the explanation of the engraving, and even if they were skeptical the serial number would come back clean so no worries.

www.pbase.com/edwin907/image/68496128/original.jpg




NICE  barrel size?
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 12:19:12 PM EDT
[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:

a class III is a dealer's license. you do not need a license to own title II devices, you need to simply pay a tax (and grovel like the peasant you are for permission to pay the tax). further - and this is straight from a batfe agent - no one except a batfe agent has a lawful right to even ask to see your paperwork. i imagine things may be different in states with their own laws and it would most definitely smooth things over with mr. policeman if you were to volutarily submit the paperwork for his perusal. just want to be clear about things.


Maybe I should have stated that a little clearer. I was stating anyone with a Class III weapon.

Indiana Code 35-47-5-8: A person who owns or possesses a machine gun commits a Class C felony.

You don't have to provide me with the appropriate paperwork, however failure to do so will result in your weapon being confiscated and you being arrested, jailed, and charged with a Class C Felony. So yes, it is voluntary.

Most states also have statutes covering NFA items. If you cannot prove that you are legally possesing the NFA item under US Code, then expect to take a ride and wave bye-bye to your expensive toy.



when a police officer asks permission to do something you DO NOT have to grant said permission - that's why he's asking. that said, if you want to see a further erosion of our civil liberties and to slip further into a police state, by all means, give him permission to paw through your private things looking for a reason to arrest you. if, however you would like to stand up on your hind legs and help stop this erosion of the greatest society ever than reach up inside your pussy, pull your testicles out and tell him "no."


I can tell that you do not have a lot of contact with Law Enforcement. That is a good thing. You do need to realize something. Many times in the course of my duty I "ask" someone to do something. I am not "asking" for permission. I am "asking" to be polite and avoide further escalation of tension. Many time I ask people to do things that I as a Officer carrying out my duty ALREADY have legal justification to do weather you want me to or not. There are also MANY times when I already have probable cause to get a search warrant, but to save you and I from further delay I may simply ask for permission to look for the items I suspect you may possess. If you refuse, as is your right, then it really only takes 20-30 minutes to get a search warrant in my city.

If you think something is wrong, feel free to exercise your rights. However you better be 100% sure of what your "rights" are. Police officers do this day in and day out. "WE" know what your rights are better than you do. It's our job. I have lost count of how many people I have arrested who "believed" I was voilating thier rights. They believe that right up to the point that the Judge sentences them.


actually, i have worked very closely with law enforcement. i'm just not willing to let some dumbass paw through my stuff. see, there is no reason for a cop to ever stop me let alone search but if that were to happen i'm not going to give permission. hey, a cop's gonna do whatever he really wants to do but there's no reason i should lay down and let him violate my rights.

as of now i do not own any title ii devices but when i get around to filing the paperwork for a suppressor and sbr it won't really bother me to hand the paperwork to some dumbass cop that doesn't know any better. here in az there is no law prohibiting title ii devices like you have in your state. therefore it is not a police officer's jurisdiction. if he has reason to believe a federal crime has been committed he has every right to detain me, gather evidence and wait for an appropriate federal agent. could be while on the weekend. will i voluntarily show my paperwork? eh, why not? will i voluntarily let a cop put his dirty meatbeaters on my stuff? hell no. i've known quite a few cops and most are intelligent, honest people but i have met the occasional dumbass. like officer dick (the name has been changed to protect the retarded) in safford, who almost shot me with my own handgun.
Link Posted: 11/2/2006 6:56:05 PM EDT
[#43]
I don't really want anything that says "U.S. Property" or "Law Enforcement Only" on it either.  Mostly because a lot of people (including some cops) HATE it when a citizen is armed.  A lot of them feel that even a law-abiding citizen has no business with a gun, and this is just something else for them to get their panties in a wad about.  

Frankly, the way this country is going, I don't think it will be long before they take away ALL of our gun rights.  We'll end up like those poor Brits who collect "de-activated" guns and even then, have to go through a bunch of paperwork just to get those.

It is amazing how people sit back and let our rights be taken away slowly and surely, a little at a time. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall NOT be infringed"--- yet you can't have more than 10 rounds or an adjustable stock or a barrel that is shorter than some arbitrary length. Give me a break.  Our founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they heard about this bullshit.  Reading the Federalist papers and other writings by the Founders makes it crystal CLEAR what they intended-- for everyone to be able to arm themselves as they see fit.

Also, if you are ever on jury duty you do NOT have to uphold any bullshit gun law.  For example, if they are trying to convict somebody on "gun charges" you can vote to acquit based on nullification (since it violates 2nd Amendment Rights).  This is known as jury nullification, and is one thing they don't inform you about (or even want you to know about).  

Every gun owner should be a member of Gun Owners of America, or NRA, or both.  For about the price of a couple boxes of ammo you can join. I also write and fax my representatives all the time, but I highly doubt most gun owners do.  I think the NRA has around 4 million members and supposedly there are at least 80 million gun owners.  Most people are too "busy" to worry about their rights being stripped from them.  It's easier to resist at the beginning than it is the end......

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